jordan and toyota back in talks

[webber 0]

well if all goes well for EJ jordan my well be running some toyota engines and gearbox's next year as well as getting some airo tips. maby this means that Jordan are turning into toyota's B team. but the bit that gets me is that toyota has lurnd more that jordan in the airo side of f1 that jordan have in more than twice the time

[jagger 0]

Has got to be down to money i think.As it seems to be the only thing E.J is guided by these days,which seems to be reflected in his driver line up each year.It is sad to see a once great front running team slipping further back each year.In my opinion i think Jordan could do with a good clear out of the dead wood staff that have been there for years,and get some fresh new faces with new ideas.Otherwise they will just be running around at the back.

[eddoyle 0]

The Toyota thing has been on and off for at least three seasons. Toyota leaked the details of these discussion when jordan were with Honda in order to embarass both Jordan and Honda esp in Japan.

I disagree that Toyota have made great strides on the aero side, I believe that it is in fact the Aero side of the house that is keeping the toyota cars toward the back of the grid, everyone believes the RAV4 is up there with Ferrari and BMW with raw grunt. Why else would the have spashed out so heavily on former Jordonian Mike Gasgoigne plus support staff ?

It isnt widely known but there continue to be people on jordans staff (dead wood?) with close .. i mean really close .. connections to Toyota still (despite Ove Anderson leaving toyota).

Lets wait and see, the natural home for Jordan to line up with is Mclaren/Mercedes. This has long been Jordans preference hence Heidfeld and Glock, but in the end of the day it boils down to numbers and which team EJ thinks is on the way up and which is on the way down .. and i think the picture is getting clearer.

One things for sure Ford have simply not delivered for Jordan, while the CR5 seems to be an ok engine, an f1 team needs more from a supplier than an engine and the instruction manual. They need support and a joint development plan.. and on this score Fords internal workings have nobled both Jordan & Jag....

I believe there is no chance of Jordan doing a deal with Renault, too much water under the bridge, despite the recent overtures from Renault. Which says more about their desire to save money than it does about their desire to challenge at the front.

Lets see how it plays out .. we live in interesting times

[eddoyle 0]

The Toyota thing has been on and off for at least three seasons. Toyota leaked the details of these discussion when jordan were with Honda in order to embarass both Jordan and Honda esp in Japan.

I disagree that Toyota have made great strides on the aero side, I believe that it is in fact the Aero side of the house that is keeping the toyota cars toward the back of the grid, everyone believes the RAV4 is up there with Ferrari and BMW with raw grunt. Why else would the have spashed out so heavily on former Jordonian Mike Gasgoigne plus support staff ?

It isnt widely known but there continue to be people on jordans staff (dead wood?) with close .. i mean really close .. connections to Toyota still (despite Ove Anderson leaving toyota).

Lets wait and see, the natural home for Jordan to line up with is Mclaren/Mercedes. This has long been Jordans preference hence Heidfeld and Glock, but in the end of the day it boils down to numbers and which team EJ thinks is on the way up and which is on the way down .. and i think the picture is getting clearer.

One things for sure Ford have simply not delivered for Jordan, while the CR5 seems to be an ok engine, an f1 team needs more from a supplier than an engine and the instruction manual. They need support and a joint development plan.. and on this score Fords internal workings have nobled both Jordan & Jag....

I believe there is no chance of Jordan doing a deal with Renault, too much water under the bridge, despite the recent overtures from Renault. Which says more about their desire to save money than it does about their desire to challenge at the front.

Lets see how it plays out .. we live in interesting times

[amjay 0]

well if all goes well for EJ jordan my well be running some toyota engines and gearbox's next year as well as getting some airo tips. maby this means that Jordan are turning into toyota's B team. but the bit that gets me is that toyota has lurnd more that jordan in the airo side of f1 that jordan have in more than twice the time

i think it isn't tht jordan has learned lesser than toyota but more of jordan slacking off maybe due to lack of cash or whatever but the thing is they slacked ... i remember there was a season when HHF put in a few podium finishes in the jordan and i'm not sure of the year but jordan finished 3rd tht year and so did HHF..... back then their aero was good but now it's only about acceptable....

[eddoyle 0]

slacking off maybe due to lack of cash or whatever but the thing is they slacked ... i remember there was a season when HHF put in a few podium finishes in the jordan and i'm not sure of the year but jordan finished 3rd tht year and so did HHF..... back then their aero was good but now it's only about acceptable....

Slacked is not a fair word to use, since Fretzen took the two race wins in 99 and the handful of podiums a number of things have happened

> Aero Development > The importance of aero dynamics has risen substantially in its importance to overall laptimes since 99. Aero capability is largely a function of budget (including wind tunnel facilities and access, & dedicated staff plus organisational backup esp integration with engine, suspention etc. The comparison between Jordan and Toyota could not be more stark on any of these criteria.

> Engine Development - Toyota have themselves developed one of the top 3 engines on the grid which is constructed to work optimally with their chasis to maximise there aero package. In the same Jordan have had to build 4 complete differne chassis around 4 completely different engines. Mugen Honda, Honda, the CR4 and the very different CR5. All of which required a completely new chasis to be built around them and left little scope to progress incrementally season on season. On this benchmark Jordan have actually out performed Toyota, but its a case of bad being better than very bad.

>Tyres -> too much to explain here suffice to say they run on very different tyres

>R&D without getting technical there is so much more to the developmetn of an f1 car from the materials side, the electronics, simulation etc etc. On all of these counts Jordan and Toyota are worlds appart.

The only surprise in all of this is that Toyota are not actually further up the grid ahead of Jordan. Its true to say that Both teams have underperformed of late, Toyota have not made the progress of other teams with less resources e.g. BAR, and Jordan should be closer to Jag.

But lets wait and see .. I expect Toyota to be actually competing for the title certianly within 3 seasons.

[Senna 0]

It is sad to see a once great front running team slipping further back each year.

I’d hardly call Jordan a “once great front running team”! They had a good season in 1999 and an ok season in 1998 but they didn’t do anything like enough to warrant being called a great team. To my understanding of the term, a `great team` implies a team of incredibly talented individuals producing results on a consistent basis over a substantial period of time e.g. Ferrari under the Schumacher revolution. Since 1999 Jordan have got progressively worse and have regressed further and further back the grid. They are a rubbish team, with little commitment to F1 and whose team boss is more concerned with partying and image and this perfectly mirrors their results.

[eddoyle 0]

While I agree Jordan have not earned the title 'Great'. The title 'Rubbish is a bit premature also. 'Currently rubbish' is a probably fair.

Jordan have paid the price of trying to be bold and innovative. Rather than signing up as one of the manufacturers lackey in the past (e.g. Sauber) which would have prevented them from competing they have tried to compete on a very very tight budget particularly in 2003.

The sad reality is being 'bold' in the current battle of the manufacturers will get you nowhere. But because Jordan are more commited to F1 (and longer in f1 in their current guise) than all the manufacturers save Ferrari, McLaren & Williams they will return to the midfield soon. Though its hard to see them even getting a podium (except in amazing circumstances e.g. Brazil 2003) without a miracle.

[C.A.L. 0]

Jordan is abiding his time right now, positioning his Team demeanor to look very disinterested in Mercedes (which is a good idea presently) and have a forward (proactive)outlook to future indevors.

He is actually playing the F1 field nicely ,because this actually makes Ford/Cosworth stronger should he get hooked up to Toyota. Reason is that Cosworth can now concentrate its efforts more towards its present teams.

Minardi really is very far off the pace and they really need to buy someone else's chassis for next year if they were smart or if someone else was smart even to present a fair deal to sell to them.

[webber 0]

OK eddoyle- the engine in the EJ14 is a CR6. its the same engine as what jag have but with out some upgrades. and Ford are not helping Jordan with there engine because Ford has a customer deal with jordan not a works deal its the same with Minardi but you dont here us complaning that thay dont help Minardi.

In the same Jordan have had to build 4 complete differne chassis around 4 completely different engines. Mugen Honda, Honda, the CR4 and the very different CR5. All of which required a completely new chasis to be built around them and left little scope to progress incrementally season on season.

and also every new car is bilt around a new engine (Bar the minardi) jordan should fell lucky that thay have the same engine as jag.

the CR6 is a rather good engine it was pumping out some rell hourse power in Barian in the Jag. but hay Jag might of got a new upgrade.

[webber 0]

Minardi really is very far off the pace and they really need to buy someone else's chassis for next year if they were smart or if someone else was smart even to present a fair deal to sell to them.

i think that minardi should of stayed with the engine thay had in 2002 that way thay can have the full backing on an engine compony. eaven if it is a s##t one

[climber49 0]

eddoyle: Great post Wed 07 re: Engine, Tyres,Aero. Well reasoned and spot on the facts

Whenever the independants are mentioned in the press, you get the usual barrage about how s##t they are. Anyone who has had to run an engineering based project on a tight budget recognises the underlying reality that a team with 700million will always beat a team with 70.

I've been a real admirer of Jordan since the 191. It takes a serious amount of commitment to do the hard yards against teams that bring at least 4 times the budget to each season.

The fact Jordan has been to the top, against the odds is a tribute to this.

During their time they have fostered the talents of arguably some of the best designers, tech directors, engineers and drivers in F1.

Hat's off to Eddy Jordan. The bloke gets off his arse and goes out and gets

$100m, year in year out, to keep the team fed and racing. How many of the critics could do the same?

Red? Silver? Blue and White?.....Nah, bugger it! Yellow will do me fine.

[eddoyle 0]

the engine in the EJ14 is a CR6

correct, apologies I think of it as a step up from last years, i forget sometimes that its actually two steps up from last years jordan engine

and also every new car is bilt around a new engine (Bar of the minardi) jordan should fell lucky that thay have the same engine as jag.

This is not true, most teams try to develop their chassis incrementally year to year in conjunction with other developments. This is so as they can continue to make improvements year on year (assuming the regulations stay the same). Building a completely new chasis around each engine increment is insane, as the same set of learning around strenghts weaknesses under various conditions has to be relearned, and ultimately you go backwards very fast .. The teams that typify this approach most in their development are Ferrari and Jag

[eddoyle 0]

Hat's off to Eddy Jordan. The bloke gets off his arse and goes out and gets

$100m, year in year out, to keep the team fed and racing. How many of the critics could do the same?

Climber : Thanks for the comliment.

I couldnt agree with you more, its about motivation and a desire to achieve and succeed in the face of difficuly odds, taking the many kicks on the way, smililing as you go, and still being around to come out the other side better than when you went in.

It is true that Jordan have gone backwards since 99, but bottom line is they have made a massive contribution to F1 since 91 picking up 4 wins..

Respectfully you have to ask what have Jag, BAR, Sauber, Renault (as Renault), Toyota, even Minardi achieved in the same time ?. All of these teams over the course of the last 13 years have had better means to achieve than jordan. It is EJ's personal drive and charisma that sets him appart. You can only really judge real character in the bad times not the good... I look forwar to see where he takes the team and the sport

[webber 0]

Jordan have had it way easyer than what Minardi have had it. Jordan have all ways had more money and better Drivers

[nojvnof1 0]

I think that if Jordan gets the Toyota engines the team could get up to at least 5th. That engine really is a stonking engine, whilst the chassis isn't that bad. Same for Minardi, they always have good chassis, if only they got decent engines, then they'd be not too bad considering.

[eddoyle 0]

Jordan have it way easier

No they dont.. Eddie Jordan was a bank teller when he joined f1. He had absolutely no money of his own to put into an f1 team. His first seasons racing budget was 1/2 million, based on loans and other personal debts. At one track he wrestled with the bailifs.

Paul Stoddard for example in comparison owned his own airline before going into F1, and before that the Minardi family had substantial personal wealth !!!

The point is if Jordan have had, and continue to have it better than Minardi simply because EJ has fought harder for every $ every day of his life since then.

Having said that I respect what Stoddard has done and is doing, but he was an in much better position to run and F1 team than EJ.

To say Jordan have it easier is to ignore the full history of the teams.

[webber 0]

i ment Jordan as in the team not Jordan as in EJ. EJ must have the close to the biggest balls out of all the team boss's what he has done is quite amazing. but Jordan was an F3 team befour it was an F1 team so he know what he was doing befour he came in. wile Yes the Minardi Family are Rich thay gave nonthing to the Minardi F1 team. PS came in and took on a nelly Bankrupted team and got them to the grid in only somthing like 6 months. since then he has had to stress not knowing if Minardi will make it to the end of the seasion. it is eaven rumed that he has taken money from his airline compony.

[eddoyle 0]

but  Jordan was an F3 team befour it was an F1 team so he know what he was doing befour he came in.

Again Webber you are correct to point out that Eddie Jordan owned Eddie Jordan Racing prior to F1 (entering F1 as F3 champions), but prior to this he was just a bank official.

Regarding PS

it is eaven rumed that he has taken money from his airline compony.

I think this is well known now that he has basically divested himself of his entire stake in European Aviation to focus on his passion.. Commitment like that deserves better results.

[amjay 0]

eddoyle thanks for the insight on the aero, engine etc.

well maybe slacking off was the wrong word to use.... i'll use alister's words then... they have progressively gottten worse and worse..

maybe based on their means they have done a good job and all but the thing is they simply ain't performing.....

[Senna 0]

If Jordan does become effectively Toyota’s B-Team I would think that it would benefit both teams and F1 and so I would positively encourage it…

[webber 0]

eddoyle are u relly EJ. you know so much about jordan and just the hole game. i know you are probly all larfing right now but i just think that your EJ

[Senna 0]

eddoyle are u relly EJ. you know so much about jordan and just the hole game. i know you are probly all larfing right now but i just think that your EJ

Considering the amount of constructive effort Eddie Jordan puts into F1, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was posting on Internet forums instead of making Jordan into a respectable racing outfit.

[juany 0]

eddoyle are u relly EJ. you know so much about jordan and just the hole game. i know you are probly all larfing right now but i just think that your EJ

Considering the amount of constructive effort Eddie Jordan puts into F1, I wouldn

[eddoyle 0]

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