41 replies to this topic

[pabloh20]

Autumnpuma, on Jan 15 2007, 07:17 PM, said:

I was more referring to current ChampCar than vintage CART. I honestly can't remember if Tracy wore glasses back then. He may have as contact lens technology wasn't as good as today...?

I've no idea, Mike, I've never been keen on contacts so never really looked into it as such.  I suppose they have the disposable contacts these days, which they never had years back.  As I say, I just remember being surprised when I saw him wearing glasses in the c#ckpit.

Autumnpuma, on Jan 15 2007, 07:17 PM, said:

I'm not sure I buy that. Ralfie, Bourdais, Tracy and JV were all championship winning drivers who had less-than-perfect eyesight, so in my way of thinking, perfect eyesight is less a factor than, say, reflexes and that undefined ability to 'slow down time'.

This is probably going to sound wrong, but I probably should have said it was Murray's theory of what helped to make up great F1 drivers - not the whole package, just part of the puzzle.  I think he was also referring to the ability to judge distances, etc, I shall try and dig it out again.  That's not to be derogatory about the drivers you mention in anyway, just one of Murray's observations, Mike.

Don't forget, as strange as it sounds, the fact that they wear glasses doesn't mean their sight can't be better than somebody who doesn't wear glasses - I shall attempt to explain that.  They will wear glasses for short sightedness ( I don't think they are reading glasses   ), so the eye can't focus on distant objects properly, however glasses only corrects the focusing problem, not the level of detail the eye can render, or how the brain interprets the information, I guess.  So they may, when they are wearing glasses or contacts, still have exceptional eyesight, as crazy as it sounds!     Anyway, it was just one of Murray's observations......

[pabloh20]

monza gorilla, on Jan 15 2007, 07:41 PM, said:

I remember him putting his specs on after his helmet, same as I've always done. I'm not sure about the distortion thing, but then my glasses aren't very strong so perhaps it gets worse the thicker the lens.
Edit: Of course it does - simple refraction. Schoolboy physics. Forgetful gorilla.

I wouldn't want to be the other drivers on the grid if their glasses are that thick........

I'm not sure about distortion at the periphery, wouldn't you be nearly always looking middle-ish?  My eyes aren't that bad, but the only thing I notice in periphery view is the frame and I would hope that racing drivers' eyes aren't quite as bad as mine!  

[Autumnpuma]

pabloh20, on Jan 15 2007, 04:09 PM, said:

I've no idea, Mike, I've never been keen on contacts so never really looked into it as such.  I suppose they have the disposable contacts these days, which they never had years back.  As I say, I just remember being surprised when I saw him wearing glasses in the c#ckpit.
This is probably going to sound wrong, but I probably should have said it was Murray's theory of what helped to make up great F1 drivers - not the whole package, just part of the puzzle.  I think he was also referring to the ability to judge distances, etc, I shall try and dig it out again.  That's not to be derogatory about the drivers you mention in anyway, just one of Murray's observations, Mike.

Yeah, I'll buy that.

pabloh20, on Jan 15 2007, 04:09 PM, said:

Don't forget, as strange as it sounds, the fact that they wear glasses doesn't mean their sight can't be better than somebody who doesn't wear glasses - I shall attempt to explain that.  They will wear glasses for short sightedness ( I don't think they are reading glasses   ), so the eye can't focus on distant objects properly, however glasses only corrects the focusing problem, not the level of detail the eye can render, or how the brain interprets the information, I guess.  So they may, when they are wearing glasses or contacts, still have exceptional eyesight, as crazy as it sounds!     Anyway, it was just one of Murray's observations......

Well the forces a driver experiences, combined with needing to judge distances quickly and correctly, I can see a momentary blur happening whilst taking the Indy banking that would cause a driver to...ummmm....misjudge the car's placement on the track and perhaps overcorrect...and end up a$$ first into the concrete. Ditto an overtaking situation. I hear you on the 'exceptional eyesight' even with glasses/contacts and I agree. I think that's why they were able to even compete! But the contacts/glasses may be a factor in certain drivers' mistakes....

[pabloh20]

Autumnpuma, on Jan 16 2007, 02:36 AM, said:

Well the forces a driver experiences, combined with needing to judge distances quickly and correctly, I can see a momentary blur happening whilst taking the Indy banking that would cause a driver to...ummmm....misjudge the car's placement on the track and perhaps overcorrect...and end up a$$ first into the concrete. Ditto an overtaking situation. I hear you on the 'exceptional eyesight' even with glasses/contacts and I agree. I think that's why they were able to even compete! But the contacts/glasses may be a factor in certain drivers' mistakes....

This is why I like your posts, Mike, even if I don't necessarily agree with them (not that I am disagreeing in this case), but they are nearly always food for thought!  

I guess it may be a factor, I have never thought about it before, until I was reading this thread.  I suppose I'm coming from a 'glasses wearing' perspective, as I don't have any problems with blur, periphery, etc, you don't really associate the 2 factors - very short sighted, I know, excuse the pun!  Mind you, I imagine it's the same if you don't wear glasses, I guess you don't even consider that a driver's mistake, who doesn't wear glasses, may be related to a sight problem - well, you would hope it wasn't!!  

The thing that occurred to me this morning, I wonder why they haven't had corrective surgery?

Edited by pabloh20, 16 January 2007 - 09:39 AM.

[Autumnpuma]

pabloh20, on Jan 16 2007, 01:39 AM, said:

The thing that occurred to me this morning, I wonder why they haven't had corrective surgery?

Good question......

[Quiet One]

Autumnpuma, on Jan 16 2007, 08:39 PM, said:

Good question......

Well, I've been doing a bit of research at work about the lenses subject. I've found that no one (not even some noted ophtalomologists)had an idea on how the G forces might affect vision besides the brownout/redout syndromes (these caused by the lack/excess of irrigation in the eyes which may cause anything from temporary blindness to dizziness, blackouts and permanent eye damage). The brownout is the most common situation in F1. Brownout or greyout is caused when excessive G forces are applied to the body, usually from vertical G forces (as in planes and rockets) but lateral G forces might contribute to it too. It usually causes tunnel vision, blurry vision and dizzyness but only for very short periods of time and the body fully recovers from it. This condition is independent of the driver's vision for it is merely caused by the interaction of G forces and the bloodstream. This should affect all drivers in rather the same fashion (some might be more sensitive than others but that has nothing to do with eyesight). The only eyesight condition that we could relate to a decaying performance during a race is astigmatism which will almost certainly lead to visual fatigue.
Well, that's all I have for now. Will try to research further, sorry!

[Autumnpuma]

Quiet One, on Jan 16 2007, 02:07 PM, said:

Well, I've been doing a bit of research at work about the lenses subject. I've found that no one (not even some noted ophtalomologists)had an idea on how the G forces might affect vision besides the brownout/redout syndromes (these caused by the lack/excess of irrigation in the eyes which may cause anything from temporary blindness to dizziness, blackouts and permanent eye damage). The brownout is the most common situation in F1. Brownout or greyout is caused when excessive G forces are applied to the body, usually from vertical G forces (as in planes and rockets) but lateral G forces might contribute to it too. It usually causes tunnel vision, blurry vision and dizzyness but only for very short periods of time and the body fully recovers from it. This condition is independent of the driver's vision for it is merely caused by the interaction of G forces and the bloodstream. This should affect all drivers in rather the same fashion (some might be more sensitive than others but that has nothing to do with eyesight). The only eyesight condition that we could relate to a decaying performance during a race is astigmatism which will almost certainly lead to visual fatigue.
Well, that's all I have for now. Will try to research further, sorry!

Excellent stuff! Thanks!

[aterk]

UNDERSTEER

This happens when the front of the car does not have as much grip as the driver wants, and the car has a tendency to plough straight on at a corner. It wears out the front tyres and slows the car down.

The car can be adjusted to try to cancel it out, usually by increasing the amount of downforce at the front, or changing the suspension settings.

On the track, the only real way to deal with it is to enter the corner at a slower speed, although some drivers can find ways to minimise its effects.



NEUTRAL HANDLING

Formula One drivers are very rarely completely happy with the handling of their cars - by definition, a car being driven on its limit will have some problems.

However, they can be happier sometimes than others. This will be when the behaviour of the car allows the driver to use it in exactly the way he wants.

The end result is that he turns into the corner at the fastest possible speed with all four wheels of the car on the edge of adhesion sliding the same amount as each other.

This sets the car up for the maximum speed down the following straight and, eventually, the optimum lap time.



OVERSTEER

This happens when the front of the car has more grip than the rear. It creates a feeling that the car is trying to spin.

Some drivers like oversteer in limited amounts because it can make the car feel more responsive, but it carries the risk that the driver will lose control.

It can be dialled out using the settings of the car in the opposite way from which understeer would be cured.

[Autumnpuma]

Good post, aterk, and welcome. Pull up a chair and chat awhile.

There is another way to deal with turn-in understeer; use the same method Rindt, Emmo and Alonso use....agressive early turn-in to induce oversteer. With TC set correctly to accomodate this style, you can dial out the excess oversteer on exit. I will be interested to see who can (and cannot) adapt to the loss of TC in '08. Then again, perhaps the cars won't inherently understeer on entry by then...

[F1 FANatic]

Autumnpuma, on Feb 24 2007, 01:40 PM, said:

Good post, aterk, and welcome. Pull up a chair and chat awhile.

There is another way to deal with turn-in understeer; use the same method Rindt, Emmo and Alonso use....agressive early turn-in to induce oversteer. With TC set correctly to accomodate this style, you can dial out the excess oversteer on exit. I will be interested to see who can (and cannot) adapt to the loss of TC in '08. Then again, perhaps the cars won't inherently understeer on entry by then...

ah, but the first two did it without TC. it will be very interesting to see F1 without TC again. I know this will throw the thread way off topic, but, I was watching videos of Rindt and Emmo, and I think they should bring back the 3 wide grid

Edited by F1 FANatic, 25 February 2007 - 05:05 AM.

[Autumnpuma]

F1 FANatic, on Feb 24 2007, 09:04 PM, said:

ah, but the first two did it without TC. it will be very interesting to see F1 without TC again. I know this will throw the thread way off topic, but, I was watching videos of Rindt and Emmo, and I think they should bring back the 3 wide grid

Indeed, and a few races Alonso also had to do it without TC...don't count the champion out just yet...

[cavallino]

Didn't see the change of track in this thread earlier.

monza gorilla, on Jan 15 2007, 01:30 AM, said:

In that case I wonder if contacts are more of a vanity thing. Or is it a misting issue?

Many things. When you have fairly severe myopia, glasses reduce your field of vision. That is because only the centre of your lens really focuses properly, what you see through the sides of the lenses is distorted.  Also, things appear smaller, so in effect I guess the field of view remains the same, but then the level of detail you can see will be affected. Contacts give you vision that is about identical to what a person with perfect eyesight would see. Plus I cannot imagine why a driver would wear glasses, they make a bad missile. being hit in the face with a football while wearing glasses is bad enough, wonder what a crash would do.