Ruslan

2021 Rule Changes

27 posts in this topic

Well, Liberty, with approval from FIA, has issued out the new 2021 regulations. It includes a $175 budget cap (not including engines, principles salaries, driver salaries and marketing costs) and aerodynamic rule tweaks by Ross Brawn. I gather the teams have to approve them. I am assuming that Liberty has done their leg work and that will not be an issue.

So, looks like we got something new for 2021. It is a step forward, although not entirely all the steps I would have taken. Still, looks like progress. We shall see how this all plays out.

 

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In contrast to Ruslan, I will need time to digest all. I've began reading some articles, only to quit shortly after, loosing desire to know more. Cutting on testing, be it on track, in wind-tunnel, or in CFD for me suggest that we might experience 2014 disaster all over again. People who will get it wrong will carry wounded design for ages, and for what? So Williams and alike can stay in the sport they cannot afford? 

To say I hate all of this is probably immature way to express my feeling the morning after, but I will need some time (a few months, if ever) return back to this new deal. 

Edited by Sakae

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Well, now that they have a budget cap, I also think they should have unlimited testing. For some reason, they still don't grasp the idea that putting in the budget cap allows you to free up restrictions elsewhere.

These rules are incremental changes. I would have done something far more than what they have done...but at least they are now heading in the right direction, as it is clear that the F1 has been heading in the wrong direction for the last two decades. 

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You were always "promising" transactional trade-off, install budget for unrestricted (within reason) environment. I am absolutely aghast over what they are planning, not to say that "my man", Brawn, somebody I respected for decades, however today I don't know who he is anymore, nor have any desire to hear from him any time soon. Sham, 25 races, and less development. Cars will be developed on Sundays afternoon on a racing track...

Edited by Sakae

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Well, if I was in charge....I could "promise" stuff.....but they have not put me in charge. If I was, I would do things a little different. That said, they also have to read a compromise with the ten teams, which I gather they did.

I suspect the changes you have proposed over the years would not be supported by more than three teams, if that.

 

 

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My "radical" ideas (no pun intended) - well, just as in your case - are just mine, however they make sense in series in which there is no Tier 2 group. (In your concept there is no Tier 1 group.) In terms of numbers, teams have to hold a line for public perception of solidarity. It is a compromised situation in sport which lives by extremes; you see dichotomy in that? As a technical man who has spend chunk of his life supporting auto-industry, I've always had a budget, I've always experienced plans which didn't pan out as research into technical future requires among others some empirical work with no guarantees outcome. Failures in research are part of the progress, as someone said long time before me, yet F1 is now going to be forbidden to fail because of what...limiting budget?

To make long story short, call me pessimist over plans Liberty revealed. It has not escaped my attention as Brawn already was in a hurry to tell media how teams will be punished (Brits seems to be great in speeches of this kind), if they go over budget limit. It also hasn't escaped to me, and I doubt that I am alone, that the same man was silent about what a team will have to do in September, if they run out of money and cars were smashed in accidents. There are tonnes of questions one could ask during scrutiny sessions, but I gather all of those would end up in an Inbox, unopened. From where I sit, as with commencement of hybrid era in 2010, there is more hope than common sense. I am sorry Ross, but that's how this fan sees it.  I cannot say (yet) that F1 is dying, but surely it is on the path to emulate IRL (and NASCAR). Wolff was worry about F1 DNA. Right, but it is too late for that. E-series owners must be pleased over their future membership.

Edited by Sakae

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7 hours ago, Sakae said:

My "radical" ideas (no pun intended) - well, just as in your case - are just mine, however they make sense in series in which there is no Tier 2 group. (In your concept there is no Tier 1 group.)

I like the racing in the days when you could have 7 different teams and 11 different drivers win in a season....when you went to a race and you actually did not know who the only one or two drivers were that could win. The last 20 years have been an abomination:

1999-2008: Ferrari wins constructors championship 8 out of 10 seasons. Schumacher piles up the records.

2009: Brawn wins it with a clever cheat that gives him an advantage for a half-season.

2010-2013: Red Bull wins it four seasons in a row. Vettel piles up the records.

2014-2019: Mercedes wins it six seasons in a row. Hamilton piles up the records.

Really.....this is a good racing series?

 

 

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Historical record as you presented IMO is taken out of context. In the past, anyone could upgrade their car in very liberal regulatory environment within 3 months, and match Ferrari in every turn. McLaren in fact was a such case, just as Williams were. Schumacher collected trophies while fully exposed to rivals on the level playing field.

In contrast, it has taken 5 years to two teams (Ferrari and Honda) to match Mercedes in their engine departments, while Hamilton had only one rival to content with, his teammate, and even that is in question how much real competition was going on, because there was time as soon as Rosberg got ahead, screaming began how "unfairly" car 44 is being treated. All is on the record. 

Back to current competitiveness, cluster of cars (6) are not too far apart in performance. We are seeing fraction of a second. Aero however do need change permitting car to get closer and stay stable. Rest is on tires. It is insane to design the car first, and then tire-man shows up, and team learns in last dying moments about thermal issues and mismatch between body design and tire's thermal optimal window. That technicality has nothing much to do with budget, as with convoluted regulatory system. Putting cart in the front of a horse is just about fitting. Tire for next season should be handed to the teams in August/September in preceding year.

They aren't going to do that, however normally aspirated engine with unrestricted fuel flow would probably provide better show, decrease size of the engineering team (and associated cost), and put driver in driving seat more so, than he is today. I have evolved on this issue, and change my mind. Hybrids carry more negativity than pluses.

Hamilton is right on one point (for the change), that is, 16 races is enough.

 

Edited by Sakae

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GP247

Quote

Ferrari CEO Louis Camilleri has confirmed that his team is a long way from being ready to sign up for the 2021 Formula 1 World Championship and beyond.

We reported this week that although the 2021 rules have now been announced, the teams are not committed beyond 2020 until they sign a new Concorde Agreement.

That's what I thought. Liberty might be building new F1, but will anyone like it? Stay tune as a cliche goes.

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/701000/Jacques_Villeneuve_lashes_out_at_budget_cap_Its_pure_socialism/

Quote

Speaking to Journal de Montreal, the former Williams driver said: "What is the idea of helping the little ones who do not deserve it? Does an organization like Williams, he wonders, have the right to go as fast as Mercedes or Ferrari? The answer is no, obviously.

Sounds like Jacques is on the same page with me (echoing the same for years).

Edited by Sakae

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This is very interesting:

Quote

Mercedes unhappy with Ferrari for not blocking 2021 rules

Can't make up what the editor had on his mind when he decided on this headline. I might however have seen this movie before.

Edited by Sakae

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Well, I can't imagine that Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull are particularly happy over a set of budget caps that only affect them.....but I gather they understood that it needed to be done. Were they paying lip service to it in public and in private hoping to scupper the rules?

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Situation seems rather fluid, and I do not have credible information on individual positions. Take this with grain of salt, but it seems that not all teams have signed for continuation of the series yet.

Ferrari requested top limit on engine development (due to some sloppy reporting, I am not sure what is or isn't included in that cap). 

If I have to guess, Ferrari is probably closest to resigning for next term, whereas Mercedes, Renault, and Honda are on the bubble. I also think it is more serious than just cheap posturing. 

Edited by Sakae

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23 hours ago, Sakae said:

Ferrari requested top limit on engine development (due to some sloppy reporting, I am not sure what is or isn't included in that cap). 

The budget cap does not apply to engines. There has been some comments made by team principals (Ferrari) as to whether there should be a separate budget cap for engines.

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59 minutes ago, Ruslan said:

The budget cap does not apply to engines. There has been some comments made by team principals (Ferrari) as to whether there should be a separate budget cap for engines.

Yes, that's correct, yet my feeling that imposition of budget is expensive and misguided non-solution to F1 problems is still on, strong as ever. JV had to right (for change), when he said, where is it written that Ferrari has to slow down to Williams's level? Think of it this way; how many people in US are allowed to a private golf course which is on invitation only, and has its entry annual fee in hundreds of thousands? Point is, F1 is not for everyone, and teams should leave for F2 or somewhere else where they can afford to stay. That's how unadulterated capitalism perhaps should work.

Mine is just a different interpretations of the situation from yours. Young generation is not interested in F1 "as is", and Liberty is not going to save it by inserting in, and living on gimmicks, and instead being exceptional game is diluted by catering to Tier 2 crowd. Why we cannot continue with two tiers? Midfield is close to each other, and so is front, so, what's the problem? 

In fact, there is rising strong attack on pollution around here, and I would not be surprised if F1 will slowly gets kicked out of Europe. Just to refresh your memory, I am not against lowering cost, but in my mind this should be accomplished by living simpler life, having to play with less complicated toys. Wisdom should be found in sensible technical regulations building less complicated cars with development on the track, instead on CFD machines with bunch of Ph.D(s) hiding somewhere in the office.

Edited by Sakae

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F1 IS and always HAS been, the PINNACLE of motor-sport.
Having a two-tier system WILL devalue the F1 brand - and Bernie`s hard work to establish it.
HOW can U have a two-tier system to represent the best, in the world ?
Other sports do NOT follow that system - Y should F1 ??

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Ruslan - Y R U comparin different eras of F1 ??

It is NOT like for like
Mixed PU
V8 Ferrari dominance with Schumacher
Red Bull V8 dominance designed by Newey
Mercedes Turbo hybrid era dominance driven by Hamilton
Who WON a WDC with Mclaren-Mercedes in V8 era

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7 hours ago, lipstick79 said:

Ruslan - Y R U comparin different eras of F1 ??

It is NOT like for like
Mixed PU
V8 Ferrari dominance with Schumacher
Red Bull V8 dominance designed by Newey
Mercedes Turbo hybrid era dominance driven by Hamilton
Who WON a WDC with Mclaren-Mercedes in V8 era

Has Newey designed and also raced RB? Must be hard for you to say or write his name with some degree of respect. The name is Vettel, and he won in competitive environment 4 WDCs. Despite all denials, we didn't see the same in recent years.

Edited by Sakae

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10 hours ago, lipstick79 said:

F1 IS and always HAS been, the PINNACLE of motor-sport.
Having a two-tier system WILL devalue the F1 brand - and Bernie`s hard work to establish it.
HOW can U have a two-tier system to represent the best, in the world ?
Other sports do NOT follow that system - Y should F1 ??

You have this division now, and best minds in business predicting it will continue with new rules beyond 2020, so, why pretend otherwise? Such arguments remind me of similarity with some countries which are pretending to be democracies, and repeating it several times a day. It makes masses proud and feeling good, regardless how divorced that feeling is from reality. 

Why we should admit we have two groups on the track? It might change how we view the sport. It can make F1 less expensive after we accept to remove silly (economy based) restrictions, and replaced them with the truth and sensible transparency.

Placing development onto computers, as whole business is heading now, makes this sport vulnerable to cheating and working in dark systems. FiA is not that sophisticated enough to detect who did what and in how many hours. They would have to hire expensive police, and who will pay for that: Who will police police? 

Mechanics and relatively inexpensive engineers we will replaced with crowd of Ph.D(s) from best universities. Race will take on the computer racks. That will "save" tonnes of money (not), and just consider - should those guys, god forbid, make a mistake, we will have then circus on the track, and season lost already in Australia; 2014 all over again. Flawed design, and no chance to recover and save the season.

Edited by Sakae

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2 hours ago, Sakae said:

 we didn't see the same in recent years.

Newey designed Williams dominance 
Signed by Mclaren Mercedes, designed mp4 dominance 
Finger boy vettel, NOT been waving his finger in the turbo hybrid era

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3 hours ago, Sakae said:

Why we should admit it? It might make F1 less expensive after those silly restrictions disappear and ...

Flip THAT coin, it might NOT
Y take an unproven chance?
Making changes, just for the sake of changing something?
IF going to change something, I WOULD start with UR underwear !!

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25 minutes ago, lipstick79 said:

Newey designed Williams dominance 
Signed by Mclaren Mercedes, designed mp4 dominance 
Finger boy vettel, NOT been waving his finger in the turbo hybrid era

You can say Mercedes, not Hamilton, won all races in last 5 years. 

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21 minutes ago, Sakae said:

You can say Mercedes, not Hamilton, won all races in last 5 years. 

Just like with Rosberg`s WDC
Came from nowhere in the V8 era - Hamilton at least won 1 WDC in the V8 era
For Mclaren Mercedes

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As Marie Antoinette said: 

Quote

 I have seen all, I have heard all, I have forgotten all.

That's that.

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