lipstick79

Which way?

8 posts in this topic

Is Renault leaving Formula 1? 'Maybe McLaren had no choice
>Reverse that, Did Mclaren HAVE a choice, and is Renault leaving F1?

Edited by lipstick79

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MCLAREN

@lipstick79 I think you are misinformed.

Management of Renault approved continuation with the F1.

On the internet there are many people just inventing false flags, this maybe for sake of exoneration of McLaren's ill conceived journey in PU sourcing.  Fact is, impact of COVID-19 may change plans that are already in place, but as of this day, as far as I am aware off, internet is not always correct.

In the past we read statements that non-factory teams will not win championship due to procuring inferior equipment. I am very much in doubt about validity of such excuses, because one only has to look back when McLaren won with purchased PU, Toyota was nowhere with their efforts, and I am sure further evaluation of racing history may produce surprising results when true causes for poor performance were misdirected. Complexity of racing depends on far more elements than just a PU. Mr. Dennis presumably knew all of that, yet bet on a new supplier, despite all indicators, how risky his decision was. 

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On 26/03/2020 at 6:45 AM, Sakae said:

MCLAREN

@lipstick79 I think you are misinformed.

Management of Renault approved continuation with the F1.

On the internet there are many people just inventing false flags, this maybe for sake of exoneration of McLaren's ill conceived journey in PU sourcing.  Fact is, impact of COVID-19 may change plans that are already in place, but as of this day, as far as I am aware off, internet is not always correct.

In the past we read statements that non-factory teams will not win championship due to procuring inferior equipment. I am very much in doubt about validity of such excuses, because one only has to look back when McLaren won with purchased PU, Toyota was nowhere with their efforts ....

On 26/03/2020 at 6:45 AM, Sakae said:

 

> Mclaren WERE unofficially the Mercedes WORKS team, under Ron
Until Mercedes BOUGHT Brawn - Ron would NOT sell out 2 Mercedes.
Honda WERE different.  Also have separate company, Mclaren roadcar which like Mclaren F1 team, do NOT produce their OWN engine.
Ferrari DO, Mercedes DO, Mclaren - CUSTOMER team

Edited by lipstick79

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4 hours ago, lipstick79 said:

> Mclaren WERE unofficially the Mercedes WORKS team, under Ron
Until Mercedes BOUGHT Brawn - Ron would NOT sell out 2 Mercedes.
Honda WERE different.  Also have separate company, Mclaren roadcar which like Mclaren F1 team, do NOT produce their OWN engine.
Ferrari DO, Mercedes DO, Mclaren - CUSTOMER team

2020 / 03 / 27   13:09 (UTC)

McLaren (non-factory teams in disadvantage?)

@lipstick79  I think we had this discussion before, and either you forgot about it, or I didn't marshal my arguments convincingly enough. In summary, I do not subscribe to theory that only PU suppliers win in F1. Let me try a different approach with hope, following points will make a better counterargument to your proposition.

If I understand correctly your position, you are convinced that to win in F1, you have to be a factory team ( making both, PU and vehicle). I have issue with a such claims; I doubt veracity of it.

  1. If your argument would be TRUE, then only RBR, Mercedes, Renault, and Ferrari teams would have any chances to win, since only those four are "factory" teams.
  2. Are you prepare to claim that the other six teams are participants in racing with full knowledge that at best they are fighting for P5 in WDC/WCC, being bested by factory teams? Has anyone share this with McLaren?
  3. Has anyone told to non-factory teams they will never reach podium because being bested by factory teams during a season? Makes you wonder how crumbs falling off the table taste. Perhaps we should ask them.
  4. IF however non-factory teams can reach podium, that would mean they defeated at least one factory team on merit. Makes you wonder -again - if that is possible once, why not more times, and why such honor would be valid only for one team, and not any team? 

Teams do know details of vehicle to PU interfacing, they do know where CoG is, and they do know weight and overall PU packaging details (envelope). So, what's the problem?

Proper analysis of the same issue would be assessing regulatory requirements for suppliers of PU(s) regarding fair equality. Where I do agree with claims of disparity potentially exists, when perhaps there was development related engineering modification, and time to market was too short for manufacturing enough units for all customers.

Is there anything else you can point out which handicaps customer? You see, sometimes teams crying foul and finger-pointing PU supplier, only to be caught with pants down due to their own shortcomings in areas of chassis and aero. Are you going to claim it was just Honda who was responsible for McLaren's problems in recent times?

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U do NOT understand my position correctly.
Ron Dennis Made the statement about, only an engine manufacturer CAN win in F1.
Thus followed the failed, Mclaren - Honda project.
If U look most of the grid R factory teams or the sister team.
There R NO truly independent teams.
I would have liked 2 have seen a team bring back Cosworth into this era.
Like Ron did with Mclaren  Honda initially

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30 minutes ago, lipstick79 said:

Ron Dennis Made the statement about, only an engine manufacturer CAN win in F1.

For reasons explained in my previous post, I cannot agree with this. Assertion seems emotional utterance with not much thought behind it.

Quote

I would have liked 2 have seen a team bring back Cosworth into this era.

...and replicate Honda struggle once again? Calling for Cosworth seems to me just emotional cry for return of bygone era. The name has no money (acknowledged) to enter racing or expertise (where would they get it?) to compete with current state of industry. Honda wasn't total novice in hybrid technology, researching it at home for some time, yet look what happened. Everything turned against them. Restrictions, challenges, and so on. Let's be realistic here.

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13 minutes ago, Sakae said:

For reasons explained in my previous post, I cannot agree with this. Assertion seems emotional utterance with not much thought behind it.

...and replicate Honda struggle once again? Calling for Cosworth seems to me just emotional cry for return of bygone era. The name has no money (acknowledged) to enter racing or expertise (where would they get it?) to compete with current state of industry. Honda wasn't total novice in hybrid technology, researching it at home for some time, yet look what happened. Everything turned against them. Restrictions, challenges, and so on. Let's be realistic here.

Agree fully. Merc had like a 3 year advantage pushing for these new engines rite.. 3 YEARS!!! B4 actual race implementation!. They caught everyone napping when the hybrid engines were enforced. Plus those secret tyres tests where they solved their tyre issues and got away with it... And looking at Honda's struggle, they've only come to grips with the new engines a year ago... would mean disaster. Unless a smaller team is willing to take that risk...

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2020 / 03 / 27   16:56 (UTC)

Development of hybrid PU will be curtailed soon. Any new kid on the block will have to buy one from current suppliers. Cosworth I gather might not be interested in that. 

Honda faced with all technical problems weren't impressed by McLaren's management of the partnership. That came to light after they settled at RBR.

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