Bernie Wants Standard Engines For 2010

[Max Mosley 2]

Careful, different does not mean it is harder. Most comments I have heard are about the incredible braking of an F1 car vs any other. I also agree the cars are the pinnicle in motorsport. Drivers???? Who knows. Some of them seem to know what they are doing, but to claim the best drivers are all in F1 is pretty subjective. Still you are entitled to your opinion, and there are some good arguments to back up your claim. All I am saying is , once you get out of the top five you would have a hard time convincing me they are anything special.

Note SB got the Torro Rossa in the Top Ten with Vettel. If Vettel is the next best thing in F1, I guess SB must be close as well

See? I knew from experience it was going to be hard going. You just don't seem to use normal human logic in your opinions.

Everyone who has raced in both CCWS/CART/IRL and F1 has found F1 much harder.

That is all there is to it. It's really very simple if you just think about it. I invite you to reread that bold bit several times. Mull it over. Allow the words to marinate into your cerebellum. Even JV said that when he arrived in F1 he found the standard of driving so much higher than in CART. Your comments about different vs harder are wide of the mark because everyone who has raced in both found F1 harder. Not different, more piquant or bluer, but harder. In other words they weren't as successful in F1 has they were in CART/CCWS/IRL.

[freaky2 1]

Maure isn't really a serious poster btw. Once you get used to him he's entertaining though.

That's what I was telling Alba the other day but she still can't find the fun. Though I only said that about half of his posts (the other half do make sense).

I think it has, honestly. Mika and Michael's duels are some of my favourite memories of F1 but it's easy to look back with tinted glasses. Many races between those two were settled by the cars not the drivers, and both of those drivers made errors too. Hell, Eddie Irvine almost won the WDC one year - something to bear in mind when we ridicule Ferrari's current number 2 (Massa).

Too true XD

[YHR 0]

See? I knew from experience it was going to be hard going. You just don't seem to use normal human logic in your opinions.

Everyone who has raced in both CCWS/CART/IRL and F1 has found F1 much harder.

That is all there is to it. It's really very simple if you just think about it. I invite you to reread that bold bit several times. Mull it over. Allow the words to marinate into your cerebellum. Even JV said that when he arrived in F1 he found the standard of driving so much higher than in CART. Your comments about different vs harder are wide of the mark because everyone who has raced in both found F1 harder. Not different, more piquant or bluer, but harder. In other words they weren't as successful in F1 has they were in CART/CCWS/IRL.

All I have heard them say is that F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. Best car's unlimited class. You know you are driving at the top in F1.

What do you think Montoya and Villenueve are finding harder, F1 or NASCAR. Neither of them has made a dent on the Nascar fields. Harder is a very poor term to describe the experience of driving a race car at different levels. They all have their challenges. Does the fact that Montoya is finding it harder in NASCAR then he did in F1 mean the drivers in NASCAR are better then F1 drivers????

Let your cerebellum chew that one up for a while.

[Max Mosley 2]

That's what I was telling Alba the other day but she still can't find the fun. Though I only said that about half of his posts (the other half do make sense).

Well like I always say, Alba's too nice for all this mockery! We're a nasty bunch and she sets a much better example. But I do agree that when he tries to make sense Maure becomes a lot less interesting. Fortunately I think you were exaggerating when you said a full 'half' fall into that category.

All I have heard them say is that F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. Best car's unlimited class. You know you are driving at the top in F1.

What do you think Montoya and Villenueve are finding harder, F1 or NASCAR. Neither of them has made a dent on the Nascar fields. Harder is a very poor term to describe the experience of driving a race car at different levels. They all have their challenges. Does the fact that Montoya is finding it harder in NASCAR then he did in F1 mean the drivers in NASCAR are better then F1 drivers????

Let your cerebellum chew that one up for a while.

YHR! I was comparing CART/IRl/CCWS with F1. NASCAR is a completely different skill, and we'll discuss that in a minute. Let's stick to the open-wheel stuff for now. Everyone who has raced on both sides of the Atlantic in these comparable series has found F1 harder. That is a damn good indication that it is. JV said he had to raise his game when he came to F1.

[YHR 0]

Sorry, what was it five titles in a row? If that isn't domination I'm not sure what is. It doesn't matter who he beat, the point is if he beat them he was the best (since the cream always rises), which means he was one of the top American drivers. Then look at the fact he can't drive the Toro Rosso as fast as a still inexperienced Vettel, and that's just my point really.

But yeah it is a bad analogy, because Vettel is probably a brilliant driver.

I think it was three, and he actually is driving the Torro Rossa pretty well.

Glock was another guy that competed in America. Has about he same kind of success he is having now.

I just think it is too hard to compare drivers between different series. In F1 you have to be at a top team to showcase your talent. Jenson Button is a perfect example of what happens to a good driver who does not have the best car. You get passed over and forgot about. It has nothing to do with your talent as a driver. I am sure JB is as good as he ever was, it's just when you don't have a competive car you look like crap compared to the guys that do.

[YHR 0]

Well like I always say, Alba's too nice for all this mockery! We're a nasty bunch and she sets a much better example. But I do agree that when he tries to make sense Maure becomes a lot less interesting. Fortunately I think you were exaggerating when you said a full 'half' fall into that category.

YHR! I was comparing CART/IRl/CCWS with F1. NASCAR is a completely different skill, and we'll discuss that in a minute. Let's stick to the open-wheel stuff for now. Everyone who has raced on both sides of the Atlantic in these comparable series has found F1 harder. That is a damn good indication that it is. JV said he had to raise his game when he came to F1.

That is exactly my point. It Is different. Driving an indy car with turbo boost and steel brakes is a lot different then an F1 car. I hate to do this to people, but show me one quote where a driver said F1 is flat out harder. Most of them go on to quaify their answer first by saying how different it is.

[Rainmaster 7]

I think it was three, and he actually is driving the Torro Rossa pretty well.

Glock was another guy that competed in America. Has about he same kind of success he is having now.

I just think it is too hard to compare drivers between different series. In F1 you have to be at a top team to showcase your talent. Jenson Button is a perfect example of what happens to a good driver who does not have the best car. You get passed over and forgot about. It has nothing to do with your talent as a driver. I am sure JB is as good as he ever was, it's just when you don't have a competive car you look like crap compared to the guys that do.

I guess we are both wrong then, since it's four Still though he was one of the most successful drivers in CCWS history, according to Wikipedia (so it must be true).

But see we disagree again, sort of, because I still think most people would rate Jenson quite highly if you reminded them he was there. I think it's more the case that people forget about you, because the press just move onto the next guy, like in Britain with Hamilton and Jenson.

Although I do agree, we shouldn't really be comparing what these guys do, because it's not apples with apples and that. It's safe to say the top F1 drivers are as talented as the top drivers from any other series, it's also probably safe to say that succeeding in F1 is perhaps more difficult than succeeding in many other series, mostly due to politics and the need for a top drive; but the driver can still make a difference. Phew.

[YHR 0]

I guess we are both wrong then, since it's four Still though he was one of the most successful drivers in CCWS history, according to Wikipedia (so it must be true).

But see we disagree again, sort of, because I still think most people would rate Jenson quite highly if you reminded them he was there. I think it's more the case that people forget about you, because the press just move onto the next guy, like in Britain with Hamilton and Jenson.

Although I do agree, we shouldn't really be comparing what these guys do, because it's not apples with apples and that. It's safe to say the top F1 drivers are as talented as the top drivers from any other series, it's also probably safe to say that succeeding in F1 is perhaps more difficult than succeeding in many other series, mostly due to politics and the need for a top drive; but the driver can still make a difference. Phew.

Agreed

[freaky2 1]

I guess we are both wrong then, since it's four Still though he was one of the most successful drivers in CCWS history, according to Wikipedia (so it must be true).

But see we disagree again, sort of, because I still think most people would rate Jenson quite highly if you reminded them he was there. I think it's more the case that people forget about you, because the press just move onto the next guy, like in Britain with Hamilton and Jenson.

Although I do agree, we shouldn't really be comparing what these guys do, because it's not apples with apples and that. It's safe to say the top F1 drivers are as talented as the top drivers from any other series, it's also probably safe to say that succeeding in F1 is perhaps more difficult than succeeding in many other series, mostly due to politics and the need for a top drive; but the driver can still make a difference. Phew.

You're going on the safe side, that's no fun at all! XD

[Rainmaster 7]

You're going on the safe side, that's no fun at all! XD

Yeah I know, I should really live up to my bad boy reputation!

[Max Mosley 2]

That is exactly my point. It Is different. Driving an indy car with turbo boost and steel brakes is a lot different then an F1 car. I hate to do this to people, but show me one quote where a driver said F1 is flat out harder. Most of them go on to quaify their answer first by saying how different it is.

F1 is the top level of motorsport racing so anything else could only be acceptable if you have the security of coming back afterwards.

I wouldn't race in CART because it is not Formula One--it's second-rate. You see guys go from Formula One to CART. Nigell Mansell went over there and killed everyone--Alex Zanardi went over there and killed everyone, and came back to Formula One and was nowhere. Juan Montoya has killed everyone, and next year he will be in F1, so we will see where he is at. He does seem good, but Formula One is where you find out. It seems to be quite easy, in a way, to look like a hero in the United States.

Irvine and JV.

Have you thought about why every driver finds their team mates more of a challenge in F1 than any other open-wheel series?

I guess we are both wrong then, since it's four Still though he was one of the most successful drivers in CCWS history, according to Wikipedia (so it must be true).

Yeah and according to Wiki, that was 4 championships out of the total 5 seasons he entered!

But see we disagree again, sort of, because I still think most people would rate Jenson quite highly if you reminded them he was there. I think it's more the case that people forget about you, because the press just move onto the next guy, like in Britain with Hamilton and Jenson.

Yup.

[freaky2 1]

Yeah I know, I should really live up to my bad boy reputation!

Yeah, or you might find me agreeing with someone else

[Rainmaster 7]

Yeah, or you might find me agreeing with someone else

Don't even joke about that!

[YHR 0]

Irvine and JV.

Have you thought about why every driver finds their team mates more of a challenge in F1 than any other open-wheel series?

Yeah and according to Wiki, that was 4 championships out of the total 5 seasons he entered!

Yup.

Those quotes do nothing. Irvine had an opinion, but never having raced in America his opinion is no better then ours. I never doubted JV said F1 is the pinnacle of motor sport, I am just saying you would be hard pressed to find a quote, where a driver who has driven in both, would ever come right out and say F1 is harder. It is the the top level, and it very different experience in driving . Harder, I am not so sure. No clutches, anti spin, used to be traction control, all of these things could be argued make driving F1 easier then indycar.

[Max Mosley 2]

Those quotes do nothing. Irvine had an opinion, but never having raced in America his opinion is no better then ours. I never doubted JV said F1 is the pinnacle of motor sport, I am just saying you would be hard pressed to find a quote, where a driver who has driven in both, would ever come right out and say F1 is harder. It is the the top level, and it very different experience in driving . Harder, I am not so sure. No clutches, anti spin, used to be traction control, all of these things could be argued make driving F1 easier then indycar.

Yes you're right. But I think that's probably because they don't want to insult the people they worked with in CART etc. Here's another quote from JV. This one seems pretty clear cut. All you have to bear in mind is that when he said this, JV had recently been rejected from F1 and signed up to NASCAR, so we can safely discount any praise he gives NASCAR. The rest should be accurate.

These days, NASCAR isn

[YHR 0]

Yes you're right. But I think that's probably because they don't want to insult the people they worked with in CART etc. Here's another quote from JV. This one seems pretty clear cut. All you have to bear in mind is that when he said this, JV had recently been rejected from F1 and signed up to NASCAR, so we can safely discount any praise he gives NASCAR. The rest should be accurate.

Again Murray, he never says it is harder, just that it is a cut above the rest. It is also clear that JV at the time thinks IRL and CART only only a shadow of what they used to be. I have never argued the point that F1 is the pinnacle of Motorsport, but that fact alone does not suddenly make it the hardest to drive well in. That is your opinion, not mine, and as I mentioned you will be hard pressed to find a driver who has competed in any series say one is harder then the other. They are different, and a driver knows you just can't make a comparison like that. Too many other factors are in play to simplify it to one word.

As I mentioned, looking at Montoya's adventure in Nascar, he might very well tell you success in Nascar is the hardest of the lot, and guess what, he might be right!!!!

Best, and hardest, (with respect to racing) aren't neccesarily mutually inclusive.

As a matter of fact some of the best drivers on the planet might very well be rally car drivers. Open wheel F1, just isn't their cup of tea.

[Max Mosley 2]

An F1 team wouldn

[YHR 0]

Why does JV say this, YHR? Do they just like the look of GP2 drivers? Or do they maybe think they are better?

Because drivers in GP2 are more inline with what is required to be in F1. They race on the same tracks, same type of cars. Turbo boosted Indycars that race on ovals and street circuits do nothing to prepare a driver for F1. Come on Murray, are you tired or something????

GP2 drivers are better suited to drive an F1 car. DUH. F1 is less hard for them to adapt to then it is for an indycar driver. So a GP 2 driver would find F1 easier then Indycar. See why the whole "harder" idea is flawed. It all depends on so many other things, that you can't claim one level to be the hardest.

[Max Mosley 2]

OK this is why I wasn't too keen to get into a debate again. I think you must speak a different language in Canada. Villeneuve clearly says that F1 teams prefer virtually anyone but Champ Car/IRL drivers because of the 'value of those series'. They are all 'a step down from F1'. He says F1 teams would prefer NASCAR and Moto GP racers; and you're telling me riding a bike or driving a truck is closer to F1 than CCWS/IRL. Each to his own, then.

These days, NASCAR isn

[Kopite Girl 0]

Mmm. Eddie Irvine. Who gives a sh*t what he says, not interested in that. He had a big mouth. Well, that may not be such a bad thing... *drifts off*

Sorry. Anyway - he was a sexist pig. But I still would.

I see what you're saying Murray - or rather what JV saying... but wasn't he a bit of a gasbag too. I think if you asked a driver who came from NASCAR to F1, you'd get a rather different answer....

[YHR 0]

OK this is why I wasn't too keen to get into a debate again. I think you must speak a different language in Canada. Villeneuve clearly says that F1 teams prefer virtually anyone but Champ Car/IRL drivers because of the 'value of those series'. They are all 'a step down from F1'. He says F1 teams would prefer NASCAR and Moto GP racers; and you're telling me riding a bike or driving a truck is closer to F1 than CCWS/IRL. Each to his own, then.

??? I'll just let this go. You are not getting my point, and seem intent on getting me to agree to your opinion that F1 is the hardest form of racing in motorsport.

I disagree for the reason I stated, and believe it is too subjective and unwise to try an simply the sport to that degree. Far too many other factors come into play when making the comparison. Apples and oranges so to speak. You can have your opinion on what is hardest, but that opinion is impossible to defend. Try arguing an apple is better then an orange. Again just be objective and realize the folly of defending the statement.

If common sense is a different language then I guess in general Canadians are guilty of speaking it.