Bernie Wants Standard Engines For 2010

[Medilloni 6]

Someone else fell for DOF's spin. The word mediocre is no more than that. In fact, the word is best used in F1 circles to describe the current state of engineering. 95% of the technology in F1 is mediocre and mundane, and the rest they buy in from the far smarter people who invent it. To me, the thing that's so strange to hear on an F1 forum is all this guff about F1 being full of brilliant engineers. The funny thing is that there are better engineers posting on this site than most of the ones in F1.

Hey Murray, DOF doesn't do 'spin', he's passionate about aspects of motorsport that he's interested in, and voices his opinion.

Your assertion that F1 isn't 'full of brilliant engineers' might be true if you only regard brilliance as those that invent, period. The application of existing technology in F1 is brilliantly applied.

If they weren't any good, why don't Ferrari employ a couple of welders, a grease monkey and some bloke that knows why paper planes fly? Are the fluid and aero dynamacists, stress engineers, designers etc etc etc etc not most excellent at their trade?

Is designing an engine, gearbox and associated running gear that is more highly stressed. and is required to last ten times longer than ten years ago, any less an achievement to the likes of those Keith Duckworth was famous for - even with, or perhaps especially because of, present regs?

Your bar for 'brilliant' must be raised to the heights of Einstein and...............

......dammit, bollocks and knobs. I fell into your stirring trap again didn't I?

[maure 1]

It is the pinnacle of motorsport because the drivers are the best. The engineering has never been remarkable, at least not for a very long time if ever. Its USP is the driving talent: there are smarter people posting here than work in F1 but no one here can drive half as well as Ide.

Sure, buddy, sure. F1 engineers? A worthless bunch of 'accents'.

I suppose that after telling us about all those papers that you've published in "reputable" academic journals, it is now time to tell us about the years you've spent working for "reputable" F1 teams. It is all so simple for the simple.

[monza gorilla 1]

You didn't get it wrong, Murray, but to simply say F1 has the best drivers is a bit sweeping without qualification. I immediately think of other great, non F1, drivers who I consider to be better overall.

As for brilliant engineers, what is brilliant? The guy who invented active suspension? Or the guy who made it work? One does not have to be innovative to be brilliant. Standing on the shoulders of giants, as some obscure Englishman once said, with some modesty. Building on what has gone before.

EDIT: curse you, Med and Maure, for interrupting my flow.

EDIT EDIT: beer o'clock. Have fun.

[YHR 0]

Each to their own, as so often, then.

F1 has the best drivers out of all the single-seater, open-wheel racing car series imho. Which series am I forgetting, if I've got this wrong?And tons of people are saying F1 is full of brilliant engineers. Anyone who complains that Max's spec agenda makes F1 mediocre is implying that it isn't technically mediocre already. All the people who say they love F1 because of its technological innovation are saying F1 is a source of noteworthy innovation.

Do you even know the names of the drivers in Indycar?? Have you ever watched them race.? To dismiss others, because they don't drive in F1 is a pretty silly concept. It's like the kid who hates lobster, but he has never even tasted it. His perception is robbing him of a wonderful experience

[Rainmaster 7]

In general your average F1 driver is better or more talented than drivers from other single seater series, and is obviously better than the guys from the lower ranks leading up to F1, which covers a lot.

A better way of putting it is: the top guys in F1 are just as good as anyone else you can name, and please show me someone who can do what Lewis Hamilton does (I think any driver in any single seater series would struggle to beat him as a team mate).

Rally drivers are another breed altogether, what they do is just brilliant.

[The Rumble Strip 0]

Agreed, F1 and its driver are the best, hence the reason rookies rarely make you sit up and take notice.

What worries me though is that Bernie usually gets what he wants.

[Max Mosley 2]

Is designing an engine, gearbox and associated running gear that is more highly stressed. and is required to last ten times longer than ten years ago, any less an achievement to the likes of those Keith Duckworth was famous for - even with, or perhaps especially because of, present regs?

I'm not saying it's not an achievement. There are some clever people in F1. But as you say elsewhere, it's all relative. If you compare F1 engineers to the mechanics who work on your Ford Ka then sure, they're amazing. If you compare them to the best technical brains in the world then they look quite pathetic, as they themselves would readily admit.

Sure, buddy, sure. F1 engineers? A worthless bunch of 'accents'.

You know I never said that. Nor would I ever be so disrespectful. Most of the best engineers in F1 are British, after all.

I suppose that after telling us about all those papers that you've published in "reputable" academic journals, it is now time to tell us about the years you've spent working for "reputable" F1 teams. It is all so simple for the simple.

Well, as it happens, yes I did do research for Ferrari's F1 team when I was 18. Yup, that's the calibre of people working in F1. As you kindly remind me, I've moved on to bigger and better things. One of my friends however computes the strategies for McLaren now.

You didn't get it wrong, Murray, but to simply say F1 has the best drivers is a bit sweeping without qualification. I immediately think of other great, non F1, drivers who I consider to be better overall.

As for brilliant engineers, what is brilliant? The guy who invented active suspension? Or the guy who made it work? One does not have to be innovative to be brilliant. Standing on the shoulders of giants, as some obscure Englishman once said, with some modesty. Building on what has gone before.

EDIT: curse you, Med and Maure, for interrupting my flow.

EDIT EDIT: beer o'clock. Have fun.

It's a slight generalisation, but it's such a simple issue and I can't understand all the pussying around. There are some crap F1 drivers and some very good drivers elsewhere; on average, F1 drivers are better than in any comparable series. The USP of F1 should be the driving talent because that is what is hard to find elsewhere - if instead you like engineering, go look at a suspension bridge before F1.

Btw just as an interesting aside, Isaac Newton was just about the least humble man ever to (dis-)grace the planet. When he said he saw further by standing on the shoulders of giants, he wasn't being modest. It's an interesting tale. He was determined to destroy the reputations of any competitor, and he generally succeeded. In this case, he was making a snide remark about Robert Hooke, whose achievements Newton felt were so slight as to mirror his diminutive stature.

Do you even know the names of the drivers in Indycar?? Have you ever watched them race.? To dismiss others, because they don't drive in F1 is a pretty silly concept. It's like the kid who hates lobster, but he has never even tasted it. His perception is robbing him of a wonderful experience

I said I like watching American racing, and have done so for many years, though not as devotedly as I've followed F1. Tbh YHR, I can keep repeating what I've already said but there's not much point because you seem to disagree with me on so many issues I can't imagine ever getting through to you on this one either. But for old times' sake: every guy who raced in both America and F1 (in either order) found it harder in F1. To me that suggests F1 is harder, but each to his own.

In general your average F1 driver is better or more talented than drivers from other single seater series, and is obviously better than the guys from the lower ranks leading up to F1, which covers a lot.

Yup.

Agreed, F1 and its driver are the best, hence the reason rookies rarely make you sit up and take notice.

Yup.

[YHR 0]

I'm not saying it's not an achievement. There are some clever people in F1. But as you say elsewhere, it's all relative. If you compare F1 engineers to the mechanics who work on your Ford Ka then sure, they're amazing. If you compare them to the best technical brains in the world then they look quite pathetic, as they themselves would readily admit.

You know I never said that. Nor would I ever be so disrespectful. Most of the best engineers in F1 are British, after all.

Well, as it happens, yes I did do research for Ferrari's F1 team when I was 18. Yup, that's the calibre of people working in F1. As you kindly remind me, I've moved on to bigger and better things. One of my friends however computes the strategies for McLaren now.

It's a slight generalisation, but it's such a simple issue and I can't understand all the pussying around. There are some crap F1 drivers and some very good drivers elsewhere; on average, F1 drivers are better than in any comparable series. The USP of F1 should be the driving talent because that is what is hard to find elsewhere - if instead you like engineering, go look at a suspension bridge before F1.

Btw just as an interesting aside, Isaac Newton was just about the least humble man ever to (dis-)grace the planet. When he said he saw further by standing on the shoulders of giants, he wasn't being modest. It's an interesting tale. He was determined to destroy the reputations of any competitor, and he generally succeeded. In this case, he was making a snide remark about Robert Hooke, whose achievements Newton felt were so slight as to mirror his diminutive stature.

I said I like watching American racing, and have done so for many years, though not as devotedly as I've followed F1. Tbh YHR, I can keep repeating what I've already said but there's not much point because you seem to disagree with me on so many issues I can't imagine ever getting through to you on this one either. But for old times' sake: every guy who raced in both America and F1 (in either order) found it harder in F1. To me that suggests F1 is harder, but each to his own.

Yup.

Yup.

Make no mistake about it the top five drivers in F1 are truly the best in the world. However from the point down the water gets a little muddier. You may have watched racing in America, but I bet you haven't in a few years. Nobody has!!!! I also don't think it is fair or safe to make genral comments about driver skill. Because Hammy and Vettel are making a big impression it could be that the current crop of drivers aren't as brilliant as we think they should be. That is why I am quick to challenge any claim about F1 having the best drivers in the world. Come on Murray. You said that Sato would mop the floor with every driver that races in America. You can't make claims like that and expect people to agree with them. Sato never should have been F1, and just his presence there downgraded the sport to one of politics and convenience. It was clear that being the best had nothing to do with driving in F1.

[Oli 1]

For me the issue is far more fundamental. I don't think the "quality" of the engineering is the issue, at least not any more. I think the whole team-based nature of the sport adds a dimension which just isn't present in a lot of other forms of motorsport. The political machinations, the movement between teams and the differentiation between the situations drivers are in are all part of it.

In addition, the best F1 drivers are often those who are able to get themselves into a good team at the right time. Sure, there's an element of luck involved, but there's also the question of how well the teams perform at selecting the right drivers. I tend to have a driver loyalty (Kimi) and a team loyalty (McLaren) which might conflict from time to time, but it makes things more exciting for me.

The biggest problem I have with Max's speccing efforts is that he's doing things in a gradual way rather than just converting to a straight spec series. By doing this he is ensuring that those at the top stay at the top, which is why we haven't had anyone to challenge McLaren and Ferrari in well over a decade. If he wants to preserve the team element of the sport whilst allowing some innovation so that the small teams can have a chance to come up with an imaginative solution to compete with the big boys, we need fewer rules and less speccing. If he wants to continue speccing he has to immediately work towards abandoning the concept of a team sport. You can't have your cake and eat it.

[maure 1]

You know I never said that. Nor would I ever be so disrespectful. Most of the best engineers in F1 are British, after all.

You really need to stop drinking antifreeze.

You would never be 'so disrespectful' since 'the best engineers in F1 are British'. IOW, your respect is linked to their _alledged_ nationality.

Well, as it happens, yes I did do research for Ferrari's F1 team when I was 18.

At 18 doing research, and presumably 'reputable' not the cleaning toilets type... once again you demonstrate that you don't even begin to have a clue as to what you are talking about.

[maure 1]

For me the issue is far more fundamental. I don't think the "quality" of the engineering is the issue, at least not any more. I think the whole team-based nature of the sport adds a dimension which just isn't present in a lot of other forms of motorsport. The political machinations, the movement between teams and the differentiation between the situations drivers are in are all part of it.

In addition, the best F1 drivers are often those who are able to get themselves into a good team at the right time. Sure, there's an element of luck involved, but there's also the question of how well the teams perform at selecting the right drivers. I tend to have a driver loyalty (Kimi) and a team loyalty (McLaren) which might conflict from time to time, but it makes things more exciting for me.

The biggest problem I have with Max's speccing efforts is that he's doing things in a gradual way rather than just converting to a straight spec series. By doing this he is ensuring that those at the top stay at the top, which is why we haven't had anyone to challenge McLaren and Ferrari in well over a decade. If he wants to preserve the team element of the sport whilst allowing some innovation so that the small teams can have a chance to come up with an imaginative solution to compete with the big boys, we need fewer rules and less speccing. If he wants to continue speccing he has to immediately work towards abandoning the concept of a team sport. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Renault.

[Oli 1]

Renault.

Good point- I forgot about them. I knew there was a reason why I shouldn't post on a Friday afternoon.

Forgte everything I just said- Max is doing a great job!

[Kopite Girl 0]

You really need to stop drinking antifreeze.

You would never be 'so disrespectful' since 'the best engineers in F1 are British'. IOW, your respect is linked to their _alledged_ nationality.

At 18 doing research, and presumably 'reputable' not the cleaning toilets type... once again you demonstrate that you don't even begin to have a clue as to what you are talking about.

But do you?

He said MOST of the best engineers in F1 are British. Which is true. I know its difficult for you to understand, but its there for you in plain English. No pun intended.

You can argue until the cows come home about who knows more or how much you know - but I don't see you demonstrating your knowledge to your best advantage either.

Its not how big it is, its what you do with it that counts. Best line of advice I can give you, my friend.

[F1 FANatic 1]

honestly all this talk that has been going on about pretty much reducing F1 to a spec series has made me loose all interest, for the first time in 10 years I had no desire to watch the free practices or Quali from this week end. I have literally watched ever race, either taped or live since Australia 98 but F1 had just died a slow and painful death

Singapore kinda was the last straw, a bad track, the second new horrible track of the year, stupid rules making racing a lottery instead of actually skill based, and a limit on anything innovating in F1 has really done it. All these cost cutting measures have done nothing but raise costs, the big teams spend more money to make smaller and smaller gains while the small teams are left further and further behind

Its sad to think that in the ten years since those great Mika and Michael duels F1 has become nothing more then a money spring for Bernie and the playground for a delusional Max. No matter what you think about different drivers ethics or styles there is no way you can argue that the racing has improved in the last ten years.

In the entertainment business, what F1 is doing right now is called "jumping the shark". I guess its sad for guys like Vettel and Kubi who would have had such bright futures

[Rainmaster 7]

honestly all this talk that has been going on about pretty much reducing F1 to a spec series has made me loose all interest, for the first time in 10 years I had no desire to watch the free practices or Quali from this week end. I have literally watched ever race, either taped or live since Australia 98 but F1 had just died a slow and painful death

Singapore kinda was the last straw, a bad track, the second new horrible track of the year, stupid rules making racing a lottery instead of actually skill based, and a limit on anything innovating in F1 has really done it. All these cost cutting measures have done nothing but raise costs, the big teams spend more money to make smaller and smaller gains while the small teams are left further and further behind

Its sad to think that in the ten years since those great Mika and Michael duels F1 has become nothing more then a money spring for Bernie and the playground for a delusional Max. No matter what you think about different drivers ethics or styles there is no way you can argue that the racing has improved in the last ten years.

In the entertainment business, what F1 is doing right now is called "jumping the shark". I guess its sad for guys like Vettel and Kubi who would have had such bright futures

Bah it's not all bad. C'mon tune in tomorrow, I've got a feeling Kimi is going to have a party before the race because he qualified well, and take out Hammy at turn one

[Quiet One 15]

Bah it's not all bad. C'mon tune in tomorrow, I've got a feeling Kimi is going to have a party before the race because he qualified well, and take out Hammy at turn one

I heard he is being heavily trained at Ferrari's box. They are showing him pictures of LH and walls so he can differentiate them properly at least this time.

[freaky2 1]

I heard he is being heavily trained at Ferrari's box. They are showing him pictures of LH and walls so he can differentiate them properly at least this time.

[Rainmaster 7]

I heard he is being heavily trained at Ferrari's box. They are showing him pictures of LH and walls so he can differentiate them properly at least this time.

[goferrarigo 0]

I heard he is being heavily trained at Ferrari's box. They are showing him pictures of LH and walls so he can differentiate them properly at least this time.

[Max Mosley 2]

Make no mistake about it the top five drivers in F1 are truly the best in the world. However from the point down the water gets a little muddier. You may have watched racing in America, but I bet you haven't in a few years. Nobody has!!!! I also don't think it is fair or safe to make genral comments about driver skill. Because Hammy and Vettel are making a big impression it could be that the current crop of drivers aren't as brilliant as we think they should be. That is why I am quick to challenge any claim about F1 having the best drivers in the world. Come on Murray. You said that Sato would mop the floor with every driver that races in America. You can't make claims like that and expect people to agree with them. Sato never should have been F1, and just his presence there downgraded the sport to one of politics and convenience. It was clear that being the best had nothing to do with driving in F1.

Every single guy in the last 15 years who has raced in both America and F1 has found it harder in F1 and easier in the States. That proves the general level of driving is higher in F1. Even JV has said most American series are crap now.

Vettel and Hammy are just highly talented. They would do very well in any series.

Sato should never have been in F1, and he did disgrace the sport. Nevertheless he would probably be a frontrunner in most other series imho.

For me the issue is far more fundamental. I don't think the "quality" of the engineering is the issue, at least not any more. I think the whole team-based nature of the sport adds a dimension which just isn't present in a lot of other forms of motorsport. The political machinations, the movement between teams and the differentiation between the situations drivers are in are all part of it.

In addition, the best F1 drivers are often those who are able to get themselves into a good team at the right time. Sure, there's an element of luck involved, but there's also the question of how well the teams perform at selecting the right drivers. I tend to have a driver loyalty (Kimi) and a team loyalty (McLaren) which might conflict from time to time, but it makes things more exciting for me.

The biggest problem I have with Max's speccing efforts is that he's doing things in a gradual way rather than just converting to a straight spec series. By doing this he is ensuring that those at the top stay at the top, which is why we haven't had anyone to challenge McLaren and Ferrari in well over a decade. If he wants to preserve the team element of the sport whilst allowing some innovation so that the small teams can have a chance to come up with an imaginative solution to compete with the big boys, we need fewer rules and less speccing. If he wants to continue speccing he has to immediately work towards abandoning the concept of a team sport. You can't have your cake and eat it.

It's all a matter of personal preference. Personally I don't mind the political machinations, but usually people complain about them whilst supporting a team-based sport, which is ludicrous imho. Max probably has to change F1 gradually because the teams won't agree to being made completely redundant in one go. So Max in a way offers us some political machinations of his own, as he tries to castrate the teams with their own approval!

never be 'so disrespectful' since 'the best engineers in F1 are British'

Dear oh dear. Bad engineers are bad engineers, Maure. You should know better.

At 18 doing research, and presumably 'reputable' not the cleaning toilets type... once again you demonstrate that you don't even begin to have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Awwwww. You're clearly still at the stage of idolising F1 engineers. I was like that in high school too. Don't worry: they're really, really smart people, your heroes. Quite a few actually went to university.

He said MOST of the best engineers in F1 are British. Which is true. I know its difficult for you to understand, but its there for you in plain English. No pun intended.

Maure isn't really a serious poster btw. Once you get used to him he's entertaining though.

Its sad to think that in the ten years since those great Mika and Michael duels F1 has become nothing more then a money spring for Bernie and the playground for a delusional Max. No matter what you think about different drivers ethics or styles there is no way you can argue that the racing has improved in the last ten years.

I think it has, honestly. Mika and Michael's duels are some of my favourite memories of F1 but it's easy to look back with tinted glasses. Many races between those two were settled by the cars not the drivers, and both of those drivers made errors too. Hell, Eddie Irvine almost won the WDC one year - something to bear in mind when we ridicule Ferrari's current number 2 (Massa).

[DOF_power 0]

Every single guy in the last 15 years who has raced in both America and F1 has found it harder in F1 and easier in the States. That proves the general level of driving is higher in F1. Even JV has said most American series are crap now.

Vettel and Hammy are just highly talented. They would do very well in any series.

Sato should never have been in F1, and he did disgrace the sport. Nevertheless he would probably be a frontrunner in most other series imho.

It's all a matter of personal preference. Personally I don't mind the political machinations, but usually people complain about them whilst supporting a team-based sport, which is ludicrous imho. Max probably has to change F1 gradually because the teams won't agree to being made completely redundant in one go. So Max in a way offers us some political machinations of his own, as he tries to castrate the teams with their own approval!

Dear oh dear. Bad engineers are bad engineers, Maure. You should know better.

Awwwww. You're clearly still at the stage of idolising F1 engineers. I was like that in high school too. Don't worry: they're really, really smart people, your heroes. Quite a few actually went to university.

Maure isn't really a serious poster btw. Once you get used to him he's entertaining though.

I think it has, honestly. Mika and Michael's duels are some of my favourite memories of F1 but it's easy to look back with tinted glasses. Many races between those two were settled by the cars not the drivers, and both of those drivers made errors too. Hell, Eddie Irvine almost won the WDC one year - something to bear in mind when we ridicule Ferrari's current number 2 (Massa).

Personally I don't know how many of these supposed best drivers in the World in F1 would last 5 minutes in sprint car or the NASCAR COT at Talladega.

Open wheel racing and endurance sports car is what they'd be suited for.

I've never belived in the best non-sense as it went out with the multi-purpose drivers, and motorsport was never about the best drivers.

[YHR 0]

Every single guy in the last 15 years who has raced in both America and F1 has found it harder in F1 and easier in the States. That proves the general level of driving is higher in F1. Even JV has said most American series are crap now.

Vettel and Hammy are just highly talented. They would do very well in any series.

Sato should never have been in F1, and he did disgrace the sport. Nevertheless he would probably be a frontrunner in most other series imho.

It's all a matter of personal preference. Personally I don't mind the political machinations, but usually people complain about them whilst supporting a team-based sport, which is ludicrous imho. Max probably has to change F1 gradually because the teams won't agree to being made completely redundant in one go. So Max in a way offers us some political machinations of his own, as he tries to castrate the teams with their own approval!

Dear oh dear. Bad engineers are bad engineers, Maure. You should know better.

Awwwww. You're clearly still at the stage of idolising F1 engineers. I was like that in high school too. Don't worry: they're really, really smart people, your heroes. Quite a few actually went to university.

Maure isn't really a serious poster btw. Once you get used to him he's entertaining though.

I think it has, honestly. Mika and Michael's duels are some of my favourite memories of F1 but it's easy to look back with tinted glasses. Many races between those two were settled by the cars not the drivers, and both of those drivers made errors too. Hell, Eddie Irvine almost won the WDC one year - something to bear in mind when we ridicule Ferrari's current number 2 (Massa).

Careful, different does not mean it is harder. Most comments I have heard are about the incredible braking of an F1 car vs any other. I also agree the cars are the pinnicle in motorsport. Drivers???? Who knows. Some of them seem to know what they are doing, but to claim the best drivers are all in F1 is pretty subjective. Still you are entitled to your opinion, and there are some good arguments to back up your claim. All I am saying is , once you get out of the top five you would have a hard time convincing me they are anything special.

Note SB got the Torro Rossa in the Top Ten with Vettel. If Vettel is the next best thing in F1, I guess SB must be close as well

[Rainmaster 7]

Bourdais was the Schumacher of American racing, yet he can't touch Vettel who is apparently F1's new Schumacher (the European one).

I'm not sure what it means

[YHR 0]

Bourdais was the Schumacher of American racing, yet he can't touch Vettel who is apparently F1's new Schumacher (the European one).

I'm not sure what it means

Are you kidding me!!!!!! Bourdais was the best of a bad lot, and he hardly dominated. He won the titles, but they were always down to the last two races of the season. You are totally off base with that analogy. As a matter of fact the fields were so close that it almost proves you could take any driver out of Indy car and they could do as well.

[Rainmaster 7]

Are you kidding me!!!!!! Bourdais was the best of a bad lot, and he hardly dominated. He won the titles, but they were always down to the last two races of the season. You are totally off base with that analogy. As a matter of fact the fields were so close that it almost proves you could take any driver out of Indy car and they could do as well.

Sorry, what was it five titles in a row? If that isn't domination I'm not sure what is. It doesn't matter who he beat, the point is if he beat them he was the best (since the cream always rises), which means he was one of the top American drivers. Then look at the fact he can't drive the Toro Rosso as fast as a still inexperienced Vettel, and that's just my point really.

But yeah it is a bad analogy, because Vettel is probably a brilliant driver.