Same Car?

[Autumnpuma 0]

So, we all know that each team must build their own car, but how far do we go with this? STR will take advantage of Newey's design work for their car. They will assemble the car themselves in Faenza, or, at the very least, Red Bull Racing will not assemble the car for them. So, STR will be following the rules concerning building their own car. This is not a point in dispute by Sir Frank and the other teams. The point being disputed is the design of the car, ie what the bodywork looks like.

Okay, so lets take this and run with it a bit. Newey's McLaren looks an awful lot like Newey's Red Bull (similar nose, wings and sidepods). How do you make the distinction between a Newey designed car when the designer switches teams? If we are just going by the looks of the car, then certainly McLaren, Red Bull and STR will look alike, because of having the same designer. How do we sort this out? Now we have three teams running similar designs!

[MasterPlans 0]

I am sure even if the designer leaves a team and joins another, it will be next to impossible to carry over the designs to the new team without carrying the design data/ work details from his old team to reproduce a similar looking car.

Why will Newey reinvent the wheel.

This is very dificult to stop.

[JayStorm 0]

Yeah exactly, he has developed afew successful formula and he's not going to change it a great deal, unless he is forced to. I don't have a problem with it really and I don't know how it will be stopped.

[TripleR 0]

Newey's Design at Red Bull and STR will varry from the one at McLaren why ?

1- 3 Different engines

2- Different Keels !

3- Different drivers

4- Different Nose

So if we look into RB3 and McLaren's latest car MP4/22 we feel the changes like McLaren may have the same side pods but not the same dimmension for the mid-wings , not the same Cheminees , Rear Wing , Front Wing , and most thing is different between both cars is the nose ! the Mc nose is so thin while Red Bull's is wider ...

so i dun think the trio are copies

[Autumnpuma 0]

But where do we delineate a copy from a design characteristic? Is there a threshold percentage? If more than 50% of the car is the same is it the same car? The STR will have a different engine than the RBR, so would the design differences between the two constitute a new item? It seems that having two teams' cars on the grid designed by the same man is alright (McLaren and RBR), then wouldn't the same logic hold true between STR and RBR?

[F1 FANatic 1]

I dont see anything wrong with Newey's RB3 being like the merc, lastly, he is the one designing the car, and thats not the problem I think. What RBR/STR and Honda/SA are doing is literally using a car designed and tested by another team as their own. it might be doing so via loop hole, but this still violates the spirit of the sport. you build it and you race it to the best of your ability. newey designing a car for another team doesn't go against any of those principles, having 2 team use an identical car does. and thats why i have been against customer anything, except engines, but even then i think teams should not be able to sell engines. only third parties like Coswurth or Ford who are not running cars.

[F1 FANatic 1]

I dont see anything wrong with Newey's RB3 being like the merc, lastly, he is the one designing the car, and thats not the problem I think. What RBR/STR and Honda/SA are doing is literally using a car designed and tested by another team as their own. it might be doing so via loop hole, but this still violates the spirit of the sport. you build it and you race it to the best of your ability. newey designing a car for another team doesn't go against any of those principles, having 2 team use an identical car does. and thats why i have been against customer anything, except engines, but even then i think teams should not be able to sell engines. only third parties like Coswurth or Ford who are not running cars.

[funkejay 0]

But where do we delineate a copy from a design characteristic? Is there a threshold percentage? If more than 50% of the car is the same is it the same car? The STR will have a different engine than the RBR, so would the design differences between the two constitute a new item? It seems that having two teams' cars on the grid designed by the same man is alright (McLaren and RBR), then wouldn't the same logic hold true between STR and RBR?

Unless I'm mistaken Mike, I think the issue has more to do with the intellectual property rights than the appearance of the car. Each team is required to design its own chassis, and must own the IP rights to the chassis. This is how STR were able to successfully run the slightly modified RB1 chassis last year - becuase it had been designed by a subsidiary of Ford, not by Red Bull themselves. Therefore, when STR bought the IP rights to the chassis from the subsidiary, they could successfully argue that RB had not designed the car, and they properly had exculsive rights to the IP inherent in the design.

[monza gorilla 1]

That's my understanding as well, Jay. But if the RB3 and the STR cars are designed by a third company, then it has not been designed by the teams. Surely this contravenes the rules? The same thinking applies to Super Aguri.

But I'm not against customer cars - I remember when it was part and parcel of F1 and it helped teams get onto the grid with a reasonably competitive package. How else do you think Sir Frank got started? The rules need to be clarified, and quickly.

[David Adams 0]

Indeed, seems its going for a hearing at the start of the new season - I can see why Frank Williams doesnt like the idea but unfortunately for him if it doesnt come through this season it definately will the following season - not much point arguing something that is inevitable!

Still, where would F1 be without the politics!

[Autumnpuma 0]

Unless I'm mistaken Mike, I think the issue has more to do with the intellectual property rights than the appearance of the car. Each team is required to design its own chassis, and must own the IP rights to the chassis. This is how STR were able to successfully run the slightly modified RB1 chassis last year - becuase it had been designed by a subsidiary of Ford, not by Red Bull themselves. Therefore, when STR bought the IP rights to the chassis from the subsidiary, they could successfully argue that RB had not designed the car, and they properly had exculsive rights to the IP inherent in the design.

So, I wonder how much of a car's design must be different to call it a unique design? Artwork copyrights here in the U.S. require a 15% change before it can constitute a new item. Would the differences of chassis required for two different engines be enough to call it a new item?

On the second point about buying the IP rights, could there exist a situation whereby STR and SA purchase the IP rights to a chassis design from Red Bull Technology and Honda Corporation, respectively? If this could be managed, and the car was built by STR and SA, wouldn't this be legal? I suppose I'm thinking that a car can be designed by the same person and owned by two different teams, provided both designs meet a threshold number of differences (what's that threshold, I wonder?).

[pumpdoc 2]

I don't give a rats a$$ as long as the grid is full, I think customer chassis are fine, but then again I'm an American..........

[Autumnpuma 0]

I don't give a rats a$$ as long as the grid is full, I think customer chassis are fine, but then again I'm an American..........

I agree.

[monza gorilla 1]

Precisely! Customer cars have been around since the dawn of the sport. Not just chassis but complete cars. We will just be turning the clock back a little, and I like that sort of thing.

[F1 FANatic 1]

So, I wonder how much of a car's design must be different to call it a unique design? Artwork copyrights here in the U.S. require a 15% change before it can constitute a new item. Would the differences of chassis required for two different engines be enough to call it a new item?

On the second point about buying the IP rights, could there exist a situation whereby STR and SA purchase the IP rights to a chassis design from Red Bull Technology and Honda Corporation, respectively? If this could be managed, and the car was built by STR and SA, wouldn't this be legal? I suppose I'm thinking that a car can be designed by the same person and owned by two different teams, provided both designs meet a threshold number of differences (what's that threshold, I wonder?).

the selling of the IP to another team is outlawed in the rules