VILLENEUVE IN SAUBER TALKS

[pumpdoc 2]

8) His skills although somewhat overrated are not my beef with him, and he talks a good talk about change but until I see the change it's up to him to prove that sponsors whant to be asscociated with him as a sponsors guest at a meet and greet you want the driver to at least looklike he wants to be there sign a hat or shirt and the sponsor who's spending big coin wants his guests happy you just wonder if someone who's never been that type of guy can change that's all :shock: 8)

[nojvnof1 0]

well we'll never know if noone gives him a chance.

[eddoyle 0]

well we'll never know if noone gives him a chance.

How many chances does this guy need.

If he drove as fast as he shoots his mouth off, maybe he could have matched Button.

JV will never drive an F1 car again.

Despite his high profile which is attractive to sponsors, particularly US sponsors, he creates intense friction in his working relationships which does not help the team move forward.

It is no accident that BAR moved forward dramatically the season that JV left. No team wants or needs him, and his comments to the effect that he would drive for next to nothing underscore his deperation and the value he believes he would bring to a team.

[Senna 0]

JV got on well with DH and OP. It is indeed true that at the start of the year JB and JV were far from friends but by the end of 2003 both were decidedly more friendly towards the other than they had been at the beginning of the season. Further more inter-team rivalry amongst drivers often adds extra motivation, with both drivers determined to go faster to beat the other, the only problem that can result from this is when they have needless collisions, which has happened with Ralf and JPM. However, JV and JB didn

[AutoRacer5 0]

ok i dislike JV, i got a bit o' respect for him, but i still hold those things against him.

[eddoyle 0]

Further more inter-team rivalry amongst drivers often adds extra motivation, with both drivers determined to go faster to beat the other

You comment about interteam rivalry is of course correct. Rivalry between drivers is an absolute requirement for F1.

The friction in the team I as talking about was the friction between JV and his Engineers, bosses, management, and the designers. I understand that he often tried, and succeeded, to humiliate technical staff when the car didnt perform as he wanted and expected, not pulling any punches.

Few if any of the engineering staff at Brackley were sad to loose JV.

Teams need drivers who push them, are demanding, but also understanding and supportive, and collaborative.

MS is the quintessential embodyment of this professional approach, JV is at the other end of the scale, behaving like a small child when things dont go right, ultimately acting as a focal point of conflict and stress rather than focus and progress.

It was believed Button was at the other end. being mr nice guy. But he has demonstrated that he has what it takes mentally to succeed. Im am certain that he will missed by BAR staff.

[C.A.L. 0]

I get a totally different idea of whats going on with the BAR staff ....and that is they messed up on J.V.'s F1 car from the beginning of the year with probably many having inside knowledge of the Sato Signed Sealed & delivered contract already on the hot press awaiting the ink to be poured.

BAR is messed up like a marble ice cream block ...get on the wrong side of someone and you get the SH*t used part and somewhere along the line your engine runs the weee bit of extra chance to go BAR--FFF .

Its like they stacked the Team for one driver ...just like Jaguar seems to do.

They need two good reliable cars or they are going to continue to look lopesided. Balance is needed sooner than later.

Its their party ...they probably just not strong enough throughout as of yet.

[Shadow 0]

The friction in the team I as talking about was the friction between JV and his Engineers, bosses, management, and the designers. I understand that he often tried, and succeeded, to humiliate technical staff when the car didnt perform as he wanted and expected, not pulling any punches.

Few if any of the engineering staff at Brackley were sad to loose JV.  

Teams need drivers who push them, are demanding, but also understanding and supportive, and collaborative.  

MS is the quintessential embodyment of this professional approach, JV is at the other end of the scale, behaving like a small child when things dont go right, ultimately acting as a focal point of conflict and stress rather than focus and progress.

It was believed Button was at the other end. being mr nice guy. But he has demonstrated that he has what it takes mentally to succeed. Im am certain that he will missed by BAR staff.

Well, talking of friction, did you personally interview the BAR staff about JV.

JV himself challenged his crictics to go ask the staff about his work ethics.

But, he was blunt yes, and that was what he was known for. If his mechanics went wrong and it cost him valuable points, what do you expect him to do congragulate them

[Shadow 0]

How many chances does this guy need.  

If he drove as fast as he shoots his mouth off, maybe he could have matched Button.

JV will never drive an F1 car again.  

Despite his high profile which is attractive to sponsors, particularly US  sponsors, he creates intense friction in his working relationships which does not help the team move forward.  

It is no accident that BAR moved forward dramatically the season that JV left. No team wants or needs him, and his comments to the effect that he would drive for next to nothing underscore his deperation and the value he believes he would bring to a team.

Let me get one thing straight. JV got two chances in a top racing team in 1996 and 1997, in the first season he came second in the championship and in 1997 he won it. What else do you call good record. And don't tell me BAR was a good car.Until 2004, they were absolute junk.

[nichosnz 0]

Shadow, to the point and completly accurate. Tell us eddoyle which chances did JV miss, I and a few others are struggling to see them.

As Shadow said... The BAR was junk from 1999 to 2002 and the BAR/Bridgestone package was junk in 2003, and the Williams of 1998 was not much better, so when?

[Senna 0]

JV was only in a top car in his first two years of F1

[pumpdoc 2]

JV was only in a top car in his first two years of F1

[Shadow 0]

Well, Senna, did it slip your mind that at all times JV qualified with almost twice the amount of fuel than JB. To prove this, look at Spain, JB pits on the 10th lap, JV on the 29th. Furthermore JB beat JV 9-7 I think in qualifying.And oh,JV was only about a couple of tenths behind on most races even with that fuel. If you say that he could have prevented his nine mechanical failures( gearbox, engine, steering wheel etc etc..), then I disagree. His machinery was worthless.

[nojvnof1 0]

agree with all of you, you all make fair points. Well, except for eddoyle, but nobody is perfect :wink: just joking mate. Regards JV last year, if BAR gave him a car which went the distance, I doubt he would have complained as much. His reliability was attrocious. He only finished 5 races out of 15, and has problems in two of those. Remember Austria, he lost all electronics at the start of lap 1, had no speed indicator, gear number and changed gears by listening to engine and helped by Jock in relation to pitlane limiter, hence his stall. He would have gotten 5th with the probs, maybe 4th without them. Some of the problems he had were disgraceful, like the one in Canada, bleeding brakes, quoting Martin Brundle "Ive never heard of anything like this". When JV was running reliably he was on par with Jense and would beat him sometimes. Don't forget his friday run in oz under immense pressure having completed 2 laps in practice.

JV''s strategy last year was to go with lots of fuel and do better in the race. Take Spain for instance, JB outq'd JV by a mile, but due to the start accident and safety car he was right behind Button. JB pitted after 10 laps, would have been earlier if no safety car, JV was right behind, sticking with JB, with a heavier load mind you, he had about 8 laps more, then his car konked it.

[Shadow 0]

For all JV fans: Don't you visit jv-world.com. If not then, you missed something. JV's season review was written once and I tell you, it gives you a fair idea of how much bad luck he had in 2003.

28 Sep 2003 Indianapolis 12th Retired: Engine

14 Sep 2003 Monza 10th 6th

24 Aug 2003 Hungaroring 16th Retired: Hydraulics

03 Aug 2003 Hockenheim 13th 9th

20 Jul 2003 Silverstone 9th 10th

06 Jul 2003 Magny-Cours 12th 9th

29 Jun 2003 Nurburgring 17th Retired: Gearbox

15 Jun 2003 Montreal 14th Retired: Brakes Failed

01 Jun 2003 Monte Carlo 11th Retired: Engine

18 May 2003 A-1 Ring 12th 12th

04 May 2003 Barcelona 11th Retired: Electrics

20 Apr 2003 Imola 7th Retired: Oil fire

06 Apr 2003 Interlagos 13th 6th

23 Mar 2003 Sepang 12th Retired: DNS:gearbox on dummy grid

09 Mar 2003 Melbourne 6th 9th

[Shadow 0]

Note that the above post does'nt count the races in which he had mechanical gremlins and still finished like nojvnof1 pointed out

[Senna 0]

Well, Senna, did it slip your mind that at all times JV qualified with almost twice the amount of fuel than JB. To prove this, look at Spain, JB pits on the 10th lap, JV on the 29th. Furthermore JB beat JV 9-7 I think in qualifying.And oh,JV was only about a couple of tenths behind on most races even with that fuel. If you say that he could have prevented his nine mechanical failures( gearbox, engine, steering wheel etc etc..), then I disagree. His machinery was worthless.

I think JV did a good job in 2003 in what was a poor and unreliable car. I was merely trying to explain what I thought eddoyle was trying to say, but what he couldn

[eddoyle 0]

Shadow wrote: 

Well, Senna, did it slip your mind that at all times JV qualified with almost twice the amount of fuel than JB. To prove this, look at Spain, JB pits on the 10th lap, JV on the 29th. Furthermore JB beat JV 9-7 I think in qualifying.And oh,JV was only about a couple of tenths behind on most races even with that fuel. If you say that he could have prevented his nine mechanical failures( gearbox, engine, steering wheel etc etc..), then I disagree. His machinery was worthless. 

I think JV did a good job in 2003 in what was a poor and unreliable car. I was merely trying to explain what I thought eddoyle was trying to say, but what he couldn

[eddoyle 0]

Final comment.

Success in F1 requires not simply good drivers. It requires good teams. The lead driver and the team principal are the two people most capable fo defining the vision, and esatblishing the structure, which raises the performance of the team to a level that no individual could achieve on their own.

We live in an era when one driver and one team understand this above all else.

Some drivers believe that with competitive hardware they can compete for points, perhaps even titles. This may be true, perhaps even for JV. However the class driver knows that even with uncompetive hardware, but with the right commitment, direction, and resources they can win points and honours but it takes time, sustained effort, and self control. During this period they need to work WITH the team to make this progress, during the downs as well as the ups.

I think we have seen in the last 24 months that BAR had such a driver, but he was English not Canadian.

[nojvnof1 0]

If Button is so great, why was he always asking JV for advice on car setup, and was asking JV to speak on his behalf to Honda??!! He knows bugger all about car development and Honda were vital in JV resigning in '01 as they were high in praise for his developmental skills. JB got lucky that he got JV at his psychological worst, after 5 years of fruitless work. If BAR are to believed JB ditched them with a signed contract, what an example of team player

Why was his performance last year pathetic?? He showed that when the car ran, he was up there. We've proved out point, prove yours!! Qualifying doesnt count, wel not much of it, JV qualified on higher fuel and would have had more points if he had reliability. As for testing, yes he hated it, but last year JV was the driver who had completed the most testing KM!!!!!! Hence his dedication once he saw something promising is proven. Why waste time on something that cant be improved!!??

Mind games are a part of JVs nature, and helped him reach the top, why change a succesful formula, besides, the only negative of it was what happened with Button, which even Button himself put it down to DR talking BS about Button. How do we know Montoya couldnt beat M$ in equal equipment, and as for Barrichello, hes not allowed to per his contract, hes a number two in the very essence of it. Fact is BAR moved forward due to Willis and his team being hired...by Pollock, whilst DR is a proven leader of teams hence he deserves some credit, but Willis designed the car. JV is a driver, not an aerodynamicist, the area where the cars pre 03 lacked, with an engine which was overweight and utterly prone to exploding. I agree with you, JV isnt a class act, hes not in the class of Senna, Prost, Clark etc, that I am ready and willing to admit.

[Shadow 0]

If Button is so great, why was he always asking JV for advice on car setup, and was asking JV to speak on his behalf to Honda??!! He knows bugger all about car development and Honda were vital in JV resigning in '01 as they were high in praise for his developmental skills.  JB got lucky that he got JV at his psychological worst, after 5 years of fruitless work. If BAR are to believed JB ditched them with a signed contract, what an example of team player   

Why was his performance last year pathetic?? He showed that when the car ran, he was up there. We've proved out point, prove yours!! Qualifying doesnt count, wel not much of it, JV qualified on higher fuel and would have had more points if he had reliability. As for testing, yes he hated it, but last year JV was the driver who had completed the most testing KM!!!!!! Hence his dedication once he saw something promising is proven. Why waste time on something that cant be improved!!?? 

Mind games are a part of JVs nature, and helped him reach the top, why change a succesful formula, besides, the only negative of it was what happened with Button, which even Button himself put it down to DR talking BS about Button. How do we know Montoya couldnt beat M$ in equal equipment, and as for Barrichello, hes not allowed to per his contract, hes a number two in the very essence of it. Fact is BAR moved forward due to Willis and his team being hired...by Pollock, whilst DR is a proven leader of teams hence he deserves some credit, but Willis designed the car. JV is a driver, not an aerodynamicist, the area where the cars pre 03 lacked, with an engine which was overweight and utterly prone to exploding. I agree with you, JV isnt a class act, hes not in the class of Senna, Prost, Clark etc, that I am ready and willing to admit.

What you said is absolutely 100% correct. Also remember what JPM said before JB joined BAR. He said JV used to play tactics with team-mates in pre testing he would be slower and in the race he would pull a second out of nowhere and leave his poor team-mate gasping.As it stands that was what happened in Aus GP 2003.JV was'nt able to demonstrate his superiority simply because he qualified with a heavier fuel load and had the worst reliability record on the grid(as bad as 1999 perhaps).

[Shadow 0]

And eddoyle please don't combine two quotes from two different persons the next time you reply.You kinda messed it up :idea: .

[Senna 0]

Both eddoyle and nojvnof1 make some good points but you

[eddoyle 0]

nojvnof1 its allways a pleasure crossing swords, you and Senna are two of the most knowlegeable people out there.. anyway here are my thoughts on your comments

If Button is so great, why was he always asking JV for advice on car setup, and was asking JV to speak on his behalf to Honda??

Button wasnt a 'great' thats why McLaren, Prost, Williams and Benetton all let him go. He is becoming a great. Car Setup in f1 is not like car set up in FPA or F3000 or the like. It requires F1 experience to be a good development driver, Button is getting to be one having been a race driver with three teams. When he started at BAR he sought advise from JV, this is the right thing to do, as the senior driver. If the senior driver plays silly buggers thats his choice. It certainly hasnt hindered Buttons career, it has hindered Jacques.

JB got lucky that he got JV at his psychological worst, after 5 years of fruitless work. If BAR are to believed JB ditched them with a signed contract, what an example of team player

Fair point, but my focus is helping the team evolve,

Why was his performance last year pathetic??

This is in fairness probably an overstatement, but I judge JV not on his performance solely when he is in the race seat, but on his contribution to the development of the package, which includes reliability.

last year JV was the driver who had completed the most testing KM!!!!!!Why waste time on something that cant be improved!!??

Obviously it could be improved he had 9 mechanical failures !!! MS believes in test test and retest to the point of exhaustion. F1 drivers are not paid simply to turn up at the race weekend and coast the car around the track (though you might think that reading some of the comments on this site from time to time). They are paid to develop the car in terms of performance and reliability. It aint sexy but its important, its what gets cars to run race distance. If Jacques had completed all his neccessary testing why did his car fail so often ?

Mind games are a part of JVs nature, and helped him reach the top, why change a succesful formula

Because success requires selecting the right strategy for the right situation. As circumstances change so should you approach. What works for a young firebrand driving a competitive champioship winning car, is not what works for a senior pro driving a lame car with a ramshackle team (BTW - it was JV's choice to move to BAR, no-one held a gun to his head )

How do we know Montoya couldnt beat M$ in equal equipment

Sorry, to be clear on this, I dint mean Montoya could not beat MS in a race in equal equipment, he probably could, hes a super exiting driver. What I meant he could never beat him over a season because he lacks the willingness to test test and retest and improve to the point of terminal tedium, and then drive a faultless race, race after race after race.

Willis and his team being hired...by Pollock

yea only in desperation because Pollocks bestest buddy Adrian Reynard was a disaster... but Pollock couldnt sack him, cause he had given him in a major slice of the company Doh !!

[C.A.L. 0]

eddoyle ....your talking total crap and illogical B.S. on J.V. and testing issues.

That BAR..FFF was not his fault , it is the disregarding state of mind of the Team boss and Honda engineers.

The year both Jordan and BAR..FFF had the same engines they both had nearly the same amount of problems with engine failures. In fact the Jordan team qualified generally a little better probably due to a higher risk on the aero with the cooling results.

The BAR car had too good of cooling and would not get the optimum temperature for performance.

Honda sprend themselves too thin and needed to compile their efforts with one team ..which they choose as BAR.

Now look at Williams when their BMW engine was failing from overheating in previous years, the same year Jacques got a podium at Germany ....many of the top cars failed with the Heat that race ,but both BARs came home . Even Jacques was abit surprised , but it does have reason.

Jacques can not be made to hold the engineering issues of testing when overheating and such like conditions can not be resolved by even Williams and BMW ....and why is it that Button's car is Great ,while Sato's car blows up ? Must be Sato's fault now ...right?

Williams took two years to get reliable enough to challenge last year against Ferrari ....still some engine failures on J.P.M. car cost him two race wins....whom is to blame (J.P.M. ?) Bull .

Look at Kimi at Mclaren , last year very close to winning ...had a engine failure while leading a race way ahead of everyone ...one of the few he had that year , now this year Blown engine after blown engine ...his fault ? or that of the testers which have remained the same for two years ?

Or was it Newys ? Bull ....

For the record M.SCHum. landed into a Benetton Team while they were basically 3rd or 4th in F1 ....with Nelson Piquet as the other driver, M.SCHum never had a lousey Team and never had more than 5 DNF's in any one year, even with the Ferrari Team he went to after Benetton.

But guess what , the OTHER driver had more than 4-5 DNF's .....Many Teams only support one driver when they have not got their crap together or can only provide big effort for one of them. (Their Golden Boy)

Not much changes ...except should you have the funding, (M.SCHum signed with Ferrari for 25M the year he went there)....yet Ferrari still had money to provide for their Private Test tracks etc....and still took to the 5th year before they won the WDC. You think it would of achieved it faster had they not paid M.SCHum the 25M ? ....nah...

Its still takes Time to get to the Top and stay there, lower teams with less funding take More Time and the Engines of TOP manufacturers still can fail ..the drivers are of much less of the factor in this all .

M.SCHum at Benetton Ford works engine VS SENNA at McLaren with Ford Customer engines explains alot toward the real support of a driver & Team.