VILLENEUVE IN SAUBER TALKS

[eddoyle 0]

CAL Wow Wow

Firstly .. This is not a defend all things Canadian thing. Canada is a fantastic country, much loved and admired by all. And JV is revered in Canada as a national hero, I understand that. However he is a flawed individual, fair enough nobodys perfect. He makes outrageous and derogatory comments to and about those around him thats just his way, hes emotional and he lets his feelings get in the way of his judgement. Too many examples to quote really, but his incomprehensible decision to join his mate at BAR in 98, rather than take a competitive seat after williams is proably the most obvious. Im sure he regrets this flawed career decisions, he is (or at least was) impetuous and immature but as I say nobody is perfect.

So lets deal with the facts

I personally believe that JV lost motivation at BAR and that if he returned to a top team he would shine once again.

I think you are almost certainly right in this. JV bought into the idea of building a team with his former school teacher, but he lacked the tenacity to take it forward. He wanted to win races, now today, not tomorrow, he lacked the discipline to maintain his focus.

Honda sprend themselves too thin and needed to compile their efforts

I dont buy this stuff about the Honda engine being the cause of JV failures. Firstly it wasnt a Honda engine, it was an Ilmor engine, built by the same people who where building the Mclaren engine at the time and winning races. If they could build them for Mcclaren why could they not build them for Honda ? Secondly on the Jordan side,

Jacques can not be made to hold the engineering issues of testing when overheating and such like conditions can not be resolved by even Williams and BMW

This might be true of another driver, but Jacques was a significant shareholder in the team, his mate was team principle for gods sake. If the shareholders and the team principle arent responsible for engineering failures who is ? Even in his role as driver he should have made it clear ***in private**** what he expected from those around him, not 5 minutes after qualifying and to anyone who would listen.

M.SCHum never had a lousey Team

Well its true than M$ never chose to drive for a lousey team, he is too professional and calculating for that. But I dont think you would deny that he has been instrumental in delivering professionalism at Ferrari at every level.

still took to the 5th year before they won the WDC

True but in the intervening period, did you ever hear him comment that th reason the team were not performing was that they were incompetent or here him rubbish his rookie team mate ? No ? thats professionalism.

Finally in response to your point about Jacques having the worst luck with engine failures in the history of f1, I dont buy that either. Some drivers are silky smooth some are car breakers. Sato was marked as a wild car breaker with Jordan, hes still a car breaker, but to be fair to him he is modifying his style to keep things together. I do believe for sure that some drivers have more mechanical failures than others, simply because they are wild and agressive. But that style belongs in a differnent era the modern F1 champion is a master of the mental as well as physical.

Mark my words Kimi will finish the season with more points than JPM next year.

But anyway... hey its all fun.. and far from thinking you are speaking BS, I think you make some very salient points. And good on ya for defending that great country !!

[C.A.L. 0]

We agree that Someone or group were more responsible then another group.

I think Pollock could not intervene with the technical part of the BAR ...so he was less able to help there. I really believe techical people handle the Technical issues while the Driver handles the racing part.

I see it more of like at Williams in 1998 when the Williams lost the Renault/Slicks and chassis and got down-graded main replacement components while everyone else remained in place. J.V was still better than H.H.F. and was best of the rest of the top teams.

Panis was also at BAR and he had even worse finishing record than Jacques.

(I think Panis is a good driver & positive) But he still got the same sh*t parts.

Should your thinking on the driver being hard on the car be more to due with the reliability results then Sato seems right out of place. Sato must do testing big time and PR with that happy face ...still breaks down like in Monaco before he has had chance to be hard on the car.

This must also apply to Kimi also this year or did he just get poor parts in the beginning and now has better parts ... same driver.

[nojvnof1 0]

nojvnof1 its allways a pleasure crossing swords, you and Senna are two of the most knowlegeable people out there.. anyway here are my thoughts on your comments

If Button is so great, why was he always asking JV for advice on car setup, and was asking JV to speak on his behalf to Honda??

Button wasnt a 'great' thats why McLaren, Prost, Williams and Benetton all let him go. He is becoming a great. Car Setup in f1 is not like car set up in FPA or F3000 or the like. It requires F1 experience to be a good development driver, Button is getting to be one having been a race driver with three teams. When he started at BAR he sought advise from JV, this is the right thing to do, as the senior driver. If the senior driver plays silly buggers thats his choice. It certainly hasnt hindered Buttons career, it has hindered Jacques.

JB got lucky that he got JV at his psychological worst, after 5 years of fruitless work. If BAR are to believed JB ditched them with a signed contract, what an example of team player

Fair point, but my focus is helping the team evolve,

Why was his performance last year pathetic??

This is in fairness probably an overstatement, but I judge JV not on his performance solely when he is in the race seat, but on his contribution to the development of the package, which includes reliability.

last year JV was the driver who had completed the most testing KM!!!!!!Why waste time on something that cant be improved!!??

Obviously it could be improved he had 9 mechanical failures !!! MS believes in test test and retest to the point of exhaustion. F1 drivers are not paid simply to turn up at the race weekend and coast the car around the track (though you might think that reading some of the comments on this site from time to time). They are paid to develop the car in terms of performance and reliability. It aint sexy but its important, its what gets cars to run race distance. If Jacques had completed all his neccessary testing why did his car fail so often ?

Mind games are a part of JVs nature, and helped him reach the top, why change a succesful formula

Because success requires selecting the right strategy for the right situation. As circumstances change so should you approach. What works for a young firebrand driving a competitive champioship winning car, is not what works for a senior pro driving a lame car with a ramshackle team (BTW - it was JV's choice to move to BAR, no-one held a gun to his head )

How do we know Montoya couldnt beat M$ in equal equipment

Sorry, to be clear on this, I dint mean Montoya could not beat MS in a race in equal equipment, he probably could, hes a super exiting driver. What I meant he could never beat him over a season because he lacks the willingness to test test and retest and improve to the point of terminal tedium, and then drive a faultless race, race after race after race.

Willis and his team being hired...by Pollock

yea only in desperation because Pollocks bestest buddy Adrian Reynard was a disaster... but Pollock couldnt sack him, cause he had given him in a major slice of the company Doh !!

likewise ed!! You've made some pretty good points, but I don't see how JV could be held responsible for the reliability or lack of rather, of his car. JV is a driver, not an enginner. It isn't he who hires the staff. Yes he has stakes in the team, but as a driver.

JV made a silly mistake at the start of last year with his mind games, but I could see why he did it. The media and DR were parading JB as the best thing since sliced bread, whilst JV, with all his achievements, was put forward as a rookie with no right to be in the sport. This was a travesty, and JV snapped in the only way he knew how. JV has helped the team evolve in my opinion, I only see it as a coincidence that the team came good once he left. '03 was the interim year, this year was the big year and JV knew that, but circumstances, some his own doing, prevented him from benefiting from those years of toil. Yes, I agree JV is responsible for the move to BAR, but we cant fault him for having a dream and trying to live it out. He tried and failed, but at least he knows where he now stands.

As for the future JV, if he is given a chance to return, I forecast 2 maybe 3 years of JV at his peak. He is hungry and willing to do almost anything to a. return and b. fight for the title. JV should at least be given 1 year to show he has truly learned, as he states in interviews, and can shut the ever biased media up.

Get your point re. JPM, I agree with that.

[Lord Death 0]

Villeneuve is crap and will never be back. :mrgreen:

[C.A.L. 0]

Some people never change ....the Hatred group against J.V. ....probably some regular Hatred person from another forum just setting up a new account to post more ...Hatred.

[Taku 0]

Villeneuve is crap and will never be back.  :mrgreen:

what an intelligent contribution to the discussion...

[Shadow 0]

Villeneuve is crap and will never be back.  :mrgreen:

what an intelligent contribution to the discussion...

Yeah, and it is his first post too. Some people hate JV just for the sake of it. :x

[Lord Death 0]

Villeneuve is a ****ing idiot ! :mrgreen:

[AutoRacer5 0]

In the bedroom?

[pumpdoc 2]

8) This thread on JV is somewhat amazing as to the love being shown to a driver who has been pretty much a non-factor for so many yrs. Be honest what realy has he done since williams? come on name the big things he's done! Please show me where he's tore up the compation. Good drivers find a way to win, and I'm not going to list all of the drivers over the yrs. who have done so. Some drivers win inspite of themselves when handed a supioror car, some can't get out of their own way. I don't hate JV as some have said, I'm just not a fan of his which is my right as is your's to gush over him :wink:

[AutoRacer5 0]

I'm intrigued at why he can't just go back to CART or go to IRL. I mean, I would like to see him go in F1, but he has to have a good shot in order to do it. (Nicklaus, Lord Death, put the damn AK-47s down). Either way, it will be interesting to see what he can or will do IF he can get a competitive ride.

[Shadow 0]

Villeneuve is a f#@king idiot  !  :mrgreen:

You had better shut your tongue.And soon.

[nojvnof1 0]

I'm intrigued at why he can't just go back to CART or go to IRL. I mean, I would like to see him go in F1, but he has to have a good shot in order to do it. (Nicklaus, Lord Death, put the damn AK-47s down). Either way, it will be interesting to see what he can or will do IF he can get a competitive ride.

JV wont race in either of those series. He said CART is a step down from F1, and he's won it and Indy 500 already and he says IRL is no fun and very easy to get hurt in. Fair enough.

pumpdoc, yep you do have a right to not like JV, and thankfully you don't resort to low and downright stupid comments when discussing JV, which is a rarity I assure you In a sense you are right, JV has done bugger all since Williams, but you'll find alot of his fans are a loyal bunch and won't drop him because of a few bad years. We're not bandwagoners and some have been fans of his since his days in the U.S. Im not sure whether you're a M$ fan, or Ferrari fan or both, but when they had lean years, Im sure you didn't want to drop them and just follow whoever was winning, I'm presuming you stuck with them and held out for the glory years of now. Well, unfortunately our glory years were short, quick, but very very sweet, I assure you.

If you measure success in race wins, then yes, JV has done nothing. But as FW said earlier, and its a quote Ive recited many times on this board. "A driver is always coloured by his car." JV had two shots at the title and came second and first. Yes he had the best car, but so did Frentzen. He has beaten every teammate he has had bar Hill - got close, too close for his rookie year, and Button - one word, UNRELIABILITY!! .JV put the BAR into heights noone thought possible, especially in 1999 and 2000. Respected journos were scathing of BAR, but not Jacques, and called it a criminal waste of talent. JV made some rocket starts and drove some brilliant races, and even led M$ in a few of them, Michael couldnt pass him until the pit stops. I could go race by race from 99 -03 and show what a great job JV did, but I wont bore you with them. Except for a few

Imola 99 quali - 5th

Spain 99 race - led Michael from start til first stops in a slower car, M$ couldnt pass til stops

2000 - regular top 10 qualifier, when he finished races mostly they were in the points, had podium positions taken through unreliability (Monza), mixed it with McLarens and Ferrari's (Monza, Canada), last to fourth in Austria; not a race of attrition.

2001 - two podiums, lucky, but he got the car home and utilised his superior strategy, great drive in Monaco.

2002 - nothing much really, great drives in Silverstone and Indy

2003 - Australia and France first quali, Monza, other races he drove well, but unreliability.

JV is also more than a driver, we follow him because he's something different. He's not everyones cup of tea, but we appreciate he's out there in a way, always speaking his mind damn the consequences. He's an individual, a non conformist and if he saw something wrong, he stated it (Monza'01, mid 97 calling the 98 rules '$hit etc). JV has a massive loyal and dedicated fan base, but an equally large anti brigade. JV polarises opinions, as does Senna, Schumi etc. Before you jump on my back, Im not comparing him to Senna in terms of skills. Name ex drivers, apart from those of yesteryear who still make front covers of magazines. JV made the front cover of Autosport only 2 or 3 weeks ago, which means he is still a big name, and a big attraction for F1. At the end of the day, if JV doesn't return, at least he achieved all he wanted.

[Shadow 0]

JV polarises opinions, as does Senna, Schumi etc. Before you jump on my back, Im not comparing him to Senna in terms of skills.

No one is going to jump on your back,sonny. We all accept Senna is the better driver, no disputing anything about that. But maybe Gilles could give Senna a fight,not JV.

[Senna 0]

We're not bandwagoners and some have been fans of his since his days in the U.S. Im not sure whether you're a M$ fan, or Ferrari fan or both, but when they had lean years, Im sure you didn't want to drop them and just follow whoever was winning, I'm presuming you stuck with them and held out for the glory years of now.

Michael Schumacher

[C.A.L. 0]

We're not bandwagoners and some have been fans of his since his days in the U.S. Im not sure whether you're a M$ fan, or Ferrari fan or both, but when they had lean years, Im sure you didn't want to drop them and just follow whoever was winning, I'm presuming you stuck with them and held out for the glory years of now.

Michael Schumacher

[Senna 0]

C.A.L., you don

[AutoRacer5 0]

Michael Schumacher’s idea of a lean year is finishing in second place!

Ayrton Senna was the best driver F1 has ever seen.

MS is a perfectionist, no doubt about that, and from a statistical point of view, MS was better, but Senna's pole record will fall soon, I say it does before the end of the year.

[Senna 0]

MS is a perfectionist, no doubt about that, and from a statistical point of view, MS was better, but Senna's pole record will fall soon, I say it does before the end of the year.

Statistical achievements are made meaningless if one doesn

[pumpdoc 2]

8) I laugh out loud when I read your logic Spink, it's as if it's a crime to surround yourself with the best, and the way you describe Senna as to his attention to detail is also describing MS, even Schummi doesn't compare himself to Senna, in fact he admires him from as far back as '80 when watching him in karts. And don't even call the '96 or '97 Ferrari's the best car they both were ill handling pigs that he managed to still drive to victory.

[Senna 0]

8) I laugh out loud when I read your logic Spink, it's as if it's a crime to surround yourself with the best, and the way you describe Senna as to his attention to detail is also describing MS, even Schummi doesn't compare himself to Senna, in fact he admires him from as far back as '80 when watching him in karts. And don't even call the '96 or '97 Ferrari's the best car they both were ill handling pigs that he managed to still drive to victory.

I

[pumpdoc 2]

8) I'm not here to get into a p**sing match with you, and I do read your posts, it's just hard to respond with out getting into a flame war. Ok he's never had a BAD car so what thats his fault? He's like Senna and all racing greats they do whatever they have to do to win, of course the % are different MS has been in more races again his fault? I'm not or never have downplayed Senna's great carrear. I've never said I'm a f1 EXPERT but I've been a fan and a race goer for nigh on 35 yrs and not just F1, I've raced in the past for almost 15yrs in the toughest form of racing there is Desert off-road and I know what it takes to win, I've crewed on many other race teams from SCCA to IMSA GTP with Nissan so don't get on your high and mighty horse and call me ignorant

[C.A.L. 0]

Senna , my comments to your original posting on M.SCHum. idea of a lean year was finishing 2nd was kind of explaining why he has had a "pumped-up" (puffed up ?) results.

I do not think M.SCHum. has shown alot to point to his real ability as a true F1 racer on more equal terms ,but more so to unequal terms to the point of "Lording it over" the other driver.

M.SCHum has had it easy always riding with the 2nd best engine at least.

I am not going to be convinced easily otherwise of his equipment record.

Some of M.SCHum.'s teamates might be alot better than they appeared had they been allowed to race on more equal terms. (I believe many accept this)

[AutoRacer5 0]

One thing you are all overlooking, none of his teammates had the ability, whether team orders were given or not. Rubens can race him, Indianapolis prove this? When Rubens is on, he's on, Silverstone 2003, Suzuka 2003? Irvine was crap, no matter what anyone says. 2000 at Jag proved it.

[nojvnof1 0]

One thing you are all overlooking, none of his teammates had the ability, whether team orders were given or not. Rubens can race him, Indianapolis prove this? When Rubens is on, he's on, Silverstone 2003, Suzuka 2003? Irvine was crap, no matter what anyone says. 2000 at Jag proved it.

ok, so Rubens is good 2 races a year, 3 tops, hell of a teammate. Look, Senna beat Prost, in an equal car, can't see M$ either accepting a teammate of Prosts calibre or beating him!! As for M$ poles, those from last year onwards mean nothing with this system. Look, Schumacher is great, but Senna was better 8)

Shadow, I don't think Gilles would have matched Senna, Ayrton was very very good technically and the like, whilst Gilles just drove the balls off the car, however in terms of raw speed, Gilles v Ayrton would have been the best contest F1 has ever seen!! Sadly we'll never know