Italian Gp: Best/worst Of Race

[bajo39 0]

I'm not blaming JV for this at all Funkejay. He has every right to defend his position, but my comment was directed towards Bajo, as he seemed to be suggesting that Montoya should have held Alonso so that Kimi could catch up later. That can't be Montoya's fault if JV didn't let Kimi through, or if Kimi couldn't pass a driver who was on a inferior machinery. How can he blame Montoya for that and that was my point, and nothing against JV.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monty, you have no point. What JV did to Kimi was precisely what Juan should have done to Alonso, held him up. I don't understand why this is so difficult for you?

[bajo39 0]

Irrelevant to the discussion, as the grid lineup would not have changed.

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That was why it was in brackets (to show that it was a side point). Okay?

What do you mean that JPM's contribution has been a fraction. He has contributed 50 points to Kimi's 76 points with 2 less races. So your point makes no sense.

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JPM's contribution has been 3/5ths of Kimi's - that is a fraction.

With regards to your second point, JPM's job was to hold Alonso, so that Kimi can climb up the order and pass him. Right. Now lets talk about Kimi's job, his was to quickly pass the mid order cars ( with inferior machinery) and catch up with Alonso. Given this scenario, tell me who dropped the ball. JPM not only managed to get a clean start and was ahead of the fast starting Renaults by the first corner. (Job well done, as expected of him)

[bajo39 0]

I think its important to note that Christian Albers so much praised skill is driving him against the yellow cars at all first corners in the races, in another race TM and today NK, if its skill blowing up the rear tire of his direct competitors in the first corner race after race, then I dont know...

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Christian was noted in the 'worst of' section, what more do you want? Besides, from the helicopter shot it appeared that Karthikeyan cut accross the chicane for no particular reason and sliced his own tyre on Albers' wing.

[bajo39 0]

Monty: the much respected Steve Matchett on Wind Tunnel described Montoya as being an individualist, ie not a team player, precisely because he did not employ the strategy I described before the race.

Cavallino: Matchett mentioned the rumour circulating the paddock that Michelin were considering presenting a letter that they would withdraw from F1 if the FIA made it a one-tyre series.

[bajo39 0]

The old Jordan is now approximately three years old, and is a notoriously difficult car to drive, but it is not really slower than Minardi's new chassis. They are pretty close to being on par for outright speed,

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That is your opinion Jay and it is not one that is shared by the majority of the forum. The forum is of the opinion that the Jordan-Toyota is a faster machine than the Minardi-Cosworth.

but your strongest argument is that it requires much greater skill to get a comparable time out of the Jordan without tossing it off the track. The new Minardi by comparison seems a properly sorted F1 car, albeit one that would benefit from some desperately needed development.

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Nearly every qualy lap I have seen from a Minardi driver, particularly Albers, has shown the car to be more than handful... The same is not true of Monteiro's laps in the old Jordan, which look cool, calm and collected, and thus there can be no argument that the Jordan is more difficult to drive fast than the Minardi. If anything, they are both equally difficult to drive on the limit but I would suggest to you that if Karter looks like he is having a tough time with the Jordan chassis, it is because he lacks car control. This of course is substantiated by the enormous gulf between the finishing records of the two Jordan drivers.

But with the new Jordan/Midland chassis, there won't be any more excuses. It looked a right nice ride all weekend at Monza.

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There are no excuses at the moment!

[johndifo 0]

There are no excuses at the moment!

I think the car is still crap... the tyres dont help also, except at indy...

[bajo39 0]

I think the car is still crap... the tyres dont help also, except at indy...

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Well yeah, the Minardi and the Jordan-Toyota are both crap...

[Monty 0]

JPM's contribution has been 3/5ths of Kimi's - that is a fraction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you talk about fractions it is generally implied to be on the lower side and especially in this context it sounds like the contribution has been insignificant. So I guess we can also say that Kimi has made a fraction of the contribution of his teammate to the CC

I'm not blaming Montoya for Kimi's race result, where did you get that idea?  I am merely saying that JPM executed a selfish and less than optimal strategy from the perspective of the WDC and CC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are not?????? This is what you said in your earlier post.

From there Montoya - who by virtue of his disgracefully poor season, has no relevance in the WDC (and has made a fraction of the contribution of his teammate to the CC) - was to hold up Alonso while Kimi caught up

Once when he realised that Kimi is not able to get through the pack, he had to do what is best for the team. SCORE MAXIMUM POINTS. How can that be construed as a selfish act. He stuck to the strategy given by the team, and accomplished that, just because you have a stupid strategy that says he should make up for Kimi's mistakes so that Kimi can win is laughable. If RD was expecting anything different from him, he would have hired Rubens.

Monty, you have no point.  What JV did to Kimi was precisely what Juan should have done to Alonso, held him up.  I don't understand why this is so difficult for you?

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That is exactly what he did. He was ahead of Alonso, kept a reasonable distance, and if Kimi couldn't get past JV, then that his problem. And please don't give this crap about Kimi being heavy and that's why JV passed him. Bull Sh#t. He c##ked up period. You have no point here bajo, and I don't know why it is difficult for you to understand.

[Monty 0]

Monty: the much respected Steve Matchett on Wind Tunnel described Montoya as being an individualist, ie not a team player, precisely because he did not employ the strategy I described before the race.

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I guess, you have quoted Steve because he backs your argument, but you will discard him as soon as he disagrees with your point right. (remember Planet F1 team mate wars about NK & TM)

[cavallino 2]

The same is not true of Monteiro's laps in the old Jordan, which look cool, calm and collected, and thus there can be no argument that the Jordan is more difficult to drive fast than the Minardi.

Yes and Monteiro's laps have been consistently slow. Karthikeyan has pushed the car harder which has meant that when he got a lap together he ended up ahead of monteiro and when he made a big mistake he ended up a bit behind. that explains the disparity between him and TM in qualifying times which has been pretty big, one way or the other. Colin Kolles himself has said that NK is the faster driver but we do not have the car to let him drive fast ( I will be glad if someone can dig up the quote from F1 Racing, I don't have the magazine).

I am sure once NK gets the new car he will be a lot faster than TM. Unfortunately he will have to wait one more race, which just shows you the state of midland right now. They do not have enough parts to get 2 cars working.

I disagree about your judgement of driving styles. The present minardi looks a fairly drivable machine, even Doorknobs has come to grips with it pretty fast.

This of course is substantiated by the enormous gulf between the finishing records of the two Jordan drivers.

take out the number of technical problems that Karthikeyan has had and the stats look far less impressive. you obviously have to ignore the last race when he was driving far inferior machinery.

The old Jordan is now approximately three years old, and is a notoriously difficult car to drive, but it is not really slower than Minardi's new chassis. They are pretty close to being on par for outright speed, but your strongest argument is that it requires much greater skill to get a comparable time out of the Jordan without tossing it off the track. The new Minardi by comparison seems a properly sorted F1 car, albeit one that would benefit from some desperately needed development.

But with the new Jordan/Midland chassis, there won't be any more excuses. It looked a right nice ride all weekend at Monza.

Thanks for that, you put it better than I could.

[cavallino 2]

and I dont see the point of your continuing reference to the rest of the forum, the majority of the forum etc. for example to me the opinion of FJ is worth far more than many others on the forum ( more than mine too) due to his superior long term knowledge of the sport and his direct involvement in motorsports. If he had come up with a plausible argument to the contrary I would have given it far more consideration than any number of polls on the forum.

[Shadow 0]

Not surprising though, as the '97 WDC is one of the toughest in the business to pass (just ask FA).

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and i bet FA was silently thanking JV this time around

[bajo39 0]

and I dont see the point of your continuing reference to the rest of the forum, the majority of the forum etc. for example to me the opinion of FJ is worth far more than many others on the forum ( more than mine too) due to his superior long term knowledge of the sport and his direct involvement in motorsports. If he had come up with a plausible argument to the contrary I would have given it far more consideration than any number of polls on the forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who is 'FJ' and why are you valuing his opinion over Johnny Herbert's? Johnny's opinion, of course, was the same as the rest of the forum's: Karthikeyan is a wild man and needs to calm down.

[bajo39 0]

The present minardi looks a fairly drivable machine, even Doorknobs has come to grips with it pretty fast.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What exactly do you mean by this? Are you suggesting that Robert Doornbos is an inferior talent to Narain Karthikleyan? How dare you? That is outrageous and I shall poll the question tomorrow if I do not see a withdrawal of this comment.

[nojvnof1 0]

"He was still slower than Jenson all weekend...."

he was quicker all the way until quali and the race. Even in those sessions he was doing very very well.

"What's more is that his race performance was unimpressive and he was outperformed all weekend by his teammate, including in the race."

unimpressive? He took the lead at the start, held it and made a mistake free race, what more do you want? Who cares what Kimi did? You must acknowledge that through no fault of the car or anything else, Kimi spun and cost himself a probable 3rd place. JPM's job was to hold Alonso up, but that was early when Kimi had a chance to win, once it became clear he had lost too much time behind Jacques, and consequently due to an extra stop, then JPM was instructed to go full steam ahead and take the win. JPM made no mistakes and won the race, a win is a win, doesn't matter how it comes about (team orders aside). Take Klein out of your Top3 and put JPM in and I agree with the whole thing.

[Shadow 0]

What exactly do you mean by this?  Are you suggesting that Robert Doornbos is an inferior talent to Narain Karthikeyan? How dare you? That is outrageous and I shall poll the question tomorrow if I do not see a withdrawal of this comment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i think he meant that Doornbos has only raced in that Minardi for 4 races and as comes to grips with it quickly so it is a driveable machine. Nobody is comparing NK and Doornbos bajo, the question is whether the minardi is a driveable machine and according to him it is, atleast that is how i understand it

[Monty 0]

"He was still slower than Jenson all weekend...."

he was quicker all the way until quali and the race. Even in those sessions he was doing very very well.

"What's more is that his race performance was unimpressive and he was outperformed all weekend by his teammate, including in the race."

unimpressive? He took the lead at the start, held it and made a mistake free race, what more do you want? Who cares what Kimi did? You must acknowledge that through no fault of the car or anything else, Kimi spun and cost himself a probable 3rd place. JPM's job was to hold Alonso up, but that was early when Kimi had a chance to win, once it became clear he had lost too much time behind Jacques, and consequently due to an extra stop, then JPM was instructed to go full steam ahead and take the win. JPM made no mistakes and won the race, a win is a win, doesn't matter how it comes about (team orders aside). Take Klein out of your Top3 and put JPM in and I agree with the whole thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's right. JPM's job was to get ahead of Alonso and hold him, and Kimi's job was to pass a few cars in the first lap and make his way up. JPM did his part, and I wish I can say the same about Kimi, he not only failed to pass a few cars but also lost a spot to a slow sauber.

Bajo's analysis will hold no water, as he fails to give credit where it is due, and clearly lacks objectivity in this forum.

[bajo39 0]

That's right. JPM's job was to get ahead of Alonso and hold him, and Kimi's job was to pass a few cars in the first lap and make his way up. JPM did his part, and I wish I can say the same about Kimi, he not only failed to pass a few cars but also lost a spot to a slow sauber.

Bajo's analysis will hold no water, as he fails to give credit where it is due, and clearly lacks objectivity in this forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But Montoya never held ALonso at all, he sprinted off right from the start. That's the whole point!

[Monty 0]

But Montoya never held ALonso at all, he sprinted off right from the start.  That's the whole point!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2 guys were supposed to complete their respective tasks. one guy did and the other guy failed. And you blame the guy who did his job...... Getting off the line clean and passing a few cars was very vital for kimi's sucess yesterday and you want to blame JPM for Kimis mistake.

[bajo39 0]

2 guys were supposed to complete their respective tasks. one guy did and the other guy failed. And you blame the guy who did his job...... Getting off the line clean and passing a few cars was very vital for kimi's sucess yesterday and you want to blame JPM for Kimis mistake.

   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monty, I'm not blaming Montoya for Kimi's failure to win the race. I blame Montoya for not executing the strategy in the first stint, before it became clear that it was futile.

[Monty 0]

Monty, I'm not blaming Montoya for Kimi's failure to win the race.

[bajo39 0]

The strategy was JPM to get ahead of Alonso and hold him. He did exactly that, the difference between these 2 during the first stint was 2.5 sec's. (The difference between him and Kimi was 25 seconds at that time) This was Mclarens stategy, so stop creating your own strategy to make your point right.  The stratgey for Kimi was to pass a few cars in the first stint and catch up with the front runners. This is confirmed by Martin Whitmarsh, surely you don't think you are better than Martin.   (Mclaren's Strategy) That is where he failed to deliver. So stop saying JPM didn't execute the strategy, he did exactly what the team wanted him to do.

Stop acting like a sore loser. JPM drove a brilliant race, and if you want to act like a 5 year old and refuse accept JPM's victory,  then it is your choice. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Montoya in his post-race comments admitted to pushing in the first stint and the gap back to Alonso was not as small as it should have been (and not as small as you suggest). If he wanted to hold Alonso up, he should have slowed down at least another second per lap and allowed a train to form behind Alonso bringing him under threat.

Montoya otherwise drove a good race and got the job done - I'll give him that.

[bajo39 0]

You see Monty, not even Montoya's own comments support your theory that he was executing the sensible strategy of holding Alonso back in the first stint:

"It is great to win here in Monza especially after such an exciting race. I had a good clean start getting off the line and down to the first corner without any problems. I pushed really hard in the opening stages to build a gap between me and Fernando Alonso but after a couple of laps I really started to suffer from understeer and the car became very difficult to drive. "

[Monty 0]

Montoya in his post-race comments admitted to pushing in the first stint and the gap back to Alonso was not as small as it should have been (and not as small as you suggest).  If he wanted to hold Alonso up, he should have slowed down at least another second per lap and allowed a train to form behind Alonso bringing him under threat.

Montoya otherwise drove a good race and got the job done - I'll give him that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After squabling for 2 days. How come you haven't said a word about Kimi losing his spot to JV at the start. Don't give me the "he was heavy" bulls##t. The mclarens are far far superior to a Sauber, and the speed of the Mclarens will obviously compensate for the extra load he was carrying.

BTW, this is the second time he lost a spot at the start of the race. Last time it was to Fisi, and regained it only after Fisi making a mistake.

[Monty 0]

You see Monty, not even Montoya's own comments support your theory that he was executing the sensible strategy of holding Alonso back in the first stint:

"It is great to win here in Monza especially after such an exciting race. I had a good clean start getting off the line and down to the first corner without any problems. I pushed really hard in the opening stages to build a gap between me and Fernando Alonso but after a couple of laps I really started to suffer from understeer and the car became very difficult to drive. "

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The moment Kimi lost his spot and when he had no way to claw his way back, he had to do what is best for the team. That is exactly what he did. This is the first time, I come across a person like you who is so biased that you can't give credit to a guy who won the race.