26 replies to this topic

[HandyNZL]

Tin Tops and Open Wheelers....everyone has a preference....to me, Open Wheelers are true race cars.  Essentially they are an engine, four wheels, and a driver strapped on to them with a 6-point harness.  Tin Tops are cars that go to the supermarket, but on the plus column, offer signwriters more space for, well, sign writing.

Since we got rained out at the track today, I'm sitting watching the Tier 1 racing from down in the South Island at Levels Raceway (guess what, it's a pretty flat track), and all the boffins can put on is the V8's, V8 utes, and the Suzuki Swifts in three hours of footage....and no open wheel Formula Toyota's...grrrr grrr grrr.  I blame the Australians and their Ford v Holden bogans....

The only Tin Top's I've really ever had an affinity to were the old OSCA/Transzam cars which were 800Hp+ fire breathing, flared bigger than seventies pants, growling, earth shaking, wet dreams of some race car engineer.  And CanAm's too...but they were pretty much open tops to start with, plus those cars have never been used to trundle on down to get the weekly shopping.

Don't get me started on the BMW E30 series that support our race meets....

Obviously, apart from Eric that is, we all like Formula One...but if you had to choose, do you prefer Open Wheelers or Tinnies? And why?

Lets get a motorsport thread going...seems like a good idea...

[Caesar]

because they are boring?!

Edited by Caesar, 23 January 2011 - 03:32 AM.

[Rainmaster]

Open wheelers all the way. Used to watch some tin-top stuff (DTM, WTCC, et al) but despite some great racing, I just never found it as interesting as F1. I think it's due to wanting to get the best entertainment value for my free time (and no that doesn't just mean overtaking). When I was younger I had more time to watch lots of different series' but now it's different. In the time I have got I'd rather watch what I perceive as the best drivers in the fastest cars. I know the idea that F1 drivers are the best racers is contentious, but it's just the feeling I get, and that's why I find it more appealing to watch, I think. Plus it's more complex than the other categories and more widely televised anyway, which obviously helps.

I would probably watch some other categories too if I could be bothered to make time for them, but I prefer to just follow F1 closely rather than spread my interest thin. I don't want my motor-sport to become like football: over saturated.

[Port-A-Loo]

I watch everything, really, so it's a tough call.  I just love it all and I'd hate to have to choose.  I watch one race per weekend normally, and I rotate through a host of series to do that.  I've attended races of all types, too.  It just wouldn't be right to watch just NASCAR, or just F1, or just INDYCAR, or just the local guys at the short track.  They're all exciting in different ways.

Full-fendered cars are awesome.


And so are open-wheelers (watch the whole thing.  Its just gets better and better).


But I'll vote for the cabs just since no one else will, but in reality, I could never watch Daytona and not balance it with Montréal, or Indianapolis with Knockhill, or Williams Grove with Sebring.

[HandyNZL]

The Professor, on 23 January 2011 - 02:37 AM, said:

Open wheelers all the way. Used to watch some tin-top stuff (DTM, WTCC, et al) but despite some great racing, I just never found it as interesting as F1. I think it's due to wanting to get the best entertainment value for my free time (and no that doesn't just mean overtaking). When I was younger I had more time to watch lots of different series' but now it's different. In the time I have got I'd rather watch what I perceive as the best drivers in the fastest cars. I know the idea that F1 drivers are the best racers is contentious, but it's just the feeling I get, and that's why I find it more appealing to watch, I think. Plus it's more complex than the other categories and more widely televised anyway, which obviously helps.

I would probably watch some other categories too if I could be bothered to make time for them, but I prefer to just follow F1 closely rather than spread my interest thin. I don't want my motor-sport to become like football: over saturated.

Was meaning more in general...not F1 vs NASCAR (or other) literally...

[HandyNZL]

Port-A-Loo, on 23 January 2011 - 03:02 AM, said:

I watch everything, really, so it's a tough call.  I just love it all and I'd hate to have to choose.  I watch one race per weekend normally, and I rotate through a host of series to do that.  I've attended races of all types, too.  It just wouldn't be right to watch just NASCAR, or just F1, or just INDYCAR, or just the local guys at the short track.  They're all exciting in different ways.

Full-fendered cars are awesome.


And so are open-wheelers (watch the whole thing.  Its just gets better and better).


But I'll vote for the cabs just since no one else will, but in reality, I could never watch Daytona and not balance it with Montréal, or Indianapolis with Knockhill, or Williams Grove with Sebring.

Ahhhh...when CART was a realistic alternative to Formula 1.  Love the comments on the Youtube page

If only IRL can get back to that sort of action....CART was guys going out and racing hard and racing to win and racing to pass and be damned the consequence of a little touch...even back then F1 was a procession after the first few laps....which got even worse when Hakkinen and Coulthard had their fantastic seasons in 98 and 99....which was when CART seemed miles above F1 as a spectacle of motorsport and motorsport competition.

Then the US Open Wheelers had a gift in Michael being so dominant (ie gets boring when you know who the winner is going to be), but they shot themselves in the foot.....

[Caesar]

Port-A-Loo, on 23 January 2011 - 03:02 AM, said:

I watch everything, really, so it's a tough call.  I just love it all and I'd hate to have to choose.  I watch one race per weekend normally, and I rotate through a host of series to do that.  I've attended races of all types, too.  It just wouldn't be right to watch just NASCAR, or just F1, or just INDYCAR, or just the local guys at the short track.  They're all exciting in different ways.

Full-fendered cars are awesome.


And so are open-wheelers (watch the whole thing.  Its just gets better and better).


But I'll vote for the cabs just since no one else will, but in reality, I could never watch Daytona and not balance it with Montréal, or Indianapolis with Knockhill, or Williams Grove with Sebring.

if you are still interested in buying that Yugo...
yugo cup start
yugo onboard

[Caesar]

my message gone wrong

Edited by Caesar, 23 January 2011 - 04:22 AM.

[JHS]

BTCC races are generally much more exciting than F1 races. Well, any form of touring car racing is really. There's always a lot more overtaking and the cars are generally a lot closer. The grids are always incredibly close and generally there isn't any controversy when cars rub paint unlike in F1. Slightest error in F1, you get a penalty. Generally in touring cars they let things go a lot more, so drivers are more encouraged to have a go.

I probably follow Formula One the most and for the longest period of time, but for sheer excitement and closesness, it doesn't get close to touring cars. The 2009 BTCC finale was without doubt one of the best races I've ever seen.

[Insider]

It's far too slow for me.

[HandyNZL]

JHS, on 23 January 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

BTCC races are generally much more exciting than F1 races. Well, any form of touring car racing is really. There's always a lot more overtaking and the cars are generally a lot closer. The grids are always incredibly close and generally there isn't any controversy when cars rub paint unlike in F1. Slightest error in F1, you get a penalty. Generally in touring cars they let things go a lot more, so drivers are more encouraged to have a go.

I probably follow Formula One the most and for the longest period of time, but for sheer excitement and closesness, it doesn't get close to touring cars. The 2009 BTCC finale was without doubt one of the best races I've ever seen.

I'll see your point, and raise one of my own...

I think that the reasons you like tinnies is one of the reasons I am not so enamored with them...rubbing is racing is just an ugly way of racing - overtakes aren't so much set up, more they are forced.  Open Wheelrs you can not drive that way unless you have a death wish for yourself and those around you on the track, which is exactly why they do get penalised for such racing.  The fact that the driver is pretty safe inside his tin cocoon is why they are allowed to rub...little taps will not result in locked wheels or cars being jettisoned over one another, a la Webber or Ralf Schumacher.

I admire well worked overtakes, and I gotta thank Bill Stone for such a beautiful one yesterday at Hampton Downs.....it was lovely lovely.  Clean, and efficient.  The little Lotus of his must be a dream to drive.

[monza gorilla]

In the late 60s and early 70s I really enjoyed tin top racing in the UK. The racing was much cleaner than in BTCC and it's ilk. I've posted these links before, but it seems a good idea to do it again. Ah, smell the nostalgia. And the Castrol R. I think it was the variety as much as the pure racing.
But, open wheelers are the business. I did follow CART/Champ Car until it disappeared up it's own arse.

[Insider]

monza gorilla, on 23 January 2011 - 01:11 PM, said:

In the late 60s and early 70s I really enjoyed tin top racing in the UK. The racing was much cleaner than in BTCC and it's ilk. I've posted these links before, but it seems a good idea to do it again. Ah, smell the nostalgia. And the Castrol R. I think it was the variety as much as the pure racing.
But, open wheelers are the business. I did follow CART/Champ Car until it disappeared up it's own arse.

I would have to admit I enjoyed watching Mansell in a tinny!

[JHS]

HandyNZL, on 23 January 2011 - 12:39 PM, said:

I'll see your point, and raise one of my own...

I think that the reasons you like tinnies is one of the reasons I am not so enamored with them...rubbing is racing is just an ugly way of racing - overtakes aren't so much set up, more they are forced.  Open Wheelrs you can not drive that way unless you have a death wish for yourself and those around you on the track, which is exactly why they do get penalised for such racing.  The fact that the driver is pretty safe inside his tin cocoon is why they are allowed to rub...little taps will not result in locked wheels or cars being jettisoned over one another, a la Webber or Ralf Schumacher.

I admire well worked overtakes, and I gotta thank Bill Stone for such a beautiful one yesterday at Hampton Downs.....it was lovely lovely.  Clean, and efficient.  The little Lotus of his must be a dream to drive.

I'm probably at risk of sounding like DOF here, but here goes.

So your argument is they can't go wheel to wheel due to safety? How come in the past then, cars were allowed to do it? Was it Mansell and Senna wheel-to-wheel at Barcelona, sparks coming from there cars? I think there are many incidents that you could look at when Formula One was much more dangerous that would probably have resulted in a penalty of some kind today.

What my point is is that guys were allowed to go wheel-to-wheel in the old days when there was clearly not as much safety as there is today. Now the cars are super safe, drivers have massive accidents yet walk away with no injuries. I just find it slightly ironic that the cars have got safer, but there is the argument they can't go wheel to wheel because it's too dangerous.

Look at Indycar on ovals. Much higher average speed than F1, and the risk is very high. Just look at Kenny Brack's accident from a few years ago. But they are still allowed to run wheel-to-wheel without anyone getting a penalty.

As for your bit about the overtaking being "forced"...sure, maybe sometimes it is. But if that does happen it still produces some excellent moments:

[JHS]

This is the race I was on about - BTCC at its very best. Other parts can be located from youtube:

[HandyNZL]

I'm not saying they don't go wheel to wheel and touch, just an open wheel driver knows he can not always get away with that sort of thing - his chance of crashing is in the 90-percentile.  Tinnies on the other hand are in the 10-percentile as they are more than likely going to just bounce, wiggle, and carry on, thus "rubbing is racing".

That's not to say that in open wheelers someone won't touch to force a pass, nor in tinnies someone won't setup the other guy three corners ahead and slip through with out a hint of rubbing.  They are two completely different forms of racing, and I prefer open wheelers (1) because they are real race cars, not just a race-spec of some car off the show room floor, and (2) they produce cleaner, more elegant driving on the whole.

But it's ok if you like BTCC...won't hold it against you, but Andre might....

[HandyNZL]

I'm not saying they don't go wheel to wheel and touch, just an open wheel driver knows he can not always get away with that sort of thing - his chance of crashing is in the 90-percentile.  Tinnies on the other hand are in the 10-percentile as they are more than likely going to just bounce, wiggle, and carry on, thus "rubbing is racing".

That's not to say that in open wheelers someone won't touch to force a pass, nor in tinnies someone won't setup the other guy three corners ahead and slip through with out a hint of rubbing.  They are two completely different forms of racing, and I prefer open wheelers (1) because they are real race cars, not just a race-spec of some car off the show room floor, and (2) they produce cleaner, more elegant driving on the whole.

But it's ok if you like BTCC...won't hold it against you, but Andre might....

[HandyNZL]

Yay-us....double post

[JHS]

HandyNZL, on 23 January 2011 - 06:59 PM, said:

I'm not saying they don't go wheel to wheel and touch, just an open wheel driver knows he can not always get away with that sort of thing - his chance of crashing is in the 90-percentile.  Tinnies on the other hand are in the 10-percentile as they are more than likely going to just bounce, wiggle, and carry on, thus "rubbing is racing".

That's not to say that in open wheelers someone won't touch to force a pass, nor in tinnies someone won't setup the other guy three corners ahead and slip through with out a hint of rubbing.  They are two completely different forms of racing, and I prefer open wheelers (1) because they are real race cars, not just a race-spec of some car off the show room floor, and (2) they produce cleaner, more elegant driving on the whole.

But it's ok if you like BTCC...won't hold it against you, but Andre might....

Yes, and in my view that helps increase the excitement. Put it this way, at least touring cars can get close to each other. What with all the aero rubbish on single seaters that occurance happens less frequently than it does in touring cars.

They are real race cars though. Sure, the skin might look similar to road going cars, but underneath they are very different indeed. Take V8 Supercars or DTM for example. Clearly the Audi A4s or Mercedes C Class are very, very different from road cars. DTM cars are effectively  single seaters with road car bodies on them.

I think that they look like the road going equivalents is actually something I like. Maybe I'm strange, but I've always found it pretty cool when a driver I support is out there swapping paint, racing in a car that my dad also owns. Also, it adds diversity to the grids. In touring cars, GTs, whatever, you get a whole bunch of different shapes and car layouts. Look at GT3. There's loads of manufacturers present on the grid, and even if you know nothing about racing, it is easy to tell a Ferrari apart from a BMW or whatever.

However, I bet if you painted all the F1 cars white, even the most die-hard fan would struggle to tell which one is which. It is a frequent complaint that we hear in F1 these days from the casual fans, "they all look the same". Evidently that is not the case in tinnies.

Edited by JHS, 23 January 2011 - 07:22 PM.

[Port-A-Loo]

Just combine open wheel and tin tops.  (Watch it.  Give it a chance.  I've given your silly F1 stuff one ).



That's the real racing.  Some of them do it with elegance, some of them do it with a bit of force.  A clinic in commentary in that video, too.  Mike Joy is the man (he called a few F1 races in his day).

[jackgarrett]

I find tin tops slow and thus more boring. I remember watching the a V8 during qualy that i had taped and I held down play and thats 1.3 times speed and it was really moving. I timed it and it was still slower than a F1 car.

I am even loosing interest in F1 beucase its not as fast as it used to be like in 2004.

[JHS]

Speed isn't everything.

Plus, you forgot, the lap record for Melbourne was set last year. Hardly "slowing down".

Edited by JHS, 24 January 2011 - 07:58 AM.

[jackgarrett]

i dont know where you got that from?

[monza gorilla]

Nor do I. Schumacher 2004 is still the lap record as far as I know.

[jackgarrett]

the good thing about these cars is that they look like they are going fast because they are so small and weigh 450kgs.

[Argento Reloaded]

Open wheelers because the driver never hit on purpose -except MSC- as on BTCC or the likes

[JHS]

jackgarrett, on 24 January 2011 - 11:06 AM, said:

i dont know where you got that from?

From the race. I advise you to read the 2010 Formula One yearbook to find out more.