139 replies to this topic

[Massa]

The Vettel penalty made no sense, but it also made no difference so I guess it's not worth doing that one to death.

Pérez had a great, great strategy.  He's inconsistent, but he's had a few races this year where he made great tire strategies work.  I can't really gauge where he is as a driver, though.  Every time he's been extremely fast, he's had the freshest/fastest tires.  That doesn't mean he isn't good, and of course being able to make these strategies work is a huge asset, but I can't really get a handle on how good he'd be in a good car on the same strategy as everyone else.

Speaking of same strategy as everyone else, I won't miss one-stoppers.  Let's get some distance between the two compounds, please, and some different strategies.  It sets up a better finish...

Other than that, not much stood out this morning.  Felt like more commercial breaks than normal here, and certainly poorly-timed ones (we missed just about everything that happened and had to see it all in replay).  Definitely a "big picture" championship race more so than anything individually in the race, for me at least.

[Quiet One]

Lovely battles betwen some big names (finally!)

Alonso DoD with a supreme recovery, right? Wrong.

Damn you Perez, you put my boy to shame!

[Quiet One]

Fun Fact: The podium comprised the 3 drivers Grosjean almost sent to an early grave at Spa.

[LabradoRacer]

Massa, on 09 September 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

The Vettel penalty made no sense, but it also made no difference so I guess it's not worth doing that one to death.

Pérez had a great, great strategy.  He's inconsistent, but he's had a few races this year where he made great tire strategies work.  I can't really gauge where he is as a driver, though.  Every time he's been extremely fast, he's had the freshest/fastest tires.  That doesn't mean he isn't good, and of course being able to make these strategies work is a huge asset, but I can't really get a handle on how good he'd be in a good car on the same strategy as everyone else.

Speaking of same strategy as everyone else, I won't miss one-stoppers.  Let's get some distance between the two compounds, please, and some different strategies.  It sets up a better finish...

Other than that, not much stood out this morning.  Felt like more commercial breaks than normal here, and certainly poorly-timed ones (we missed just about everything that happened and had to see it all in replay).  Definitely a "big picture" championship race more so than anything individually in the race, for me at least

Perez does owe a bit of his pace to his car's incredibly anorexic appetite for tyres. However, he's fast, no denying that.

If you see the race online, you will have a commercial-free race.

[LabradoRacer]

Quiet One, on 09 September 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Fun Fact: The podium comprised the 3 drivers Grosjean almost sent to an early grave at Spa.

[LabradoRacer]

Quiet One, on 09 September 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Lovely battles betwen some big names (finally!)

Yeah, this race was hugely entertaining.

[Peeweev]

I believe the WDC will be decided by how many points can alonso take at each race and can hammilton keep going? if hammi can he will win WDC if alonso can beat him a few times mayb not

[Ikyrotz]

I have to say, I don't quite get Vettel's penalty. First of all, it was exactly the same situation as Vettel-Alonso last year at Monza, only roles reversed. No penalties then. Secondly, Di Resta pushed Senna on the grass as well, not leaving a cars width to him, and no penalties for that either. Not that it mattered in the end, but I don't quite understand these decisions.

[Massa]

Both the SPEED commentators and the posters here talking about "great battles" and an "entertaining race" and I didn't see a damn second of anything like that at all.  I wish I had the time to watch it again because I'm pretty sure I missed literally everything that happened.  Between commercial breaks and (mostly) my own stupidity, I think I had a completely different race experience from everyone else.  I saw Massa try to pass Hamilton at the start...I saw Alonso and Vettel's thing...I saw the tail-end of Rosberg doing something...Pérez blew by some guys...can't recall anything else happening.  I know I'm usually way behind everyone else at noticing things but this is a poor performance even for me.

[Massa]

Peeweev, on 09 September 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I believe the WDC will be decided by how many points can alonso take at each race and can hammilton keep going? if hammi can he will win WDC if alonso can beat him a few times mayb not

The key for Alonso losing the title is the same guy winning/on the podium ahead of him every single week.  McLaren's car, right now, is capable of doing that.  I think Hamilton's the biggest threat in that regard, even though he only has one point on Räikkönen and another on Vettel.  The Red Bull isn't as fast as it used to be, and the Lotus hasn't been a winning car yet.

But it can all change...and if it does all change, that's how I expect Alonso to win the title.  If McLaren stay like this for the rest of the year, different story.

Ikyrotz, on 09 September 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

I have to say, I don't quite get Vettel's penalty. First of all, it was exactly the same situation as Vettel-Alonso last year at Monza, only roles reversed. No penalties then. Secondly, Di Resta pushed Senna on the grass as well, not leaving a cars width to him, and no penalties for that either. Not that it mattered in the end, but I don't quite understand these decisions.

I couldn't see anything Vettel did to force Alonso on the grass.  It looked more like Alonso went somewhere brave and didn't have the room to be there.  I saw no clear move from Vettel.  Not that what I see should ever be trusted.

[Ikyrotz]

Massa, on 09 September 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Both the SPEED commentators and the posters here talking about "great battles" and an "entertaining race" and I didn't see a damn second of anything like that at all.  I wish I had the time to watch it again because I'm pretty sure I missed literally everything that happened.  Between commercial breaks and (mostly) my own stupidity, I think I had a completely different race experience from everyone else.  I saw Massa try to pass Hamilton at the start...I saw Alonso and Vettel's thing...I saw the tail-end of Rosberg doing something...Pérez blew by some guys...can't recall anything else happening.  I know I'm usually way behind everyone else at noticing things but this is a poor performance even for me.

I have to agree with you. Commercial breaks on Speed were at the most inconvenient times. I was following the live timing and almost screamed to the tv "Don't go to commercials now, can't you see there is a great battle coming right now!"

After enjoying commercial free F1 broadcasting for years, it is annoying to miss half the race to advertisements. On the plus side, at least I can understand the commentary now .

[AleHop]

That penalty for Vettel was a conspiracy for Alonso to win the WDC. All, all all aaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllll the stewards are always wrong because that was Vettel, the nice boy. They should have penalised Maldonado because he's to blame for Vettel pushing Alonso off the track.

A conspiracy, a conspiracy, A CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!

I TELL YA I TELL YA I TELL YA!!!!!

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRFFFGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHFFFFUCCCKKKK!!!!!

[Quiet One]

Massa, on 09 September 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

I couldn't see anything Vettel did to force Alonso on the grass.  It looked more like Alonso went somewhere brave and didn't have the room to be there.  I saw no clear move from Vettel.  Not that what I see should ever be trusted.

Alonso was overtly optimistic, but Vettel did push Alonso on the grass just like last year Alonso did to Vettel (only that this time Vettel left even less space, tbh).

So what was different between Monza 2011 and Monza 2012? The year. A year has passed with many of these incidents and clarifications about these things. I still think it's a racing incident, but drivers know that these kind of manoeuvres are not the  favorite of the stewards.

I wouldn't gave penalised Vettel, but I am not surprised that they did.

[JHS18]

Very enjoyable race for me, despite Hamilton winning ().

As usual at Monza, passes by very quickly. Think they need to make that race about five or ten laps longer.

Driver of the day, definitely Perez and Alonso. Perez surely close to a victory now after his third podium this year. Alonso supreme - he's going to win it this year. I can tell. He just doesn't make any mistakes (of his own making anyway) and he's just flawless in wheel-to-wheel racing. Knows when it is worth risking and when to back off, which is not something all of them do know how to do.

Questionable penalty with Vettel, but even as a fan of his, I can't disagree with it too much. Alonso did a good job not to lose the car at such high speed. Alonso left Vettel more room last year.

Disaster for RBR. They really need to sort out that f*cking Renault sh*t alternator. Twice that has happened this weekend, and twice it has happened in race conditions this year. Simply unacceptable. You can't win a third title with that unreliability.

Good job by Massa, nice to see him coming close to taking the lead at the start, but think his fate has been probably sealed by Perez's driver today at Monza, of all places.

Already looking forward to Singapore. Feel that Red Bull may be a lot better there than they have been at Monza and Spa.

[Peeweev]

Quiet One, on 09 September 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Alonso was overtly optimistic, but Vettel did push Alonso on the grass just like last year Alonso did to Vettel (only that this time Vettel left even less space, tbh).

So what was different between Monza 2011 and Monza 2012? The year. A year has passed with many of these incidents and clarifications about these things. I still think it's a racing incident, but drivers know that these kind of manoeuvres are not the  favorite of the stewards.

I wouldn't gave penalised Vettel, but I am not surprised that they did.

I have to agree! (not that i dislike agreeing you understand ) But the move in itself didnt seem too bad, just that there has been a big clamp down on those moves the past 2 races understandably but it would be nice for the stewards to have a set of rules that stayed the same the whole year and it could be more consitant.

On the plus side the stewards obviously had snack and drinks facilities in the room today so were happy to do something during the race!

[Quiet One]

BTW, has anyone else seen Lewis after the race, grabbing his helmet and signaling some red color on his helmet?

More mind games? Lewis to Ferrari? "Hey, Kimi! Now I can tell a red light from a green one!"?  What the hell he meant?

[AleHop]

JHS18, on 09 September 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Questionable penalty with Vettel, but even as a fan of his, I can't disagree with it too much. Alonso did a good job not to lose the car at such high speed. Alonso left Vettel more room last year.

Absolutely. But it seems people watch races with eyes closed. Oh, well...



Now people please make me happy and remind me what they said in Malaysia when Perez didn't pass Alonso. Booohooo why Ferrari didn't use their powers this time, it worked so well in Malaysia. Oh, well...

[Quiet One]

Quiet One, on 09 September 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

BTW, has anyone else seen Lewis after the race, grabbing his helmet and signaling some red color on his helmet?

More mind games? Lewis to Ferrari? "Hey, Kimi! Now I can tell a red light from a green one!"?  What the hell he meant?

More to this: I missed the radio transmission after the race but (apparently) Lewis said something like "thank you guys for the opportunity...", WWihtmarsh was very emotional and Ron Dennis very serious. Could this have been the first lines of Hamilton's farewell song from McLaren?

And again, what's with the red color????

"This one's for you, Redskin fans in America!"???

"Tovarich, my communist mo fos!"?

"...and this is were Massa got hit..."?

"Better red than Fred (Alonso)!"?

"Santander, you owe me a paycheck"?
Wost of all, I cannot find any comments about the gesture. Did it actually happen at all?

What? What? What???????

Edited by Quiet One, 09 September 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[PaulCrossling]

Quiet One, on 09 September 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

So what was different between Monza 2011 and Monza 2012?

The difference is the rule that when you have another driver alongside you, you have to leave a cars width between yourself and the edge of the track, when Alono pushed Vettel last year that rule was not in place, when Vettel (alegedaly) pushed Alonso this year they rule was....not that I agree with either the rule or the penalty, i is just one step away from IndyCars 'no blocking' rule, which I hope we dont see introduced, F1 has already stolen enough bad rules from IndyCar

[Quiet One]

PaulCrossling, on 09 September 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

The difference is the rule that when you have another driver alongside you, you have to leave a cars width between yourself and the edge of the track, when Alono pushed Vettel last year that rule was not in place, when Vettel (alegedaly) pushed Alonso this year they rule was....not that I agree with either the rule or the penalty, i is just one step away from IndyCars 'no blocking' rule, which I hope we dont see introduced, F1 has already stolen enough bad rules from IndyCar

My point, exactly. After all, Romain got a one-race ban and all he did was precisely squeeze another car (almost taking Nando's head off was a consequence of that, but by then Romain was merely a privileged spectator of what was happening).

From that point of view Seb was actually lucky to get away with just a drive-through

[PaulCrossling]

While comparing what Vettel did to what Grosjean did is fair, it was in completly different circumstances.

The problem with Grosjean (and Maldonardo) is that they do this sort of thing all the time. I have just read that Grosjean has been involved in 7 first lap incidents in 12 races this year and while I dont think he has been banned for what happened in Belgium (more what COULD have happened) he defiantly needs to learn the old saying that you cant win a race at the first corner, but you can lose it.

This was a first offence for Vettel, if he contiunes to be involved in incidents that could cause injury then I am sure that a ban will follow for him too.

[PaulCrossling]

While comparing what Vettel did to what Grosjean did is fair, it was in completly different circumstances.

The problem with Grosjean (and Maldonardo) is that they do this sort of thing all the time. I have just read that Grosjean has been involved in 7 first lap incidents in 12 races this year and while I dont think he has been banned for what happened in Belgium (more what COULD have happened) he defiantly needs to learn the old saying that you cant win a race at the first corner, but you can lose it.

This was a first offence for Vettel, if he contiunes to be involved in incidents that could cause injury then I am sure that a ban will follow for him too.

[Quiet One]

PaulCrossling, on 09 September 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

While comparing what Vettel did to what Grosjean did is fair, it was in completly different circumstances.

The problem with Grosjean (and Maldonardo) is that they do this sort of thing all the time. I have just read that Grosjean has been involved in 7 first lap incidents in 12 races this year and while I dont think he has been banned for what happened in Belgium (more what COULD have happened) he defiantly needs to learn the old saying that you cant win a race at the first corner, but you can lose it.

This was a first offence for Vettel, if he contiunes to be involved in incidents that could cause injury then I am sure that a ban will follow for him too.

...but then again, how many warnings, increasing penalties and such did Grosjean get? He was cleared from all of them and suddenly WHAM! One race ban.

Vettel has done this before as well...

(I am just saying this half jokingly, by the way. I am aware that circumstances are different and, like I said before, I don't even think this was more than a racing incident. I just don't think that penalties awarded based on the consequences more than on the actions lead to more consistency)

[Ikyrotz]

PaulCrossling, on 09 September 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

The difference is the rule that when you have another driver alongside you, you have to leave a cars width between yourself and the edge of the track,

I still wonder why Di Resta was not penalized for pushing Senna, on the same grounds.

[PaulCrossling]

Senna is not driving a Ferrari and Di Resta is not in a championship battle with a Ferrari

[Peeweev]

Ikyrotz, on 09 September 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I still wonder why Di Resta was not penalized for pushing Senna, on the same grounds.

senna was not along side Paul untill after he had made his move Senna just breaked later

[AleHop]

Quote

Q: You were given a drive-through penalty for forcing Ferrari’s Fernando Alonso off the track. Was it justified? Last year you and Alonso tangled too…
S Vettel: I obviously should have complained last year, just as he did today. For sure I was frustrated as it cost me dearly but now it is water under the bridge. As I said I didn’t complain last year and I won’t in the future. That’s not my way of going about things.

OMG CUCUMBER OMG

[Caesar]

it wasn't same case as it was in 2011.
http://videa.hu/vide...32Z4WcZUkA8MYwP

Attached Files

•  2011vs2012.jpg   156.85K   13 downloads
•  49n98.jpg   56.91K   11 downloads

Edited by Caesar, 09 September 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[Ikyrotz]

Caesar, on 09 September 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

it wasn't same case as it was in 2011.
http://videa.hu/vide...32Z4WcZUkA8MYwP

Alonso did leave a bit more room, however, there wasn't a full cars width then either (as you can see from top left image), though I don't know if such a rule was in effect a year ago. In any case, in my opinion, as far as driver respect is concerned, both incidents were just as bad (including the case "not bad at all").

Edited by Ikyrotz, 09 September 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[The Shadow]

Not much changed when it came to higher WDC points tally since Hungary. In Spa Button, Vettel scored points while Alonso, Hamilton DNF.

Here Alonso and Hamilton scored as much as they could realistically expect while Vettel, Button and Webber scored nothing at all.

Alonso with a 37 point lead over Hamilton. 4 races like this and the lead would change hands. Providing McLaren maintains its advantage for the remaining roundsre. It isn't a realistic expectation given the competitive level of the opposing teams with Viry-Chatillion pedigree. Thus this would essentially be Alonso's championship to lose, given the level he usually operates at.

For purely selfish reasons I want to see things remain in the current pecking order. That way we would end the championship with a decisive final round at the very least. (Also hope Lotus would do better to mix things up.. though I realise that today's results aren't representative of their competitiveness)