Monza

[AleHop 0]

I trust the stewards' data more than my own eyes, but man...I still can't see it.  And I can't even blame advertising breaks for my missing it!

Oh, I realised Vettel deserved a penalty as soon as I heard Antonio Lobato (Spanish commentator) shouting.

I then heard Lobato before the podium ceremony saying something about an Italian flag on HAM's helmet but I didn't see it. Not that I believed him for a moment on that.

[Rainmaster 7]

Never mind all that. KUBICA IS CONTESTING A MINOR RALLY IN ITALY THESE WEEKEND!! based on his interview with an Italian reporter he targets return to F1 for 2014. However, he denied it during his interview with a Polish news program. He stated that he will be racing in 2013, but he doesn't know where. He will also take part in a bigger rally next weekend. All of this is a part of his rehabilitation process. he admitted his hand is not 100% and will likely never be fully functional, but he is working now to compensate for it. The goal of racing now is to "get his body and his head to remember what he did while racing for the last 20 years". Sounds like he is trying to get back to F1 via rallying.

I'll keep you posted!!! And yes, the pic below is from yesterday!

Heard a rumour but glad to discover it's true.

Very enjoyable race for me, despite Hamilton winning ().

As usual at Monza, passes by very quickly. Think they need to make that race about five or ten laps longer.

Driver of the day, definitely Perez and Alonso. Perez surely close to a victory now after his third podium this year. Alonso supreme - he's going to win it this year. I can tell. He just doesn't make any mistakes (of his own making anyway) and he's just flawless in wheel-to-wheel racing. Knows when it is worth risking and when to back off, which is not something all of them do know how to do.

Questionable penalty with Vettel, but even as a fan of his, I can't disagree with it too much. Alonso did a good job not to lose the car at such high speed. Alonso left Vettel more room last year.

Disaster for RBR. They really need to sort out that f*cking Renault sh*t alternator. Twice that has happened this weekend, and twice it has happened in race conditions this year. Simply unacceptable. You can't win a third title with that unreliability.

Good job by Massa, nice to see him coming close to taking the lead at the start, but think his fate has been probably sealed by Perez's driver today at Monza, of all places.

Already looking forward to Singapore. Feel that Red Bull may be a lot better there than they have been at Monza and Spa.

This from the guy who said Raikkonen on 6 podiums had no chance of a win? Most annoying thing is probably neither of them will win one.

Absolutely. But it seems people watch races with eyes closed. Oh, well...

Now people please make me happy and remind me what they said in Malaysia when Perez didn't pass Alonso. Booohooo why Ferrari didn't use their powers this time, it worked so well in Malaysia. Oh, well...

I remember about 1 person saying that and half the forum shooting it down immediately? There are a lot of idiots in the world, no need to create imaginary ones.

I still wonder why Di Resta was not penalized for pushing Senna, on the same grounds.

Alonso did leave a bit more room, however, there wasn't a full cars width then either (as you can see from top left image), though I don't know if such a rule was in effect a year ago. In any case, in my opinion, as far as driver respect is concerned, both incidents were just as bad (including the case "not bad at all").

Indeed.

My opinion on the Alo/Vettel incident is probably hopelessly nuanced to communicate (and quite possibly wrong, for lack of onboard replays of both incidents). It looked to me like Alonso pulled out slightly later than Vettel did last year, and that is an important difference when you're on the outside of such a fast curve. I don't know if the pass was really "on", is what I mean. To me, it seemed like Vettel being slow in a straight line (I'm assuming he was, haven't checked speed traps so I will stand corrected on that point) and Ferrari being really fast (see previous brackets) caused Alonso to pull out quite late and suddenly. It almost looked like he was caught out by the slipstream to me. That's what it looked like.

It just seemed like, as soon as Alonso pulled out, he was off the track. I'm not saying Vettel didn't know he was there (he checks his mirrors), but I think Alonso had so much speed he had to drive into a closing racing door and by the time he got there, he found it was shut, with Vettel never actually moving over when Alonso was alongside him. Last year, it was more like Vettel pulled out into a gap, was alongside and squeezed a bit, and then ended up on the grass but crucially got by. Could be wrong.

In any case the differences between the incidents don't matter too much, because like everyone said, this penalty is more the result of a culture change than anything else. Then again, something tells me that with a similar culture change happening before Monza last year, we wouldn't have seen a penalty for Alonso. Inconsistent stewards do not provide such faith

Anyway, the culture change is welcome, this penalty for what seemed like a racing incident, not so much (also see Senna v Di Resta as above).

[Rainmaster 7]

Other than all of that nonsense, very entertaining race! It feels like after every other race we say "Alonso has a battle on his hands to keep his lead" and every other race Alonso extends his lead. If being fast is the most important quality of a great racing driver then being intelligent is second, and Alonso is so intelligent and sees the race so clearly, it's a pleasure to watch for me. Not battling Perez is just another example of that. Mclaren seem like the fastest package but can Lewis be consistent enough to string together race wins? An on form Lewis in a fast Mclaren versus a masterful Alonso in a slower Ferrari is an exciting prospect, if that's what this championship is ultimately going to transpose into.

As for Perez, Dod of course Although I sort of share Eric's doubts as to whether he's as good as he sometimes seems, or is that car just not as bad as we expect it to be? I get the feeling he probably is/will be a very strong driver in the future, because I think he has at least plenty of those two important qualities, intelligence and speed. He just needs to be more consistent: the usual rookie problem.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Game over for Lotus... they lost in the development race.

[Senna's Ghost 0]

When the Vettel/Alonso incident happened I immediately said penalty, however, after watching the replays the more I believe it was Alonso's responsibility to avoid the incident occuring in the first place - after all he is the one who's behind trying to overtake and does have a steering wheel in his hands and feet on the pedals. So I disagree totally with Martin Brundle, Herbert's and Davidson's viewpoint. The driver behind making the attack has a responsibility, he can see what is happening in front of him and it is up to him to decide whether to continue on with the overtake, or back off and wait for another opportunity. As long as the driver in front does not alter his line dramatically and force the attacking driver off the road then it should be seen as honest, decent racing. Another thing to consider is that the move was taking place on the exit of Curve Grande, not on a straight, braking and going into a corner as the majority of overtaking manouevres are. Vettel was taking a legitimate line around the bend. I'm not saying he didn't know where Alonso was in relation to his car, I'm sure he did - but his job is not to make it easy for others to pass him. Most other drivers where getting the tow out of the first chicane, going around Curve Grande and then pulling right to the inside on the exit and passing on the outside into Roggia Chicane. Alonso himself chose the outside line so he could have the inside into Roggia and it didn't happen for him - tough, that's racing. Try again on another lap son but don't get on the radio and cry to teacher saying it's not fair.

Now the di Resta incident, that went unpunished, was completely different. That was a certain penalty. di Resta, on a straight - and that's and important fact, changed the line of his car and crowded Senna off the track. A violation of the FIA rule that was introduced this season.

I've pulled this from the Autosport website and highlighted what I think are the important words.

In a note sent to all drivers ahead of the British Grand Prix, Formula 1 race director Charlie Whiting had clarified that: "any driver defending his position on a straight and before any braking area may use the full width of the track during his first move provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason."

To further clarify the situation he later added: "For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'."

Senna was alongside di Resta by a significant portion and he (di Resta) changed his line. Vettel and Alonso where not fully on the straight and Vettel did not change his line.

They say it didn't matter in the end but it actually does because now a ruling has been made on an incident that has taken place on the track and any similar incidents in the future should be dealt with in the same fashion with the same penalty applied. We all know that this won't be the case and the stewards seem to pick and choose who to penalise for what often - I believe - with one eye on the race positons and the championship standings.

[Insider 0]

Vettel was innocent - he was racing and taking the correct line for that corner - Alonso is paranoid. Di Resta nearly caused a bad accident - almost as dangerous a move as Grojean last week. Bad luck for Jenson, he may have caught Lewis but Perez, my DOD may have had one of them for sure. What a cat that is.

[JHS18 0]

This from the guy who said Raikkonen on 6 podiums had no chance of a win? Most annoying thing is probably neither of them will win one.

I was generally talking more about the bigger picture, and the championship. I find it amusing they're rated so highly and they're yet to win a damn race. Everyone thought they'd be amazing at Spa...nope. Everyone thought they'd be good at Monza...nope.

As I thought before Spa - they're not good enough at the moment.

Saying that, it is amazing how close Raikkonen is to everyone else in the championship given Lotus' overall averageness. It'd be funny if it could win the title with zero wins, but I doubt that'll happen.

[pabloh20 1]

Heard a rumour but glad to discover it's true.

This from the guy who said Raikkonen on 6 podiums had no chance of a win? Most annoying thing is probably neither of them will win one.

I remember about 1 person saying that and half the forum shooting it down immediately? There are a lot of idiots in the world, no need to create imaginary ones.

Indeed.

My opinion on the Alo/Vettel incident is probably hopelessly nuanced to communicate (and quite possibly wrong, for lack of onboard replays of both incidents). It looked to me like Alonso pulled out slightly later than Vettel did last year, and that is an important difference when you're on the outside of such a fast curve. I don't know if the pass was really "on", is what I mean. To me, it seemed like Vettel being slow in a straight line (I'm assuming he was, haven't checked speed traps so I will stand corrected on that point) and Ferrari being really fast (see previous brackets) caused Alonso to pull out quite late and suddenly. It almost looked like he was caught out by the slipstream to me. That's what it looked like.

It just seemed like, as soon as Alonso pulled out, he was off the track. I'm not saying Vettel didn't know he was there (he checks his mirrors), but I think Alonso had so much speed he had to drive into a closing racing door and by the time he got there, he found it was shut, with Vettel never actually moving over when Alonso was alongside him. Last year, it was more like Vettel pulled out into a gap, was alongside and squeezed a bit, and then ended up on the grass but crucially got by. Could be wrong.

In any case the differences between the incidents don't matter too much, because like everyone said, this penalty is more the result of a culture change than anything else. Then again, something tells me that with a similar culture change happening before Monza last year, we wouldn't have seen a penalty for Alonso. Inconsistent stewards do not provide such faith

Anyway, the culture change is welcome, this penalty for what seemed like a racing incident, not so much (also see Senna v Di Resta as above).

Yep, I think Vettel might have been anticipating an overtake, as that's where he did it last year and defended the line early. I am not overly convinced about the penalty one way or another. I don't think Vettel did an awful lot wrong, I can't really see him moving over on Alonso, but it's hard to tell for definite. I think what doesn't help him is that after Alonso goes off track, he immediately goes to the inside of the track, so maybe he had moved over on Alonso.

I also find it hard to accept rules and penalties when they decide at Monza that it's ok to have 4 wheels completely outside the track coming off whatever corner it was. This was deemed ok because they said it's the longer 'racing line' so doesn't give an advantage. Well firstly, that's not what the rule states. It doesn't say you can put all 4 wheels outside the track as long as it doesn't give you an advantage. Secondly, I am pretty sure the drivers wouldn't have been going out there if it didn't give them an advantage.

[AleHop 0]

I remember about 1 person saying that and half the forum shooting it down immediately? There are a lot of idiots in the world, no need to create imaginary ones.

About Malaysia 2012 or Monza 2011? I don't remember what people said on this forum, probably nothing too bad as they're all good guys.

There's only a very annoying one and he isn't imaginary.

[Quiet One 15]

There's only a very annoying one and he isn't imaginary.

Somebody called me?

[AleHop 0]

Somebody called me?

Probably it's been me who's been a bit annoying lately. I mean, more annoying than usually.

[dribbler 6]

The key for Alonso losing the title is the same guy winning/on the podium ahead of him every single week. McLaren's car, right now, is capable of doing that. I think Hamilton's the biggest threat in that regard, even though he only has one point on Räikkönen and another on Vettel. The Red Bull isn't as fast as it used to be, and the Lotus hasn't been a winning car yet.

But it can all change...and if it does all change, that's how I expect Alonso to win the title. If McLaren stay like this for the rest of the year, different story.

I couldn't see anything Vettel did to force Alonso on the grass. It looked more like Alonso went somewhere brave and didn't have the room to be there. I saw no clear move from Vettel. Not that what I see should ever be trusted.

Agree with all of that. This has become a two horse race. We may just see the most monumental and respectful fight for the title in recent memory.

Really enjoyed this race.

[Quiet One 15]

Agree with all of that. This has become a two horse race. We may just see the most monumental and respectful fight for the title in recent memory.

Really enjoyed this race.

The good thing in this championship is that before each race we are expecting "this race will be the key!" and yet it is not. Not only because of the results, but because all of the contenders are actual contenders with the skill to challenge for the title.

By this time last year we were merely hoping Seb's finger to wither and fall off his hand.

[dribbler 6]

By this time last year we were merely hoping Seb's finger to wither and fall off his hand.

[Insider 0]

Agree with all of that. This has become a two horse race. We may just see the most monumental and respectful fight for the title in recent memory.

Really enjoyed this race.

Roger that.