159 replies to this topic

[freaky2]

Allow me to disagree with the bit about reliability for fast cars. Just remember Kimi's McLaren around 2005. Right now such things don't happen as much because F1 in general has tightened the reliability benchmarks, but that makes it even harder on the teams with more fragile cars. But by now they have practice with the current rules, so RBR isn't as screwed as it could have been. Even so, it seems that quick pace comes at a price. Good thing that Newey isn't as ambitious as with that McLaren

[AleHop]

freaky2, on 26 November 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Allow me to disagree with the bit about reliability for fast cars. Just remember Kimi's McLaren around 2005.

That's a good example but the points system wasn't as it's today. That's the problem with reliability that I wanted to point out. It's always an important factor but not as important now with 25 points per win. Alonso's car in 2005 was fast and reliable although I don' think Kimi lost that title because of reliability alone. He made some mistakes and Alonso didn't.

F2012 was reliable but wasn't a winner car. They could have finished without a single win and it wouldn't have been a surprise. I mean, you need reliability, yes but that alone won't make you win the title as it could happen with the other points system.

P.S.- Sorry for editing thrice.

You mean it isn't so easy to turn a fast but unreliable car into a fast and reliable one and you're right. I think you can find the weak points and tweak here and there but if the car is reliable but not fast enough you'll add weakness when you want to make it faster so it should be a worse scenario.

I've just read now that Alonso is asking for a faster car in 2013. Hopefully reliable too.

P.S.- And that's the fourth editing.

Edited by AleHop, 27 November 2012 - 12:04 AM.

[HandyNZL]

FFS lads and ladettes....

Sure Vettel had a little "help" from Toro Rosso, albeit under blue flags in some races (which in saying means they were complying with the rules), and in this particular one they moved over mainly because the Toro Rosso is no match to an RB...sure they could have held him up a little, but that just increases the chances of either car going off track.

Schumi was in the same boat; driving a Mercrappy is no way to fend off a Red Bull...so you move over and get on with your own race as fast as you can.

The only reason that anyone has suggested that Vettel had "outside assistance" is because two commentators on the race said so during the broadcast; and even then, more tongue in cheek, because how do they know it even has a smidgen of proof?  Are they able to read the thoughts of the drivers?  Are they able to listen to all the radio messages from the teams?

Well, sorry to say, but no, they can not.

Is it possible that STR were told to stay out of the way? Of course...it's possible.  No less impossible than to say the same message was sent to PDLR and NK down at HRT.

And Alonso had his assistance several times in teh year, not least at Austin where Ferrari came out point blank and said, yeah, we did this to help Alonso.  ANd Massa did a lovely job of boxing out Webber into turn one.

Heck Webber did a lovely job of boxing out Vettel into Turn One, thus placing Vettel in the firing line of the mid pack (to be spun around).

Both drivers had unfair advantages throughout the season.  Hell, Alonso scored points in one more race than Vettel -should we exclude those points from the mix?  Pretty big advantage to Alonso there.

For the second year, Vettel has NOT had the best car on the grid - in 2010, he never led the championship until the chequers at the last race.  And this year, he was off the pace for the better part of it - if it wasn't for his four wins through Asia (one of which could quite easily have been Hamiltons) then he might only have been fighting for second place.

The best car on the grid this year was McLaren.  Unfortunately, the gearbox was not up to snuff.  The second best car this year was Red Bull.  The third was Ferrari, and the fourth (by a none too small distance) was Team Poochie.

So in summary....Alonso drove well, had some outside assistance, finished second.  Vettel drove well, had debatable outside assistance, finished first.  Kimi drove well, had no outside assistance (they couldn't even open a gate for him), finished third, and couldn't give a rat's anus about it.

Pretty much the same as me really when it comes to the final placings...I just enjoy the sport....

[HandyNZL]

Actually, here's an idea...Ferrari should buy HRT (or what is left of it....ie the F1 franchise licence)...then they too can have a third and fourth driver.  If it's good enough for a drinks company to buy a second team.......

[BradSpeedMan]

HandyNZL, on 27 November 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

FFS lads and ladettes....

Sure Vettel had a little "help" from Toro Rosso, albeit under blue flags in some races (which in saying means they were complying with the rules), and in this particular one they moved over mainly because the Toro Rosso is no match to an RB...sure they could have held him up a little, but that just increases the chances of either car going off track.

Schumi was in the same boat; driving a Mercrappy is no way to fend off a Red Bull...so you move over and get on with your own race as fast as you can.

The only reason that anyone has suggested that Vettel had "outside assistance" is because two commentators on the race said so during the broadcast; and even then, more tongue in cheek, because how do they know it even has a smidgen of proof?  Are they able to read the thoughts of the drivers?  Are they able to listen to all the radio messages from the teams?

Well, sorry to say, but no, they can not.

Is it possible that STR were told to stay out of the way? Of course...it's possible.  No less impossible than to say the same message was sent to PDLR and NK down at HRT.

And Alonso had his assistance several times in teh year, not least at Austin where Ferrari came out point blank and said, yeah, we did this to help Alonso.  ANd Massa did a lovely job of boxing out Webber into turn one.

Heck Webber did a lovely job of boxing out Vettel into Turn One, thus placing Vettel in the firing line of the mid pack (to be spun around).

Both drivers had unfair advantages throughout the season.  Hell, Alonso scored points in one more race than Vettel -should we exclude those points from the mix?  Pretty big advantage to Alonso there.

For the second year, Vettel has NOT had the best car on the grid - in 2010, he never led the championship until the chequers at the last race.  And this year, he was off the pace for the better part of it - if it wasn't for his four wins through Asia (one of which could quite easily have been Hamiltons) then he might only have been fighting for second place.

The best car on the grid this year was McLaren.  Unfortunately, the gearbox was not up to snuff.  The second best car this year was Red Bull.  The third was Ferrari, and the fourth (by a none too small distance) was Team Poochie.

So in summary....Alonso drove well, had some outside assistance, finished second.  Vettel drove well, had debatable outside assistance, finished first.  Kimi drove well, had no outside assistance (they couldn't even open a gate for him), finished third, and couldn't give a rat's anus about it.

Pretty much the same as me really when it comes to the final placings...I just enjoy the sport....

U still have the patience to explain things, I felt it was just wasted Breath and time.....



Oh, lovely post btw!




FFS!

[Peeweev]

HandyNZL, on 27 November 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

For the second year, Vettel has NOT had the best car on the grid - in 2010, he never led the championship until the chequers at the last race.  And this year, he was off the pace for the better part of it - if it wasn't for his four wins through Asia (one of which could quite easily have been Hamiltons) then he might only have been fighting for second place.

I believe that Vettel did have the fastest car it was just unreliable which made it be behind everyone till then. Prehaps you can argue not the best in 2010 but there werent any better cars really or they would have beaten him.

HandyNZL, on 27 November 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

Heck Webber did a lovely job of boxing out Vettel into Turn One, thus placing Vettel in the firing line of the mid pack (to be spun around).

When you say spun around I hope you mean he turned in on another car and clearly caused a crash which cost 2 other drivers their races?! I dont argue with the rest of the of what you said just those two points

[HandyNZL]

Well, my point is that it hasn't been a walk in the park for the lad - others have won, and really only 2011 was a dominant year for the lad.  In 2010 and 2012 he (and the team) had to come from behind and overcome a points deficit, which in saying is not what one would expect if the car was that much better than anything else out there.

Secondly, the point re Webber squeezing him out was to a) illustrate that Webber was not exactly a helping hand and b ) that had it not happened Vettel would not have been in a position to have any sort of incident with a mid-field car, irrespective of whom may or may not have caused it.

[dribbler]

BradSpeedMan, on 27 November 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

U

Please stop doing this, dearest Bradley.

[BradSpeedMan]

dribbler, on 27 November 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

Please stop doing this, dearest Bradley.

thats what chatting at work does to me

[dribbler]

Are you a carer at a special needs facility?