9 replies to this topic

[Massa]

If Ecclestone is charged, things happen.

Currently, there's a civil suit against him in New York state.  There are enough ways to delay a lawsuit in the U.S. that, without trying to be morbid, they can probably make the civil suit outlive Ecclestone himself before its ever settled or heard in court.

I believe Ecclestone would face criminal charges in Germany as the result of an investigation, if he did.

http://www.sportsbus...Ecclestone.aspx

Hopefully, their plan works out if they need to result to it.  Say what you want about Ecclestone (waaaah he took away a horrible track in France, waaaaaah he made the sport too expensive for a con artist to field an IndyCar out of Robby Gordon's old shop, waaaaaaaah he's the reason I don't get to listen to Bob Varsha anymore ), but he has taken the value of Formula One and multiplied it by a huge amount.  That doesn't excuse illegal conduct, and that doesn't mean everything he did was a success (F1 has to be in new markets, that's just reality, but they haven't quite figured out how to do that).

I know it's impossible to talk about Ecclestone without calling him a "greedy old Hobbit," which is very clever and original I'm sure, and I know it's easier to point out races that aren't working or the sanctioning fees (yet, for being so high, we have the largest calendar in a long time with 20 rounds, and many other tracks/governments making bids to be included in the future) or whatever, but he's gotten good results for Formula One overall.  It's a shame some of the means of getting there aren't going to turn out to be very ethical...

[HandyNZL]

1 Follow the mmoney
2 He is old, he will die
3 He is not a Hobbit - he wears shoes
4 F1 will survive without him
5 The case being brought against him (apart from bribery claims) seems a little, shall we say, thin...I would imagine that any tender document (when F1 was sold) had the clause "the highest tender will not necessarily be chosen" - that's a pretty stock standard clause.
6 Meh....

[Rainmaster]

I'm all for a balanced view of Bernie, too. It's difficult to comment without the facts, so unfortunately we have to wait. But a recent Autosport column did make a few points:

Quote

This year alone, races have been mooted in Thailand, London, the US (two), Qatar, a second race in India, plus returns to France, Turkey, South Africa Argentina and Mexico – and a raft of others in even more exotic venues.
There has been a discernable pattern: whenever he [Bernie] has faced complications over his financial affairs, these have invariably been accompanied by suggestions of a race in the region. For example, no sooner had the question of an investigation of his tax affairs in Britain been raised, than he suggested a race on the streets of London, one he may even, he intimated, pay for.

When things hotted up in Germany in July he was immediately linked with the buyout of the beleaguered Nurburgring, while Magny-Cours was thrown into the French melting pot – rather than a race at Paul Ricard, owned by his family trust – when questions were raised about the transparency of said trust. In short, Ecclestone is a master of obfuscation.

Thus it may not be a coincidence that he spoke of three US races on Sky TV on the very day a summons was issued – against him and six others, including CVC Partners, the jailed German banker Gerhard Gribkowsky and his former employer Bayern Landesbank, and various F1-related companies – by a New York court.

After all, what better way of deflecting attention of the pending $650m lawsuit brought by an aggrieved potential investor than by talking of not one, or two, but three US GPs in the very near future? Although the grounds for the suit seem dubious at first reading, their significance should not be underestimated, for the parties will be required to make full disclosures under oath as part of any defence.

These could in turn impact on the various legal battles the parties currently face: the state prosecutor in Munich recently confirmed to this column that criminal investigations into Ecclestone's conduct in the $44m Gribkowsky case are ongoing, the tax investigation in the UK is believed to be underway, BayernLB has stated it wishes to recover around $60m paid to Ecclestone in commission after questions surfaced during said bribery case, and a German company going under the name of Constantin Media is attempting to recover $100m in payments it alleges it missed out on during a sale of F1's commercial rights.

Total: $850m, plus the tax investigation, which involves billions in trust monies.

[Massa]

Interesting.  Thanks, George.

There might be exceptions in full disclosures.  I'm not a lawyer (to the surprise of no one), but it's my understanding that you cannot be compelled to testify in a civil case if and only if it could be used against you in a future criminal proceeding.  What I do not know is if that applies to a future criminal proceeding in Germany, however; if there is no possibility of a criminal proceeding in New York (I don't believe there is), he may not be afforded at least that privilege.  However, they may also be allowed to continue to delay this case being heard by arguing for consistency in this protection, i.e. not hearing this case until after any German criminal case that may happen.  Basically, I feel as if charges are pressed in Germany, the New York case won't be heard until after that is done because it would go against the normal course of having criminal and civil suits in the same jurisdiction where it most logically begins with criminal proceedings (much higher burden of proof) and then moves to civil procedure.  For example, the IRS usually operates in this fashion with high-profile targets; they'll be charged as criminals to create a "scare," be found not guilty, and then be sued for back-taxes plus interest etc in civil proceeding where it is easier to win.  I've only really dealt with specific parts of law (all U.S., mostly in contracts, agencies, the Constitution, and morons who spill coffee on themselves); I'm no expert in what happens to a guy who has a civil suit in New York and a possible criminal charge in Germany.  Of course, I'm no expert in any of the things I've studied, either, or really on anything at all.

Moreover, I don't see the New York case being tried.  I'll have to read through it when the semester's over.

[JHS18]

Hasn't this Gribkowsky thing been going on like forever? It seems to have been going on for so long I'm sure this has been discussed for the past couple of years. But that could be to do with the fact that I find it so boring to read about it just feels like it has been going on that long...

I honestly couldn't care less what happens.

But...

For once, I will pay Bernie a compliment.

He does know and understand racing. He's a difficult person to understand, but you feel that he still has the passion for it. I hope when the time comes that his successor is announced that it is someone who has been in racing for a long time and knows the score well so there's a smooth transition, rather than some guy I've never heard of from the top end of some big business or whatever who hasn't a clue about racing.

Edited by JHS18, 27 November 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[Massa]

Chances are, James, you've never heard anyone use the phrase "at the speed of law" to describe something moving fast...these investigations take time and legal proceedings move very slowly.  Of course, there's the statute of limitations to prevent untimely filing of civil suits.  The bribe took place well over the six years the New York statute provides, but the argument is that the fraud wasn't discovered until the Gribkowsky case, and that further measures by Ecclestone prevented that timely discovery.

So, yeah, it's been going on for a long time.  Don't expect a quick ending, either.

[HandyNZL]

FFS, Eric...I thought you were a lawyer....are you now saying all those power of attorney documents you made out for me aren't worth diddles?

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

HandyNZL, on 28 November 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

FFS, Eric...I thought you were a lawyer....are you now saying all those power of attorney documents you made out for me aren't worth diddles?

Worse than that, it turns out that you are not really married to Britney Spears either - the documents just wouldn't stand up in court

[maure]

I just heard of the result of this year's... script.

Maybe it will take just one more title for the German government to move from looking the other way to definitely closing the case against Ecclestone.

Juuuuust one more....

[HandyNZL]

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 28 November 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

Worse than that, it turns out that you are not really married to Britney Spears either - the documents just wouldn't stand up in court

Thank the universe for that then...I was getting really worried there....