30 replies to this topic

[Senna]

Adrian Newey’s CV:


Races: 298
Cars entered: 595
Wins: 100
Poles: 119
Fastest laps: 118
Grand Prix led: 237
Amazing cars:  Williams (FW14B, FW15C, FW18, FW19), McLaren (MP4/13)
Amazing drivers:  Mansell, Damon Hill, Prost, Senna, Hakkinen, Raikkonen




Rory Byrne’s CV:


Races: 366
Cars entered: 723
Wins: 95
Poles: 71
Fastest Laps: 91
Grand Prix led: 175
Amazing cars:  Benetton (B194,  B195), Ferrari (F399, F2002, F2004)
Amazing drivers:  Senna,  Piquet, Michael Schumacher



As is clear from these statistics, Newey is a sensation.  He has achieved considerably more than Rory Byrne in far less time.

[Parag]

Yes Senna, for sure....but, I guess, according to list of Amazing Drivers......Newey had much more great driver lineup than Byrne....  

[Senna]

Parag, on Dec 19 2005, 01:38 PM, said:

Yes Senna, for sure....but, I guess, according to list of Amazing Drivers......Newey had much more great driver lineup than Byrne....  

Firstly, I should explain that I started this topic because of this post.

AutoRacer5, on Dec 18 2005, 11:44 PM, said:

Adrian Newey the best designer? Haven't you forgotten Rory Byrne? The championship winning cars from 2000-2004, as well as 1994 and 1995?

Regarding your comment Parag, Newey has had a greater number of superlative drivers that is true.

Nigel Mansell – 36 Grand Prix
Damon Hill – 65 Grand Prix
Alain Prost - 16 Grand Prix
Ayrton Senna – 3 Grand Prix
Mika Hakkinen – 66 Grand Prix
Kimi Räikkönen – 70 Grand Prix


However, Byrne did spend 190 races with Michael Schumacher!
  
Furthermore, Newey has produced far more utterly dominant cars in far less time and has achieved far more in less time.  Statistics are inherently limited and I’ve tried to be as fair as possible but the best defence of Adrian Newey’s talents is that he is almost universally regarded as the finest designer in F1.

Edited by Senna, 19 December 2005 - 06:57 PM.

[AutoRacer5]

Byrne had designed a race winning car before Newey did, Nannini in 1989 at Japan, dont start with political aspects.

[Senna]

AutoRacer5, on Dec 20 2005, 03:25 AM, said:

Byrne had designed a race winning car before Newey did, Nannini in 1989 at Japan, dont start with political aspects.

Newey only joined March in 1988.  His first win came in Mexico 1991 (with Patrese at Williams).  Byrne joined Toleman in 1981.  His first win came in Mexico 1986 (with Berger at Benetton).

[Karta]

Senna, on Dec 20 2005, 12:10 PM, said:

Newey only joined March in 1988.  His first win came in Mexico 1991 (with Patrese at Williams).  Byrne joined Toleman in 1981.  His first win came in Mexico 1986 (with Berger at Benetton).

You missing WCC and WDC btw

[Senna]

Karta, on Dec 20 2005, 10:31 AM, said:

You missing WCC and WDC btw

explain.

[schumi13]

Senna, on Dec 20 2005, 10:37 AM, said:

explain.

He's talking about how many driver's and constructor's world championships they have both helped to win. That would be interesting...

Edited by schumi13, 20 December 2005 - 04:20 PM.

[Karta]

schumi13, on Dec 20 2005, 06:01 PM, said:

She's talking about how many driver's and constructor's world championships they have both helped to win. That would be interesting...

SHE?  

[schumi13]

Karta, on Dec 20 2005, 04:09 PM, said:

SHE?  

Apologies I am half awake today.

[ecapdeville]

schumi13, on Dec 20 2005, 10:21 AM, said:

Apologies I am half awake today.

Like Schumacher all the season!!!  

[funkejay]

Senna, on Dec 19 2005, 08:33 AM, said:

Adrian Newey’s CV:


Races: 298
Cars entered: 595
Wins: 100
Poles: 119
Fastest laps: 118
Grand Prix led: 237
Amazing cars:  Williams (FW14B, FW15C, FW18, FW19), McLaren (MP4/13)
Amazing drivers:  Mansell, Damon Hill, Prost, Senna, Hakkinen, Raikkonen



Rory Byrne’s CV:


Races: 366
Cars entered: 723
Wins: 95
Poles: 71
Fastest Laps: 91
Grand Prix led: 175
Amazing cars:  Benetton (B194,  B195), Ferrari (F399, F2002, F2004)
Amazing drivers:  Senna,  Piquet, Michael Schumacher
As is clear from these statistics, Newey is a sensation.  He has achieved considerably more than Rory Byrne in far less time.

schumi13, on Dec 20 2005, 11:01 AM, said:

He's talking about how many driver's and constructor's world championships they have both helped to win. That would be interesting...

Newey - 6 WDC (4 with Williams / 2with McLaren) and 6 WCC (5 with Williams / 1 with McLaren)

Byrne - *7 WDC (2 with Benetton / 5 with Ferrari) and *7 WCC (1 with Benetton / 6 with Ferrari)

* every championship won in a Byrne designed car was achieved with MS driving.

Although the raw numbers seem to favor Newey, the end results (Championships) would seem to favor Byrne (though in fairness, Newey proved it was possible with a number of different drivers - whereas Byrne has never done it without the assistance of the 7 times WDC). Nevertheless, a pretty close match up between the two if you ask me......

Edited by funkejay, 20 December 2005 - 06:28 PM.

[schumi13]

funkejay, on Dec 20 2005, 06:23 PM, said:

Newey - 6 WDC (4 with Williams / 2with McLaren) and 6 WCC (5 with Williams / 1 with McLaren)

Byrne - *7 WDC (2 with Benetton / 5 with Ferrari) and *7 WCC (1 with Benetton / 6 with Ferrari)

* every championship won in a Byrne designed car was achieved with MS driving.

Although the raw numbers seem to favor Newey, the end results (Championships) would seem to favor Byrne (though in fairness, Newey proved it was possible with a number of different drivers - whereas Byrne has never done it without the assistance of the 7 times WDC). Nevertheless, a pretty close match up between the two if you ask me......

I knew Byrne has the majority in that respect... probably why that information wasn't added originally but lets not get into that.

[AutoRacer5]

Senna, on Dec 20 2005, 04:10 AM, said:

Newey only joined March in 1988.  His first win came in Mexico 1991 (with Patrese at Williams).  Byrne joined Toleman in 1981.  His first win came in Mexico 1986 (with Berger at Benetton).

Didn't know that Byrne had designed that car. mere technicality I overlooked.

All of MS's wins have been in cars designed by Byrne, no other designer can make that claim I think about any designer.

[Senna]

schumi13, on Dec 20 2005, 08:20 PM, said:

I knew Byrne has the majority in that respect... probably why that information wasn't added originally but lets not get into that.

I did not deliberately omit that information, I simply didn’t think of it at the time.  I am glad it has now been added.  

To elaborate on part of funkejay’s earlier post: the vast majority of statistical analysis favours Newey over Byrne*.  It is true that Byrne has marginally better statistics relating to the number of WDC and WCC won.  However, Byrne has only won the WDC with Michael Schumacher whereas Newey has won the WDC with Mansell, Prost, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve and Mika Hakkinen.

*
Greater total number of wins
Greater total number of fastest laps
Greater total number of poles
Greater total number of races led
Greater total number of laps led
Fewer disqualifications
Fewer retirements
Fewer failures to qualify

Furthermore, it is important to note that Newey has contested significantly less Grand Prix than Byrne (298 races compared to 366 races).  This disadvantages Newey in terms of absolute win/pole/fastest lap statistics and helps his absolute DSQ/DNF/DNQ statistics although he is superior on both counts anyway…  

In conclusion, I am not trying to suggest that Byrne is an untalented designer.  He is clearly very talented.  I just think that Newey is better.  My view is mirrored by the general consensus in F1.  We regularly see Newey hailed as the best designer in F1, I can’t remember the same thing being said about Byrne…

[ykickamoocow]

I only hope Newey can design a amazing car for Red Bull. I would love to see DC win again.

[Senna]

ykickamoocow, on Dec 21 2005, 12:32 AM, said:

I only hope Newey can design a amazing car for Red Bull. I would love to see DC win again.

He may have arrived too late for DC but we shall see…

[ykickamoocow]

Senna, on Dec 21 2005, 11:42 AM, said:

He may have arrived too late for DC but we shall see…

If DC performs well in 2006 then he will be driving for Red Bull Racing in 2007, im certain of it.

[AutoRacer5]

Senna, on Dec 20 2005, 06:18 PM, said:

I did not deliberately omit that information, I simply didn’t think of it at the time.  I am glad it has now been added.  

To elaborate on part of funkejay’s earlier post: the vast majority of statistical analysis favours Newey over Byrne*.  It is true that Byrne has marginally better statistics relating to the number of WDC and WCC won.  However, Byrne has only won the WDC with Michael Schumacher whereas Newey has won the WDC with Mansell, Prost, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve and Mika Hakkinen.

*
Greater total number of wins
Greater total number of fastest laps
Greater total number of poles
Greater total number of races led
Greater total number of laps led
Fewer disqualifications
Fewer retirements
Fewer failures to qualify

Furthermore, it is important to note that Newey has contested significantly less Grand Prix than Byrne (298 races compared to 366 races).  This disadvantages Newey in terms of absolute win/pole/fastest lap statistics and helps his absolute DSQ/DNF/DNQ statistics although he is superior on both counts anyway…  

In conclusion, I am not trying to suggest that Byrne is an untalented designer.  He is clearly very talented.  I just think that Newey is better.  My view is mirrored by the general consensus in F1.  We regularly see Newey hailed as the best designer in F1, I can’t remember the same thing being said about Byrne…

Then again, Newey, for almost his entire career, was at teams when they were at their strongest, and Byrne's team was at a weak part, case in point 1991-1993 and 1996-1998, and Newey had a larger driver base to work with.

[jerry]

Senna, on Dec 19 2005, 07:03 PM, said:

Adrian Newey’s CV:


Races: 298
Cars entered: 595
Wins: 100
Poles: 119
Fastest laps: 118
Grand Prix led: 237
Amazing cars:  Williams (FW14B, FW15C, FW18, FW19), McLaren (MP4/13)
Amazing drivers:  Mansell, Damon Hill, Prost, Senna, Hakkinen, Raikkonen
Rory Byrne’s CV:


Races: 366
Cars entered: 723
Wins: 95
Poles: 71
Fastest Laps: 91


Grand Prix led: 175
Amazing cars:  Benetton (B194,  B195), Ferrari (F399, F2002, F2004)
Amazing drivers:  Senna,  Piquet, Michael Schumacher
As is clear from these statistics, Newey is a sensation.  He has achieved considerably more than Rory Byrne in far less time.

great statistics -from this it would seem that newey is better and ilso think he is .this years mclaren was only aerodynamics ,the engine was the most powerful only during hakkinens time and later fizzled out.the ferrrari engine horse power is never mentioned so we dont know whether it is the power or the design that enabled ferrari to win so many gps.anyway the driver shumi also played a part so did hakkinen but still we can say newey is the better of the two.

[ykickamoocow]

Senna, on Dec 20 2005, 12:33 AM, said:

Adrian Newey’s CV:

Races: 298
Cars entered: 595
Wins: 100
Poles: 119
Fastest laps: 118
Grand Prix led: 237
Amazing cars:  Williams (FW14B, FW15C, FW18, FW19), McLaren (MP4/13)
Amazing drivers:  Mansell, Damon Hill, Prost, Senna, Hakkinen, Raikkonen
Rory Byrne’s CV:

DC has been responsible for over 10% of Newey's wins, can he add to it at Red Bull, i sure hope so.

[F1 FANatic]

Senna, on Dec 21 2005, 12:18 AM, said:

I did not deliberately omit that information, I simply didn’t think of it at the time.  I am glad it has now been added.  

To elaborate on part of funkejay’s earlier post: the vast majority of statistical analysis favours Newey over Byrne*.  It is true that Byrne has marginally better statistics relating to the number of WDC and WCC won.  However, Byrne has only won the WDC with Michael Schumacher whereas Newey has won the WDC with Mansell, Prost, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve and Mika Hakkinen.

*
Greater total number of wins
Greater total number of fastest laps
Greater total number of poles
Greater total number of races led
Greater total number of laps led
Fewer disqualifications
Fewer retirements
Fewer failures to qualify

Furthermore, it is important to note that Newey has contested significantly less Grand Prix than Byrne (298 races compared to 366 races).  This disadvantages Newey in terms of absolute win/pole/fastest lap statistics and helps his absolute DSQ/DNF/DNQ statistics although he is superior on both counts anyway…  

In conclusion, I am not trying to suggest that Byrne is an untalented designer.  He is clearly very talented.  I just think that Newey is better.  My view is mirrored by the general consensus in F1.  We regularly see Newey hailed as the best designer in F1, I can’t remember the same thing being said about Byrne…

thats like saying that he is a good designer because the engin guys didnt mess up, most of the time those three things happen its not because of the cars design but because a mechanich forgot to screw a bolt on properly, also Newy has fewer starts so its reasonable to conclude that he would have fewer in those three catagories because he has had less races where that could happen

(i dont really care who is better i just want to make sure people think about the statistics your puting up, im studying that right now in school, the way people use unrelated statictics to prove a claim, have to be more carefull senna, ill call you on it

[monza gorilla]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics...........

[pumpdoc]

monza gorilla, on Dec 21 2005, 09:20 AM, said:

Lies, damned lies, and statistics...........

Indeed, Monza indeed.............

[Karta]

Newey was at his best in statistics at end of 1999 i suppose, after wins but no championship. Byrne had 94-95 series, and then 2000-2004 series. Atm if both were available and motivated to work i would not be so certain which to choose. This year Mclaren was great, but it pales compared to F2004 (2005 was not Byrne's and neither was 2004 first part Mclaren that was worse than F2005 even probably) Furtheron both his Williams and Mclaren 1998-1999 at least were far superior in engines compared to Byrne machinery i believe.

If i could choose both of them at their best i would go with Byrne, if at current form then Newey as he is far more motivated atm i believe.

[monza gorilla]

I know the thread is about Newey and Byrne, but there have been a few guys in the genius class along the way as well.

[nojvnof1]

Chapman for one.

[Senna]

Senna, on Dec 21 2005, 12:18 AM, said:

I did not deliberately omit that information, I simply didn’t think of it at the time.  I am glad it has now been added.  

To elaborate on part of funkejay’s earlier post: the vast majority of statistical analysis favours Newey over Byrne*.  It is true that Byrne has marginally better statistics relating to the number of WDC and WCC won.  However, Byrne has only won the WDC with Michael Schumacher whereas Newey has won the WDC with Mansell, Prost, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve and Mika Hakkinen.

*
Greater total number of wins
Greater total number of fastest laps
Greater total number of poles
Greater total number of races led
Greater total number of laps led
Fewer disqualifications
Fewer retirements
Fewer failures to qualify

Furthermore, it is important to note that Newey has contested significantly less Grand Prix than Byrne (298 races compared to 366 races).  This disadvantages Newey in terms of absolute win/pole/fastest lap statistics and helps his absolute DSQ/DNF/DNQ statistics although he is superior on both counts anyway…  

In conclusion, I am not trying to suggest that Byrne is an untalented designer.  He is clearly very talented.  I just think that Newey is better.  My view is mirrored by the general consensus in F1.  We regularly see Newey hailed as the best designer in F1, I can’t remember the same thing being said about Byrne…

F1 FANatic, on Dec 21 2005, 04:22 PM, said:

thats like saying that he is a good designer because the engin guys didnt mess up, most of the time those three things happen its not because of the cars design but because a mechanich forgot to screw a bolt on properly, also Newy has fewer starts so its reasonable to conclude that he would have fewer in those three catagories because he has had less races where that could happen

(i dont really care who is better i just want to make sure people think about the statistics your puting up, im studying that right now in school, the way people use unrelated statictics to prove a claim, have to be more carefull senna, ill call you on it

[funkejay]

Karta, on Dec 23 2005, 03:37 AM, said:

If i could choose both of them at their best i would go with Byrne, if at current form then Newey as he is far more motivated atm i believe.

Although I think that Newey is probably more talented, he also falls into the "delicate genius" category, making him far more tempermental and succeptible to fall off his game when disturbed by his environment. Byrne on the other hand seems to be made of harder stuff, and as a result, I would probably have taken him over Newey in their heyday.

As it stands, both are entering the twilights of their carreers, and so if I were a Team Principle, I'd probably look at Mike Gascoyne over both of these guys - he's proven himself a very capable designer (consider the advancements at Renault and now Toyota), and has many more years left in him yet.

[Wez]

Rory Byrne because he's South African!!!

No, Seriously they are both greats!