169 replies to this topic

[Ctrl300]

Autumnpuma, on May 17 2006, 10:30 AM, said:

Ctrl, I hadn't read that excerpt on Prost's thoughts anywhere. Very interesting. It certainly goes to explain how Senna was so often quicker than Prost in the 'same' machinery. As I've learned in other threads, no amount of proof can ever convince people out of a belief they enjoy holding (look at me and Gilles ). Where it gets annoying is when you present a solid case and it isn't even acknowledged...ah well, a Senna supporter could easily say that Prost's words will never be disputed, eh?

The words may never be disputed by Senna but they sure as hell could be confirmed by Ron Dennis, Honda engineers and staff at McLaren.
Senna got all the special treatment, all the press, and all the legacy due to his tragic end. But at the end of the day, real race fans know deep inside that Prost was the better overall driver.
Prost is  

[ecapdeville]

Ahhh...this was F1...

watch this little movie...

Senna Vs Prost

and this one...

Ayrton having a chat with Schumacher

this is driving!

Ayrton at Suzuka

Ayrton Vs Senna Vs Prost...

This is racing!

For all of you that believes that watching F1 for 6 years makes you a real F1 fan.

THIS IS RACING!

[Autumnpuma]

Thanks, ecap. Brings back memories for me.

[jus_a_spectator]

it's a good debate..but who r we to rate F1 drivers? think about it, 2 me they'r all talented, skillful & greatests, else they won't be in F1 at all.. hahahah (c'mon, don't be too fanatic)

[Wez]

Autumnpuma, on May 17 2006, 02:30 AM, said:

if he would compete in the GP Master's series, I have no doubt he's clean Mansell's clock.

I tend to agree, it would certainly be good to watch.

[TotalF1 Jens]

Fantastic videos, simply amazing! If THAT was what we could still see every two weeks I'd have no trouble finding things to say about a race. Great stuff in the Prost vs. Senna video...

[AutoRacer5]

start posting more often!

[chaide]

Ayrton Senna is the best driver ever and i can demostrate it!
Yes i do .that's simple: senna mates: prost, mansell. lauda, piquet began to drive when they were almost adults, senna began when he was 13 and drove a card when he was only four. Whatever you learn (football, chess, athletics, idioms) the younger you learn it the better you are, and for car driving is exactly the same! Senna rivals were older than him and  karts became popular in the sixties and this people were too old them, they didn't have a chance to learn to drive as young as senna did, but senna was in the first generation of "child drivers" and was the best one in his generation, you can see the 1984 monaco grand prix and see how both senna and the german promise Stefan beloff gave a driving lesson to piquet, prost, lauda, arnoux, rosberg...but beloff died and senna not, not yet...
In the other hand pilots than became champions from the ninethies on can't be regarded so good as those of the eighties as nowdays f1 cards have too much electronics involved: traction control (1992), abs, semiautomatic gear box (1989)... they do not know what really means to drive a monster of 1000 hp without any help! Senna, in the middle, born in the right time to know the best of the two eras, the best one.

Comparing Senna with Prost with the same card 1988-1989:Senna 14 victories, Prost 11, one world championchip each one but the year that Prost won Senna has 4 withdrawals because of mechanical problems: engine, electrical, diffferencial...Prost only one...Prost always said that Senna had a better car than him, that's absurd, if he had a better car then why Prost made 14 fastest laps in that two years and Senna only seven?
Senna simply classified better, started better and make the first laps with plenty of fuel better (there were not fuel repostage in that days)

1993: Schumacher Benetton Ford (official Engine) Senna Mclaren Ford (older engine version) Senna five victories (three with the older version, 2nd n the world championship) vs Schumacher one victory (4 th in the WC).

This was Senna: simply the be(a)st, indiscutible for me.
if continue in doubt please see that, a picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.farzadsf1...in93/don931.mpg

http://www.formula1n...donington93.zip

Edited by chaide, 20 May 2006 - 10:39 PM.

[F1 FANatic]

chaide, on May 20 2006, 10:28 PM, said:

1993: Schumacher Benetton Ford (official Engine) Senna Mclaren Ford (older engine version) Senna five victories (three with the older version, 2nd n the world championship) vs Schumacher one victory (4 th in the WC).

Years in F1 in 93:
Senna: 9(if my math is correct)
Schumi: 2

now, how is that a fair comparison, Senna had more then three times the expiriance in F1, thats like compairing Klein and Schumacher because they both have the same engin

[Blackhorse6]

Senna is regarded by most F1 people as the best driver in F1 history.  Many Schumacher fans have some heartburn at that (and they have reason).  There are very few F1 people that rank Alain Prost in that category.

Lets look at the careers head to head while in "competitive cars 1988-1991,93"

1988  McLaren Honda (S) vs McLaren Honda (P)

Total Wins

Prost     7
Senna   8

Poles

Prost    2
Senna  13

Average finish position

Prost   3.5
Senna 3.0

Ayrton Senna World Champion

1989  McLaren Honda (S) vs McLaren Honda (P)

Total Wins

Prost    4
Senna  6

Poles

Prost    2
Senna  13

Average finish position

Prost   4.8
Senna 9.2

Alain Prost World Champion

1990  McLaren Honda (S) vs Ferrari (P)

Total Wins

Prost    5
Senna  6

Poles

Prost    0
Senna  10

Average finish position

Prost    7.0
Senna  7.0

Ayrton Senna World Champion

1991  McLaren Honda (S) vs Ferrari

Total Wins

Prost    0
Senna  7

Poles

Prost    0
Senna  8

Average finish position

Prost   11.6
Senna 3.5

Ayrton Senna World Champion  Alain Prost Fired/Quits Ferrari before end of season

And I will go ahead and add-in 1993.  While very few people would consider the McLaren Ford a "Competitive Car" compared to the Williams Renault.  Ayrton Senna piloted this car to 2nd place in the world championship.

In head to head competition (Comparative Cars) Ayrton Senna wins 3 WDC to Prost's 2 WDC.  Dominates Prost in Pole Positions and Wins

1993 McLaren Ford (S) vs. Williams Renault

Total Wins

Prost    7
Senna 5

Poles

Prost    13
Senna 1

Average Finnish position

Prost    3.9
Senna 7.8

Head to Head that stats would show what most of us already know.  Senna is the better driver!

Edited by Blackhorse6, 22 May 2006 - 03:24 AM.

[pumpdoc]

Blackhorse6, you race rice? and i suppose you got a fart can on that car also

[chaide]

F1 FANatic, on May 21 2006, 11:15 PM, said:

Years in F1 in 93:
Senna: 9(if my math is correct)
Schumi: 2

now, how is that a fair comparison, Senna had more then three times the expiriance in F1, thats like compairing Klein and Schumacher because they both have the same engin

Senna overtake everybody in monaco 84 his six f1 race with a bad car overtake rosberg (1 world championship), lauda (3 world champioship,12 or 13 seasons in f1 and with a mclaren, arnoux and some people else, he didnt need experecience.)

Thwe only race in the full year that he had a real chance of winning he could win if it wasnt be stopped stupidilly in lap 31...look for that grand prix please it is at emule if you didnt see it and enjoy both senna and beloff exibition, the pity is after that you find today f1 dull.

[chaide]

just one more thing is like comparing schum vs klien but sitting sshumacher in the red bull and klien in the ferrari...

[Blackhorse6]

pumpdoc, on May 22 2006, 07:04 AM, said:

Blackhorse6, you race rice? and i suppose you got a fart can on that car also

Thanks for the welcome...I think!      No I am not a "Rice Boy" and the only fart can I have I am sitting on right now!  I am not some loser ricer 1/4 miler, when I race it involves lefts and rights!!!  

Edited by Blackhorse6, 23 May 2006 - 10:13 PM.

[Autumnpuma]

chaide, on May 22 2006, 08:58 AM, said:

Senna overtake everybody in monaco 84 his six f1 race with a bad car overtake rosberg (1 world championship), lauda (3 world champioship,12 or 13 seasons in f1 and with a mclaren, arnoux and some people else, he didnt need experecience.)

Thwe only race in the full year that he had a real chance of winning he could win if it wasnt be stopped stupidilly in lap 31...look for that grand prix please it is at emule if you didnt see it and enjoy both senna and beloff exibition, the pity is after that you find today f1 dull.

This is classic. Bellof was a great driver who would have shaken the F1 world up...

Welcome, btw!!

[pumpdoc]

Blackhorse6, on May 23 2006, 03:11 PM, said:

Thanks for the welcome...I think!      No I am not a "Rice Boy" and the only fart can I have I am sitting on right now!  I am not some loser ricer 1/4 miler, when I race it involves lefts and rights!!!  

That's cool!, It's just that I got a new car and i'm always getting looks from the rice brigade and then I have to blow their rice a## off     

[F1 FANatic]

pumpdoc, on May 24 2006, 02:11 AM, said:

That's cool!, It's just that I got a new car and i'm always getting looks from the rice brigade and then I have to blow their rice a## off     

the ones in the rice rockets or the RiceUV's (SUV's "tricked out" buy ricers), im thinking the former

but me and my pals have a wall at our hangout where we take pics of every wana be ricer with his car and its pretty funny, so far we have almost 200 in SD, the only problem is that in the dark the pics arnt great and thats when they usaly come out of hiding.

Edited by F1 FANatic, 24 May 2006 - 02:17 AM.

[Wez]

Werlcome chaide & Blackhorse6! nice posts. Personally I agree with your views on the Senna - Prost argument (see my views earlier in this topic).

Hope you enjoy your stay here, Viva Senna!!!

[Blackhorse6]

Wez, on May 24 2006, 09:19 AM, said:

Werlcome chaide & Blackhorse6! nice posts. Personally I agree with your views on the Senna - Prost argument (see my views earlier in this topic).

Hope you enjoy your stay here, Viva Senna!!!

Thanks for the welcome.  

[chaide]

ty i though i was then only one

[Ctrl300]

ecapdeville, on May 17 2006, 02:20 PM, said:

Ahhh...this was F1...

watch this little movie...

Senna Vs Prost

and this one...

Ayrton having a chat with Schumacher

this is driving!

Ayrton at Suzuka

Ayrton Vs Senna Vs Prost...

This is racing!

For all of you that believes that watching F1 for 6 years makes you a real F1 fan.

THIS IS RACING!

chaide, on May 21 2006, 08:28 AM, said:

Ayrton Senna is the best driver ever and i can demostrate it!
Yes i do .that's simple: senna mates: prost, mansell. lauda, piquet began to drive when they were almost adults, senna began when he was 13 and drove a card when he was only four. Whatever you learn (football, chess, athletics, idioms) the younger you learn it the better you are, and for car driving is exactly the same! Senna rivals were older than him and  karts became popular in the sixties and this people were too old them, they didn't have a chance to learn to drive as young as senna did, but senna was in the first generation of "child drivers" and was the best one in his generation, you can see the 1984 monaco grand prix and see how both senna and the german promise Stefan beloff gave a driving lesson to piquet, prost, lauda, arnoux, rosberg...but beloff died and senna not, not yet...
In the other hand pilots than became champions from the ninethies on can't be regarded so good as those of the eighties as nowdays f1 cards have too much electronics involved: traction control (1992), abs, semiautomatic gear box (1989)... they do not know what really means to drive a monster of 1000 hp without any help! Senna, in the middle, born in the right time to know the best of the two eras, the best one.

Comparing Senna with Prost with the same card 1988-1989:Senna 14 victories, Prost 11, one world championchip each one but the year that Prost won Senna has 4 withdrawals because of mechanical problems: engine, electrical, diffferencial...Prost only one...Prost always said that Senna had a better car than him, that's absurd, if he had a better car then why Prost made 14 fastest laps in that two years and Senna only seven?
Senna simply classified better, started better and make the first laps with plenty of fuel better (there were not fuel repostage in that days)

1993: Schumacher Benetton Ford (official Engine) Senna Mclaren Ford (older engine version) Senna five victories (three with the older version, 2nd n the world championship) vs Schumacher one victory (4 th in the WC).

This was Senna: simply the be(a)st, indiscutible for me.
if continue in doubt please see that, a picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.farzadsf1...in93/don931.mpg

http://www.formula1n...donington93.zip

Blackhorse6, on May 22 2006, 01:21 PM, said:

Senna is regarded by most F1 people as the best driver in F1 history.  Many Schumacher fans have some heartburn at that (and they have reason).  There are very few F1 people that rank Alain Prost in that category.

Lets look at the careers head to head while in "competitive cars 1988-1991,93"

1988  McLaren Honda (S) vs McLaren Honda (P)

Total Wins

Prost     7
Senna   8

Poles

Prost    2
Senna  13

Average finish position

Prost   3.5
Senna 3.0

Ayrton Senna World Champion

1989  McLaren Honda (S) vs McLaren Honda (P)

Total Wins

Prost    4
Senna  6

Poles

Prost    2
Senna  13

Average finish position

Prost   4.8
Senna 9.2

Alain Prost World Champion

1990  McLaren Honda (S) vs Ferrari (P)

Total Wins

Prost    5
Senna  6

Poles

Prost    0
Senna  10

Average finish position

Prost    7.0
Senna  7.0

Ayrton Senna World Champion

1991  McLaren Honda (S) vs Ferrari

Total Wins

Prost    0
Senna  7

Poles

Prost    0
Senna  8

Average finish position

Prost   11.6
Senna 3.5

Ayrton Senna World Champion  Alain Prost Fired/Quits Ferrari before end of season

And I will go ahead and add-in 1993.  While very few people would consider the McLaren Ford a "Competitive Car" compared to the Williams Renault.  Ayrton Senna piloted this car to 2nd place in the world championship.

In head to head competition (Comparative Cars) Ayrton Senna wins 3 WDC to Prost's 2 WDC.  Dominates Prost in Pole Positions and Wins

1993 McLaren Ford (S) vs. Williams Renault

Total Wins

Prost    7
Senna 5

Poles

Prost    13
Senna 1

Average Finnish position

Prost    3.9
Senna 7.8

Head to Head that stats would show what most of us already know.  Senna is the better driver!

After reading stories to my childern I know I could never better the lies posted by the ignorant noobs on this forum. You are all probably right since you all have bought a video of the highlights of Senna's carreer...
Well, as curb hugging w#nkers usually have a better insight than team owners I would like to quote Sir Frank Williams who said that Prost was the overall better driver.
Well I guess that all you professional (1987-1993) engeiners on this forum will deny this, at the end of the day, what can I say but you are all twats. Prost is king, you are sobs. End of story.

[AutoRacer5]

*yawns*

You lost in the poll that you created. Deal with it.

[Geordie]

The records say Prost was the best. Simple.

[Blackhorse6]

Ctrl300, on Jun 2 2006, 03:20 PM, said:

After reading stories to my childern I know I could never better the lies posted by the ignorant noobs on this forum. You are all probably right since you all have bought a video of the highlights of Senna's carreer...
Well, as curb hugging w#nkers usually have a better insight than team owners I would like to quote Sir Frank Williams who said that Prost was the overall better driver.
Well I guess that all you professional (1987-1993) engeiners on this forum will deny this, at the end of the day, what can I say but you are all twats. Prost is king, you are sobs. End of story.

Ctrl300,

I may be a noob to this board, but I have been involved with F1 for over 20+ years.  You asked for people’s comments and opinions on Prost Vs Senna. And when people come with Facts (those that I posted are not made up) to disprove your theory you have the audacity to dismiss their comments as those of "noobs" and throw out comments that we are "twats and Sobs" well... Go back to your pitiful little "Senna Hating" corner and ignore the Historical facts and F1 Fan opinion as well, and continue to be the w#nker you have shown to be.

[AutoRacer5]

Geordie, on Jun 3 2006, 04:58 PM, said:

The records say Prost was the best. Simple.

Records also say that Schumi was better, but others disagree.

[Autumnpuma]

I believe we've all seen a great many 'facts' in this thread. Some favor Prost, others favor Senna. One truth we have discovered is that, even in the face of 'facts' we will support who we will.

One thing is certain: I miss them both. We will never see their likes again until we take the technical regulations of 1997 and impelment them today.

We may already have a Senna or Prost and barely notice it...

[Geordie]

Autumnpuma, on Jun 4 2006, 12:03 AM, said:

I believe we've all seen a great many 'facts' in this thread. Some favor Prost, others favor Senna. One truth we have discovered is that, even in the face of 'facts' we will support who we will.

One thing is certain: I miss them both. We will never see their likes again until we take the technical regulations of 1997 and impelment them today.

We may already have a Senna or Prost and barely notice it...

Too true. F1 could and should be better than what It Is now.

[chaide]

Ctrl300, on Jun 2 2006, 09:20 PM, said:

After reading stories to my childern I know I could never better the lies posted by the ignorant noobs on this forum. You are all probably right since you all have bought a video of the highlights of Senna's carreer...
Well, as curb hugging w#nkers usually have a better insight than team owners I would like to quote Sir Frank Williams who said that Prost was the overall better driver.
Well I guess that all you professional (1987-1993) engeiners on this forum will deny this, at the end of the day, what can I say but you are all twats. Prost is king, you are sobs. End of story.

i have been watching f1 since 1987...all this people dont think like f.williams:

Ron Dennis
Ken Tyrell
Eddie Jordan
Peter Sauber
Giancarlo Minardi
Harvey Postlethwaite
Gordon Murray
Jochen Neerpasch
Jody Scheckter
Stirling Moss
Marc Surer
Murray Walker
Simon Taylor
Tony Jardine
James Allen
Louise Goodman
Jabby Crombac
Heinz Prueller
Nigel Roebuck
Maurice Hamilton
Alan Henry
David Tremayne
Christopher Hilton
Gerlad Donaldson
Richard Williams
Mike Doodson
Elmar Brummer
Tony Dodgins
Peter Windsor
Matt Bishop
Ian Bond
Caroline O'Connor
Nick Bagot
Tom Clarkson
Darren Heath
Paul-Henri Cahier
Rainer Schlegelmilch
Martyn Elford
Jeff Bloxham
Katja Heim
Willi Weber
Ortwin Podlech
Chris Rea

http://www.thef1.com...tos/index.shtml

i desagree of course, schumacher problably is better than prost...

Edited by chaide, 15 June 2006 - 10:58 PM.

[kup]

Wez, on May 9 2006, 11:41 AM, said:

Senna was greater than Prost!!!
Those stats dont mean a thing because Prost raced a larger percentage of his career in _more_competitive_ cars...
Senna's career:
1984 - Toleman (Super Aguri Pace)
1985 - Lotus (Red Bull Pace)
1986 - Lotus (Red Bull Pace)
1987 - Lotus (Toyota Pace)
1988 - Mclaren - World Champion
1989 - Mclaren - Runner Up
1990 - Mclaren - World Champion
1991 - Mclaren - World Champion
1992 - Mclaren - (Bar Pace)
1993 - Mclaren - (Bar Pace) Runner Up

Well ... best drivers are more likely to be going in (with) more competitive cars.
(= Team bosses have eyes wide open, you know !
Senna and Prost were pretty equal ...
And how old are you ? You must be kidding !
1984 - Toleman is like SuperAguri ? (LOL) is like RedBull - Oke, maybe.
1985-86-87 - Lotus (RedBull ? = LOL) is like Toyota-05 or BAR-04, or McLaren-06 at least !
Lotus in 85-86 was in Top-5 teams in every season ! So stop kidding with yourself and facts.
McLaren 92-93 = BAR pace ? LOL !!! - Maybe equal to McLaren`s 06-05 (in this order) pace ...

Senna`s Lotus/McLaren - cars was able to win a race or some ...
And can you cuont ALL (any?) RedBull/Toyota/BAR wins ? He-he ... you know.

[kup]

AutoRacer5, on Jun 3 2006, 10:57 PM, said:

Records also say that Schumi was better, but others disagree.

Records just says MS has it more in quantity. And quality (!) is the other stats.
MS was better over worse drivers and AP and AS was better over better drivers (the pack).