No Refueling Rule : Guesstimating The Typical Fuel Loads

[cavallino 2]

Brilliant post. In fact, everything you've put into this thread has been damned good and I agree with it all.

Ok I gotta read this thread now.

[cavallino 2]

A different issue will be weight distribution, as the car will have to be designed to adjust to significant change in overall mass through out the race.

Yep, and therefore changing steering characteristics of the car.

I would say that, perhaps of most relevance, different engines will have different consumption rates. One can imagine all teams are working on super-efficient engines but whoever does it best will be able to carry less fuel and, thus, a lighter car from the get-go.

Hmm but how much difference in consumption would there be between the same displacement same angled v8s revving to the same rpm made of the same materials running on cars weighing exactly the same? Anyone got any numbers, I don't have much faith in maure's arguments from authority.

Drivers will also have to adapt to cars that change much more than they do now during a race. This will be a huge factor in some cases. Drivers tend to be finicky... ok, are the very definition of finicky.

And, then, there is FIA's script.

Oh you had to sneak some crap into a mostly reasonable post didn't you? Ok, so why do you watch F1, since it's scripted and a huge conspiracy to make Lewis make good for Lewisterics and make Alonso look like a slimy cheat and to make Kimi look incompetent and get scared off to WRC coz he isn't good enough to compete at the top in F1 any more? Is it like WWE, you like the scriptedness? Well no coz you complain all the time?

Yup no doubt it's a complicated calculation to get the fuel load just right.

Haha Graham, you got caught there. Actually, compared to everything else it will be a very simple calculation. For a sunny race, this is one thing where their simulations would work well, they would actually be simplified compared to trying to calculate the load for each pit stop. When it rains of course, the best laid plans..

Don't forget, you were right in a few ways at least when you said the level of technological knowhow in F1 isn't as great as some make it out to be.

[cavallino 2]

Qualy will be done on empty tanks once again in 2010, so no need to carry race fuel loads in Q3.

That's the single most beautiful thing I have read for a while, I had completely forgotten about it. Schumacher + low fuel qualifying Can't wait..

Simple, plain curiousity. That's all. Plus, yes, carrying 3 times the fuel does make it a hazard (or so I think).

Nope, not any more than it is now.

Abandon F1

They already have.

What FIA should do is to get rid off the monopoly over tires in F1 and allow other companies back in. In other fcking words, let the fcking competition be a fcking competition.

Yes, let's have formula tyre again. Everyone complained about 2002 and 2004. You want to go back to those years? Or another Indy 2005?

... and competition between tire manufacturers implies it all, from better tires to better prices. It seems counter-intuitive only if one has a "left-wing" politics mindset. However, in times of crisis, the best and truly only solution is open competition, lower taxes (in this case, FIA's take), etc, etc.

WTF?? Did you just link tyres in F1 to a Reaganite republican free market argument. Do you believe the crap that comes out of your own mouth

Control tyres are good. Tyres have too big an impact on performance. We've seen it again and again and again. Feel free to disagree, but please please make a better argument than that.

Of course, regulations are a determent to competition and make it expensive. That's the reason why costs in F1 have gone up and up over the years... champagne and stage btches aside.

:s Costs have gone up because of what manufacturers were willing to throw away (being remedied now) and what sponsors are willing to throw in. The FIA has reined in costs - look at the success of RB, FI etc. IT IS EXACTLY DUE TO THE REGULATIONS THAT COSTS HAVE COME DOWN. DO YOU EVEN READ WHAT YOU WRITE. GEEZ

You bet. Only on account of the mechanics of it, changing tires is more complex than refueling and more prone to error.

Utter crap. Transferring a highly flammable liquid at that kind of pressure is a far trickier task than turning a few screws really fast. Have you seen those giant refuelling rigs in F1? Do you have any idea how much they cost?

Bah. Without the threat of not racing, qualifying is a pointless. The whole idea, for our younger forum members, is to qualify for the race. Fail to qualify, fail to race.

The whole idea, for our more senile forum members is to go out on low fuel and set the fastest time you can That makes for an awesome spectacle, and I am glad we are going back to it. Forcing teams to qualify isn't practical in this day, and with the gap between top and bottom 2 seconds a lap or so is completely unnecessary.

Qualifying is a humbug.

12 lap qualifying was awesome. I still remember sitting through the first one lap quali session with new rules, staring in utter horror for a whole hour, thinking how someone could be so staggeringly stupid as to come up with that.

Oh and did you just skim through Maure-on's posts? They are as full of crap as ever I feel like whatsisname the daily show dude Jon Stewart?? after he airs some crazy Fox News segment after reading maure's posts.

[AleHop 0]

Hmm but how much difference in consumption would there be between the same displacement same angled v8s revving to the same rpm made of the same materials running on cars weighing exactly the same? Anyone got any numbers, I don't have much faith in maure's arguments from authority.

I think revs aren't limited to 18k in 2010. They'll be able to use 8 engines for the whole year. That's all I think.

They'll have some variables to play with.

[ecapdeville 0]

12 lap qualifying was awesome.

Completely agree with you... remember those days too, wish they remove that Q1, Q2 and Q3 crap...

[jackgarrett 0]

They will qualifying on fumes. The fastest car will be on the pole.

I think that one of the reasons ms is back. The whole reason that brought in no refuling for the race was becaues of ms.

[ecapdeville 0]

I think that one of the reasons ms is back. The whole reason that brought in no refuling for the race was becaues of ms.

You are kidding arent you?

[Autumnpuma 0]

The whole idea, for our more senile forum members is to go out on low fuel and set the fastest time you can That makes for an awesome spectacle, and I am glad we are going back to it. Forcing teams to qualify isn't practical in this day, and with the gap between top and bottom 2 seconds a lap or so is completely unnecessary.

I appreciate the spectacle and I'm also glad we're getting back to a more pure form of qualifying. What I miss about the original idea of qualifying is that it would be an open qualifying. Bring your car and qualify. You get wild cards and quite an interesting grid that way.

Oh and did you just skim through Maure-on's posts? They are as full of crap as ever I feel like whatsisname the daily show dude Jon Stewart?? after he airs some crazy Fox News segment after reading maure's posts.

Maybe. I do agree with quite a lot of what he posted. The bit about regulations increasing cost. He's right, you know. Every time a regulation is put in place, the teams spend tons more money just clawing back the performance that was scrubbed with said regulation. And in the end the cars are very nearly as fast as they were. Other bits I agree with as well, like open competition and warring tyre companies (for different reasons than Maure stated, though). I suppose I agree most with his spirit of open, limited-regulation racing. Some of his wording is odd, however, but I grok him enought to read around that.

Completely agree with you... remember those days too, wish they remove that Q1, Q2 and Q3 crap...

Yup. All the three sessions do is remove slower cars from the track when faster cars are shooting for pole. Gone are the days when a Jaguar could do a hail-Mary run and snag pole. Gone are the days of hearing drivers like DC whinge because a slow car ruined their pole lap. I miss those days.

[jackgarrett 0]

You are kidding arent you?

no

[DOF_power 0]

Brilliant post. In fact, everything you've put into this thread has been damned good and I agree with it all.

True to an extent. There are no major changes allowed to the lumps, but a small thing like, for example, a more effective lubricant will improve fuel efficiency. Get enough of those small items in your favor and you can have cars with drastically different fuel mileages and still conform to the idiotic engine rules. Also consider the effect that more efficient downforce settings have; less drag will help the figures. Lastly, there's the driver's foot.

Drivers will be as useless as always, since there won't be any dry weather passing, like it's been the case since 1995/96. And there wasn't much before, not since 1988.

Until these cars are scrapped entirely and the circuits modified to allow passing for these grip/cornering/performance level by using oval style bankings with multiple lines, nothing will improve.

And bring back the f***ing electronics, I'm embarrassed that the supposed pinnacle of motorsport has less technology then a freaking econo-box hatchback.

[DOF_power 0]

Are memory spans very short or is the average forum age way below what I thought?

We had a long period without refuelling up to 1993.

I expect it'll be fun for the first half of 2010 and then people will forget they where ever allowed to refuel until they change the rules back circa 2024.

The rule will be scrapped if doesn't improve passing, witch it wont.

So expect re-fueling for 2011/2012.

[JHS 1]

I calculate it to be................................................... full.

I agree. Marvellous knowledge!