No Refueling Rule : Guesstimating The Typical Fuel Loads

[LabradoRacer 2]

For a 300-km race, 2 pitstops, where each pitstop typically sees an intake of 80-100 litres (pardon me if I'm wrong). Range on that fuel is 18-22 laps, or approx 100 kms. So with the no-refueling rule, it does seem staggering that every car will have to be topped up with at least 240 litres of fuel. What do you think the amount might be? Won't it be dangerous?

Also, this might seem stupid, but when a F1 car's cornering, does the 'splashing around' of the fuel inside the fuel tank play any role in (in)stability? Is it factored into account when designing?

[HandyNZL 1]

I calculate it to be................................................... full.

The fuel doesn't splash around or move much....it is in bladders with a baffle membrane which prevents that sort of thing.

[AleHop 0]

I hope they make car weight public every race like they did last year.

[HandyNZL 1]

650kg. Less a few for the lighter drivers, like Heidfeld (if he gets another go)

[AleHop 0]

650kg. Less a few for the lighter drivers, like Heidfeld (if he gets another go)

Minimum weight = 620 kg. + fuel ~ 800 kg.

Harder compounds + no tyre warmers =

Softer compounds + ban refueling =

[HandyNZL 1]

thought you meant just the car...lol

but does the weight matter that much? pretty irrelevant now

[AleHop 0]

but does the weight matter that much? pretty irrelevant now

That's the question. Nobody knows for sure I'm afraid. Ban refueling together with no tyre warmers and mixed with a bit of cost cutting will put Bridgestone on a difficult situation next season. I hope I'm wrong.

[Bambino 0]

My daddy put so much petrol in our car the other day, we couldn't get in it.

[yurp 0]

Since we'll have everyone on similar fuel loads we'll miss out on heavy cars coming out of the pits and being passed by lighter cars yet to pit a la 70% of the overtaking we saw in 2009.

On the other hand, we'll get cars coming out on cold tyres and being overtaken by cars on warmed up tyres to make up for that.

Bridgestone are likely to lean towards harder compounds in general as they bow out of F1, so I suspect we'll have some interesting cold tyre entertainment.

[mikathegreat2 2]

240 liters of fuel=slower cars! It's all part of Bernie's secret plan to destroy F1!

[pabloh20 1]

Well, at Spa they use approx 3.50kg of fuel per lap, 44 laps for the race, so 154kg of fuel. Let's call it 155kg for good measure

[yurp 0]

Well, at Spa they use approx 3.50kg of fuel per lap, 44 laps for the race, so 154kg of fuel. Let's call it 155kg for good measure

Yes, but people are forgetting that carrying more fuel throughout the race means a heavier car, thus requiring more fuel per lap (until last pit stop) than now.

It's an exponential relationship, not a linear one.

You can't just count on a fuel per lap basis. A lap will take more fuel with a heavier car at the start of the race, than with an empty car at the end.

[LabradoRacer 2]

From wikipedia - "...consumption rate is normally around 75 liters per 100 kilometers " .

So for 300 kms, around 225 litres + 15 extra litres, for the reason Adam's given. Ya, it's 240. That's about 10 buckets.

[HandyNZL 1]

And wikipedia is always right

Last I looked they had that the sun revolved around the earth!!!

[pabloh20 1]

Yes, but people are forgetting that carrying more fuel throughout the race means a heavier car, thus requiring more fuel per lap (until last pit stop) than now.

It's an exponential relationship, not a linear one.

You can't just count on a fuel per lap basis. A lap will take more fuel with a heavier car at the start of the race, than with an empty car at the end.

Yep, there's definitely that to it as well, but then you will not be going as fast at the start, either, so the fuel consumption will be alleviated comparitively. And I don't know how those figures are worked out, it might be be an average of 3.5kg a lap over a an x amount of laps stint. I presume it will be some sort of 'averaged' consumption.

[pabloh20 1]

From wikipedia - "...consumption rate is normally around 75 liters per 100 kilometers " .

So for 300 kms, around 225 litres + 15 extra litres, for the reason Adam's given. Ya, it's 240. That's about 10 buckets.

It varies from circuit to circuit, though

[aussief1 4]

One of the most interesting parts of a GP in 2010 will be the starts. Getting what will be a very overweight car off the line combined with cold hard tyres will be great to see. The first couple of laps will be almost comparable to wet weather driving. The cars will be a pig compared to when the drivers last drove them in qualy set up with little fuel on board.

[maure 1]

For a 300-km race, 2 pitstops, where each pitstop typically sees an intake of 80-100 litres (pardon me if I'm wrong). Range on that fuel is 18-22 laps, or approx 100 kms. So with the no-refueling rule, it does seem staggering that every car will have to be topped up with at least 240 litres of fuel. What do you think the amount might be? Won't it be dangerous?

Also, this might seem stupid, but when a F1 car's cornering, does the 'splashing around' of the fuel inside the fuel tank play any role in (in)stability? Is it factored into account when designing?

Interesting thread.

Yep. The splashing is no more an issue than it is now. Fuel tanks are designed to take care of that. A different issue will be weight distribution, as the car will have to be designed to adjust to significant change in overall mass through out the race.

I would say that, perhaps of most relevance, different engines will have different consumption rates. One can imagine all teams are working on super-efficient engines but whoever does it best will be able to carry less fuel and, thus, a lighter car from the get-go.

There are other questions too. For instance, what does the norefuling thingy mean for the quali? Also, norefueling implies pitstops are banned too? If not, using up softer tires might become a factor, iow, we might have as many pitstops are we do now.

Drivers will also have to adapt to cars that change much more than they do now during a race. This will be a huge factor in some cases. Drivers tend to be finicky... ok, are the very definition of finicky.

And, then, there is FIA's script.

[Max Mosley 2]

Yep, there's definitely that to it as well, but then you will not be going as fast at the start, either, so the fuel consumption will be alleviated comparitively. And I don't know how those figures are worked out, it might be be an average of 3.5kg a lap over a an x amount of laps stint. I presume it will be some sort of 'averaged' consumption.

Yup no doubt it's a complicated calculation to get the fuel load just right. The engineers will have to account for varying fuel consumption rates if they want to optimise the fuel loads perfectly but surely it won't vary by all that much so your three and a half bags of sugar a lap at Spa is a good ball-park figure. Maybe sometimes it will be 3.8kg/lap and sometimes 3.3kg/lap etc. You basically agree with Jay too because the density of petrol is around 3/4 that of water, so 155kg is about 210L.

As an aside, wouldn't it be interesting if we could find out how F1 teams do these sums? But of course we can't because it's a secret. It just happens by magic as far as we're concerned.

[mikathegreat2 2]

My Dad pointed out, while I was complaining on my local radio show that no refuelling will make races like Monaco & Valencia very boring, that cars will still have to change tyres! Fair nuff but i've never seen a tyre changing calamity! Has anyone else??

[c21 0]

My Dad pointed out, while I was complaining on my local radio show that no refuelling will make races like Monaco & Valencia very boring, that cars will still have to change tyres! Fair nuff but i've never seen a tyre changing calamity! Has anyone else??

I hate to admit it, but BMW Sauber messed up a wheel change in Barcelona in 2006 (three wheel nuts just dont work!)

Think for a minute though, normally the wheel guys are finished before the refueling, so the guys had a little butter fingers time.

now its all up to them, so perfect wheel changes will be more important than ever!

[HandyNZL 1]

My Dad pointed out, while I was complaining on my local radio show that no refuelling will make races like Monaco & Valencia very boring, that cars will still have to change tyres! Fair nuff but i've never seen a tyre changing calamity! Has anyone else??

There was this one time, at band camp....

Schumacher was almost sent on his way with three wheels once by Ferrari. Someone had decided that just three wheels would be fine, and left the fourth in the back of the shed. Even the two guys that usually put the wheel in place just sat there, possibly thinking "I'll look like a d#ck if I go and get that wheel now....I'll just sit here till Bob goes and gets it and then I'll look the smartest for not forgetting it"

And there was this other time, at band camp....

Alonso was released with one wheel not done up just recently. The FIA took a very dim view of this, and decided to ban Renault from the next race even.

And there was this other other time, at band camp....

Where Eric and this trombone......

[pabloh20 1]

Yup no doubt it's a complicated calculation to get the fuel load just right. The engineers will have to account for varying fuel consumption rates if they want to optimise the fuel loads perfectly but surely it won't vary by all that much so your three and a half bags of sugar a lap at Spa is a good ball-park figure. Maybe sometimes it will be 3.8kg/lap and sometimes 3.3kg/lap etc. You basically agree with Jay too because the density of petrol is around 3/4 that of water, so 155kg is about 210L.

As an aside, wouldn't it be interesting if we could find out how F1 teams do these sums? But of course we can't because it's a secret. It just happens by magic as far as we're concerned.

Yep, I am guessing it would be something like that. It will be interesting to see if anybody runs out of fuel at the start of the season! And yes 210L seems about right for Spa, but for Monaco, for example, the fuel is more like 1.59kg per lap, 124kg of fuel in total or 170L.

It would be interesting. I presume they start collecting the data in pre-season testing and then are able to analyse it, apply it to different circuits and set ups and then refine it during the season.

[maure 1]

Fair nuff but i've never seen a tyre changing calamity! Has anyone else??

Sure. It's common enough as a matter of fact or, at least, more common than refueling problems.

[yurp 0]

Are memory spans very short or is the average forum age way below what I thought?

We had a long period without refuelling up to 1993.

I expect it'll be fun for the first half of 2010 and then people will forget they where ever allowed to refuel until they change the rules back circa 2024.