Redbull In Serious Trouble.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

That's all true, but I think the main reason people doubted him was not the fact he wasn't winning, but the fact that he was spanked by Rosberg for 3 years straight. Yep he improved in 2012 speed-wise, but he was still crashing into people too often, and still slower than Nico.

[Emmcee 0]

I don't think his speed or ability was any different either. It's just he couldn't get used to the cars, he was old school, test the actual car, not simators, lol it's probably like trying to explain to your grandad how to play the playstation. He preferred the more hands on approach. That's my opinion anyway.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Red Bull should buy Manor. Cheap. Could probably get the whole team for 20-30m. And with that, they have a valid Merc engine contract. Hmm.

I wait in anticipation for Manor to fold like a cheap suit since all the management have left. And Toto then comes out and tells another lie that they cannot supply RBR with engines because they have now given Manor's engines to Merc. Yep just give them back to yourselves. I so want Toto gone from this sport. I CAN'T stand him.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Are those actually Toto's decisions though? I expect decisions like that come from above - I may be wrong.

Out of curiosity why are Booth & Lowdon leaving Manor? Seems more than a coincidence that it's announced shortly after they secured Merc engines.

[Emmcee 0]

Maybe they know what's ahead and there leaving before hand? Who knows. Redbull has one option now and that's only Honda as redbull came out and just said they have no affiliation with Renault next year. If it's not Honda I think there best bet is to muscle in at toro Rosso. The name will be redbull toro Rosso and they have a Ferrari engine. With the new rule next year stating customers engines must be same spec as factory, then without a doubt that's the best route to go. But I also read Honda is very keen on supplying redbull, it's just Ron Dennis who is jumping up and down about it. He's just worried redbull will beat Mclaren in the first season with that engine, but if he looks at it from another angle, more cars running that engine the better isn't it? Faster development.

[KoolMonkey 0]

That might be why there is tension at Merc between Toto and Lauda. It keeps being swept under the carpet, but Merc and RBR had an almost agreement. Toto even stated he wasn't able to talk to RBR whilst they had a contract with Renault. Read between the lines and that means, cancel your contract and then we can talk. They did, Toto then won't play ball. Of course Jem he's not Merc. And I had read that the higher uppers in Merc did want to supply RBR. But it seems Toto has been doing everything he can to persuade those inside of Merc to not supply.

As for Manor, there's clearly something going on. It won't make any difference to a team that small if they have Merc engines or not. I saw it more as a way for Merc to claim they couldn't supply RBR because they were supplying too many teams already.

If we were back in the V8s days, then RBR would have some options. Even now, if they could buy 10 engines, they could have Ilmor work on them to get them up to spec. But because they are new spec V6 engines with the MGUs, even if they could get an engine, they'd never get an MGU. So they are stuffed in that regard.

RBR paid Ilmor millions to improve Renaults engines. Apparently they found half a second in performance. But the blind bats at Renault ignored this all and said we know what we're doing. That's by RBR wanted to walk away. Not because they were coming last, but because with that attitude, they'd never improve. Renault haven't done anything, in fact they've gone backwards. This isn't a Force India, Sauber, Caterham, this is Red Bull. And whether you like the brand or not, they have always strived to be the best in whatever extreme sport or thing they have played a part of. So just being in F1 knowing there's not a damn thing they can do to improve their situation must really suck for them.

Bernie and Todt have to fix this. If RBR go, then we have 3x car teams. Merc #1,#2,#3, with the occasional Vettel podium. Lewis the greatest ever because Nico was incapable of challenging him. Wow I can't wait. That just sounds so exciting and the pinnacle of something doesn't it.

[Emmcee 0]

They have gone backwards, just look at last season to this one.

[rodders47 2]

This new info coming out about Red Bull using renault ICU and developing their own ERS sounds very interesting. If anyone can make this work RBR can. Watch out Merc is all I can say

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah but the issue has been the lump, not the ers.

[KoolMonkey 0]

I'd say the issue has been both. Renault have never had a competitive engine, even in the V8 days. It was RBR aero trickery with blown diffusers and such that made up the difference.

If this is true as exclusively reported by TheJudge13 here: http://thejudge13.com/2015/11/05/exclusive-red-bull-secure-an-engine-for-2016/ ...

then this is fantastic news indeed!

I was amazed to read this -

Mario Illien, the former Ilmor engine guru, has been working in the new Milton Keynes building 9 for over a year and assisting Renault in solving fundamental design flaws in their F1 power unit. Much of this revolves around the engine block.

Now I knew RBR had been funding some aspects of trying to improve the engine, but all this adds to the dim glow of Renault. Not only could they not improve their engine, RBR a non engine manufacturer spent the money to improve it, and they resisted and ignored their advice. I would love nothing more than to shove that article down the RBR hating brigade I've seen on so many other F1 websites. Those fools have all sided with Renault, hate RBR passionately and want them gone from the sport. Never mind information such as this that is now coming out.

Anyhoo, I really hope this true. Now we need to get the engine rules relaxed ever more so that teams can tinker and modify to have the chance to really catch up. Not this 3-4 year death sentence they face. Give them 100 tokens, heck get rid of tokens and just let them have 5-6 engines in a year. Then they can introduce a brand new designed engine 5-6 times a year.

[rodders47 2]

I see this as a stepping stone for RBR for say 2016. RBR will develop their own ERS system using the unbranded Renault ICE , and because it is unbranded what would there be to stop RBR from having and using tokens to upgrade the ICE like other manufacturers, because presumably RBR would be classed as a PART Power Unit Manufacturer and they have the guys from Ilmor on their side , or working for them, so they could use all the castings etc from Renault and develop the guts of the ICE/Turbo's etc....

Now this I want to see. With all the talent at RBR and the ability to BUY extra talent, the mind boggles as to the outcome...

[senna 4 eva 0]

POWERED BY REDBULL,I ask if redbull get a Renault ice only or any other ice for that matter unbranded of course.then complete the rest of power unit themselves then re brand it as redbull does that class it a new manufacturer and therefore get maximum performance tokens as a first year manufacturer.I maybe silly but redbull have had a desire to build their own engines for a while.this maybe the first step albeit maybe or maybe not forced.as a energy drink company the best marketing they could have on those cars powered by redbull.

[Emmcee 0]

POWERED BY REDBULL,I ask if redbull get a Renault ice only or any other ice for that matter unbranded of course.then complete the rest of power unit themselves then re brand it as redbull does that class it a new manufacturer and therefore get maximum performance tokens as a first year manufacturer.I maybe silly but redbull have had a desire to build their own engines for a while.this maybe the first step albeit maybe or maybe not forced.as a energy drink company the best marketing they could have on those cars powered by redbull.

G'day mate and welcome to the forum, you make a bloody good point. It's a "un-branded" engine so theoretically they could call it what they want and technically it IS a new manufacturer so full tokens would have to be applied, one would think anyway. These tokens are stupid anyway, it's like going to an arcade and going up to the counter to see if you have enough tickets to buy the grand prize.

[Emmcee 0]

I see this as a stepping stone for RBR for say 2016. RBR will develop their own ERS system using the unbranded Renault ICE , and because it is unbranded what would there be to stop RBR from having and using tokens to upgrade the ICE like other manufacturers, because presumably RBR would be classed as a PART Power Unit Manufacturer and they have the guys from Ilmor on their side , or working for them, so they could use all the castings etc from Renault and develop the guts of the ICE/Turbo's etc....

Now this I want to see. With all the talent at RBR and the ability to BUY extra talent, the mind boggles as to the outcome...

Yeah well this is a good point also.

[senna 4 eva 0]

I agree the tokens are stupid.i wouldn't be surprised if redbull had this plan all along there are so many reasons why.advertising it works its got us talking.redbull have employed guys to work with Renault they may know how to reduce the hp gap and reliability issues already just need a lot of tokens.who knows.but amongst all the quit threats Horner did say all redbull employees would keep there jobs as redbull had other projects ie build a power unit redbull bull aren't that dumb.thy would have known for a long time that after 4 straight championships that no one else was ever going to give them a powerunit.

[senna 4 eva 0]

I agree the tokens are stupid.i wouldn't be surprised if redbull had this plan all along there are so many reasons why.advertising it works its got us talking.redbull have employed guys to work with Renault they may know how to reduce the hp gap and reliability issues already just need a lot of tokens.who knows.but amongst all the quit threats Horner did say all redbull employees would keep there jobs as redbull had other projects ie build a power unit redbull bull aren't that dumb.thy would have known for a long time that after 4 straight championships that no one else was ever going to give them a powerunit.

[senna 4 eva 0]

I agree the tokens are stupid.i wouldn't be surprised if redbull had this plan all along there are so many reasons why.advertising it works its got us talking.redbull have employed guys to work with Renault they may know how to reduce the hp gap and reliability issues already just need a lot of tokens.who knows.but amongst all the quit threats Horner did say all redbull employees would keep there jobs as redbull had other projects ie build a power unit redbull bull aren't that dumb.thy would have known for a long time that after 4 straight championships that no one else was ever going to give them a powerunit.

[Emmcee 0]

It's not just the championships, redbull still has the best chassis, even now and Mexico was a classic example. Look at how Ricciardo was able to loose bottas through the twisty sections and build enough gap to keep him ahead during the massive straight with Drs. With that chassis and the power to boot, they will win again. Redbull said months ago they wanted to build there own engine and that was them throwing it out there to see the response.

[senna 4 eva 0]

There's no doubting the rbr chassis and areo.

[KoolMonkey 0]

If RBR can spend tokens on their unbranded engines, this is great news indeed. Because I very get the feeling they know what to do, to at least make some improvements. Renault look clueless.

[Emmcee 0]

If I were redbull, I would've tried to coax Nissan or nismo into the sport a few years back and promote Nissan.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Fantasy for Nismo. As much as I'd like it to happen, it never will.

Nissan maybe. Not sure why they partnered with Infiniti. Yes I know they are Nissan but Red Bull's market is young people and Infiniti is not a brand of car young people drive.

VW or Audi would be just been perfect. Won't happen now. Probably never. So where does that leave them.

Ford maybe. But Ford has aligned itself with Monster, Ken Block etc. So that rules them out.

Doesn't really leave many options at the end of the day. Lamborghini would rock my world if their name was in F1. Lamborghini Red Bull. Hell yes. Has the sex appeal for sure. And then they could still hookup with VW/Audi on the engine side of things without VW's name being in the mix.

[Emmcee 0]

Or even Porsche

[KoolMonkey 0]

Sure that would be ok too. But Porsche still has that image in my view of a middle aged balding rich guy shagging some 20 something airhead. Not sure that connects with the young crowd. Lamboghini as the sex appeal factor, Porsche kind of doesn't.

[Emmcee 0]

Maybe not, but they build better road cars than lambo or Ferrari IMO, they handle way better id prefer a Porsche over a lambo or ferrari way more tuning options. Would've been sick if Porsche decided to start there own works team in f1 and signed webber to that deal instead of WEC.