The Swap

[Emmcee 0]

WE, and I repeat WE cause I succinctly remember how me and others tally up the points from Kimi vs Alonso 2005 ending up how Kimi actually would've ended up ahead in points, from Kimi not retiring to 2nd places to Alonso to 2nd places, to the point you actually agreed with us. Are you not listening to anything we say Webric???

I said that to keep the peace but since you want to bring it up here we go:

2005 Kimi vs Alonso

Australia

F-13th/3rd-6pts

K-10th/8th-1pt

Malaysia

F-1st/1st-16pts (1pole,1win)

K-6th/9th-1pt

Bahrain

F-1st/1st-26pts (2poles,2wins)

K-9th/3rd-7pts

Imola

F-2nd/1st-36pts (2,poles,3wins)

K-1st/dnf-7pts (1pole)

Spain

F-3rd/2nd-44pts (2poles,3wins)

K-1st/1st-17pts (2poles,1win)

Monaco

F-2nd/4th-49pts (2poles,3wins)

K-1st/1st-27pts (3poles,2wins)

Nurburgring

F-6th/1st-59pts (2poles,4wins)

K-2nd/dnf-27pts (3poles,4wins)

Canada

F-3rd/dnf-59pts (2poles,4wins)

K-7th/1st-37pts (3poles,3wins)

United States

F-6th/dnf-59pts (2poles,4wins)

K-2nd/dnf-37pts (3poles,3wins)

France

F-1st/1st-69pts (3poles,5wins)

K-13th/2nd-45pts (3poles,3wins)

Britain

F-1st/2nd-77pts (4poles,5wins)

K-12th/3rd-51pts (3poles,3wins)

Germany

F-3rd/1st-87pts (4poles,6wins)

K-1st/dnf-51pts (4poles,3wins)

Hungary

F-6th/11th-87pts (4poles,6wins)

K-4th/1st-61pts (4poles,4wins)

Turkey

F-3rd/2nd-95pts (4poles,6wins)

K-1st/1st-71pts (5poles,5wins)

Italy

F-2nd/2nd-103pts (4poles,6wins)

K-11th/4th-76pts (5poles,5wins)

Belgium

F-4th/2nd-111pts (4poles,6wins)

K-2nd/1st-86pts (5poles,6wins)

Brazil

F-1st/3rd-117pts (5poles,6wins)

K-5th/2nd-94 pts (5poles,6wins)

Japan

F-16th/3rd-123pts (5poles,6wins)

K-17th/1st-104pts (5poles,7wins)

China

F-1st/1st-133pts (6poles,7wins)

K-3rd/2nd-112pts (5poles,7wins)

So in total

Alonso-133 (6poles,7wins,1dnf)

Raikkonen-112 (5poles,7wins,3dnf)

Even if you give two wins to kimi to equal dnf's with one of alonso, he still falls short by one point. Now do you beleive me? I'll give you fastest laps as kimi probably had all of them but that's it bro. It was impossible for kimi to win the title, you can talk about penalties but the fact of reality is he got them.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Kvyat is arrogant and that's part of the reason he was replaced. The Sochi bumper car show was just the final push needed for Marko to do the swap now, instead of at the end of the year.

I am however still not sold on Ferrari and Merc hovering, wanting so badly to sign up little Max. Ferrari have NOT ever signed someone some young and always go with experience. Max is no different.

Where is this interest? Or does it only exist in the context of contracts and his Dad I wonder. If he really wanted to drive for Merc or Ferrari, he would signed up. I suspect it was all just a game to get him into RBR quicker.

I don't see Max doing any better than Kvyat. And I see him as being just as arrogant if not more. I really hope he doesn't muck up others races from no one. No one likes a crasher who just knocks people out randomly.

This probably won't be helping Ricci as it's turmoil in the team, but he seems settled, so hopefully can just focus on ahead and get some results.

[Emmcee 0]

That's right because didn't max have an option who to sign with before coming to f1? But he decided to stay with Redbull or something like that

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I said that to keep the peace but since you want to bring it up here we go:

Even if you give two wins to kimi to equal dnf's with one of alonso, he still falls short by one point. Now do you beleive me? I'll give you fastest laps as kimi probably had all of them but that's it bro. It was impossible for kimi to win the title, you can talk about penalties but the fact of reality is he got them.

You say things to keep the peace.

You have conveniently chose to not tally up the point for the dnf's, that was the crux of the matter. Now be a good boy and go ahead, you've come so far. Then I'll correctly tally up the points for ya

[KoolMonkey 0]

Plus there are the point differences too. If Kimi retired whilst leading and heading for a probably victory, and his car fails, that means he didn't just lose say -10 points and Alonso got +10, it means you'd have to calculate it as Kimi +10 and Alonso +8 or +6. So the swing is always more than just the points given for a victory alone.

[Emmcee 0]

You say things to keep the peace.

You have conveniently chose to not tally up the point for the dnf's, that was the crux of the matter. Now be a good boy and go ahead, you've come so far. Then I'll correctly tally up the points for ya

You say things to keep the peace.

You have conveniently chose to not tally up the point for the dnf's, that was the crux of the matter. Now be a good boy and go ahead, you've come so far. Then I'll correctly tally up the points for ya

You didn't even read my post did you? I posted how many dnf's each driver had and it's also impossible to say exactly where they would've finished because they didn't so how you tally up those points if that's what your indicating? Kimi had 3 dnf's and alonso one, if you even bothered to read my post, you will see I said to change two of kimi's dnf's to wins and alonso not score a single point for those two extra wins, kimi would still fall short by a point. There's no correcting points or nothing mate, there 100% correct and if that's all you have left to try defend your issue with, your toast.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Plus there are the point differences too. If Kimi retired whilst leading and heading for a probably victory, and his car fails, that means he didn't just lose say -10 points and Alonso got +10, it means you'd have to calculate it as Kimi +10 and Alonso +8 or +6. So the swing is always more than just the points given for a victory alone.

Thats what I implied, and its been already done for him to see

[Emmcee 0]

Iam aware of that and that's what I did and you also have to take it into account to alonso also, with all possible scenarios that fair, kimi still looses by 1 point. Simple as that, I can post who got most seconds and thirds of you like but you can't give a driver points for something they didn't do, penalties of course would've hurt kimi's chances but he got the penalties so they have to be taken into account go actually starting and finishing positions, otherwise we could make up any scenarios in your head. So kimi finished 21 points behind alonso which back in those days was 2 wins and an eight position, I was fair and add 20 points for the two extra dnf's that kimi got over alonso so it makes them fair on one dnf each and that's IF kimi won those two extra races Iam giving him to, he still fell one point short. I've showed all the working and who finished where with what so are you going to agree that kimi had no realistic possibility to win the 2005 title?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

That wasnt the point. The point was it is ridiculous to say Ric beat Kvyat when the points reflect otherwise

[Emmcee 0]

see difference here is 3 points, now I told you I don't how many times that I gave kimi 20 points for those two extra dnf's providing he could actually win those races and alonso score nothing,he still fell short, where you take away just one of Ricciardo's dnf's and what are the odds he would score 3 points? Quite high, so give Ricciardo those 3 and he wins on count back, I've researched it all, I could even include Ricciardo's average points per race and I'll think you'll find it's over the 3 required points, not to mention he was faster all year, scored more bulkier points than kvyat when he did score and when both cars were trouble free 9/10 times he was ahead. So what's your answer to that brad? I have no issue but I've shown proof and workings of proof and there's still "yeah but this,yeah but that" nothing bro, it's all there to see. You bag kvyat as a driver requiring "spacial awareness" and I can tell you,he wouldn't have even won a karting race in a competitive series if he didn't have loads of that, then you want him to be some super driver to beat Ricciardo wtf?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Webric. We all agree Ric is better than Kvyat in racecraft, but thru Kvyats consistency was beaten. But the same can also be said with Vettel vs Ric. You have to apply the same criteria to both

[Emmcee 0]

That's correct but the points in both situations tell and make a totally different story to one another, you have to also take into account that Vettel would had this car built around him, that is fact, any team who has a 4x champ would do anything he says to keep him for starters, then you have to take into account how long Vettel has been there, knows how everything works and how every body works, Ricciardo had to learn all of this in a short time aswell as get up to speed with the new car,new regs and dealing with a 4x champion as your teammate and reading every headline before the season that your going to get smoked, all Vettel had to worry about was beating dan and before the season he probably thought he would, yet he rose above all that and not only beat Vettel by a measly 3 points, he beat him by over 60,he dominated him, reguardless of dnf's or failures, the outcome wouldn't have been any different, except almost certain with a reduced points gap. That's the difference you have to take into account on these situations. Yeah you could say kvyat had to learn quickly to, but the second year brought new challenges for Ricciardo that also get over looked, he had to deal with being a team leader for the first time in a championship team, that's huge, then push development in the required direction and try remain competitive and fight of a very quick kvyat at the same time suffering car issues aswell. That's how I take the situation into account and kvyat came home strong last year but Ricciardo almost closed that points gap in race race and that's what I was saying about scoring more bigger points when he actually did make it to the end.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

That's correct but the points in both situations tell and make a totally different story to one another, you have to also take into account that Vettel would had this car built around him, that is fact, any team who has a 4x champ would do anything he says to keep him for starters, then you have to take into account how long Vettel has been there, knows how everything works and how every body works, Ricciardo had to learn all of this in a short time aswell as get up to speed with the new car,new regs and dealing with a 4x champion as your teammate and reading every headline before the season that your going to get smoked, all Vettel had to worry about was beating dan and before the season he probably thought he would, yet he rose above all that and not only beat Vettel by a measly 3 points, he beat him by over 60,he dominated him, reguardless of dnf's or failures, the outcome wouldn't have been any different, except almost certain with a reduced points gap. That's the difference you have to take into account on these situations. Yeah you could say kvyat had to learn quickly to, but the second year brought new challenges for Ricciardo that also get over looked, he had to deal with being a team leader for the first time in a championship team, that's huge, then push development in the required direction and try remain competitive and fight of a very quick kvyat at the same time suffering car issues aswell. That's how I take the situation into account and kvyat came home strong last year but Ricciardo almost closed that points gap in race race and that's what I was saying about scoring more bigger points when he actually did make it to the end.

No, the new regulations made things totally new, the end result being that Ric didnt have to adjust from a high downforce car to what we have today

[Emmcee 0]

Yes he did. He drove a car prior to 2014 regulation changes, his first race was Silverstone 2011, I don't know what you mean by that. Did you know he beat vettel's 2009 Abu Dhabi pole time by nearly 2 seconds two days after the Grand Prix at the young drivers test, in almost identicle conditions and track conditions using vettel's car.

[Sakae 0]

This subject has been touched upon so many times, I've lost count, yet Vettel's detractors seems forever sold on their very narrow point of view that Vettel is cr*p, and DR is king of the hill. Change of technology in 2014, reliability issues, lack of track time, 4 WDC, personal issues, tiredness of media attacks, bullying in the front of TV cameras, etc., none of that counts and seems fair to them. One standard for evaluation of Vettel in 2014, another standard for DR in 2015. That's how it works on the internet.

I've given up and stopped even trying to discuss this topic. On one forum which I visit occasionally as a passive visitor, I've taken a notice that almost all Vettel's fans left the forum in disgust over defamation language, and when reasoned, ultimately being shouted out of the door. Part of the problem could be, that senior people are trying to conduct a rational conversation with adolescents, and we know how that works.

[Emmcee 0]

I never said Vettel is crap, where did I say that? I just think he isn't as good as made out to be but that's my opinion.

[Sakae 0]

Vettel is a self-made man. No one made him better than he is, and his achievements, despite faced with all adversity, were not gifted, thus I am lacking understanding who is behind "good as made out to be". I am sorry, and I am trying to stay courteous, but it doesn't make sense to me at all. One conjecture after another regarding alleged superiority of his equipment, or internal favors, and total disregard of facts, that it was him, through his skills, who put his car in the front, consistently. He is as good as documented results.

[rodders47 2]

well vettell's crap is a whole lot better than Hammy's crap ROTFLMFAO

[Emmcee 0]

Vettel is a self-made man. No one made him better than he is, and his achievements, despite faced with all adversity, were not gifted, thus I am lacking understanding who is behind "good as made out to be". I am sorry, and I am trying to stay courteous, but it doesn't make sense to me at all. One conjecture after another regarding alleged superiority of his equipment, or internal favors, and total disregard of facts, that it was him, through his skills, who put his car in the front, consistently. He is as good as documented results.

Yeah ok lol.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I never said Vettel is crap, where did I say that? I just think he isn't as good as made out to be but that's my opinion.

You can't be a 4xchamp by being good, you have to exceptional. You can bend the laws of merit like that. Vettel is a special anomoly of his generation

[Sakae 0]

If you believe or not, but we have people in media, who together with one driver are able to state with the straight face, that Vettel lucked into his positions and wins. No wonder that fans are confused.

[Emmcee 0]

He just dominated the blown diffuser era, he is yet to do the same in this era. He has done well at Ferrari already but he is not winning like he used to and wouldn't matter if he was still at Redbull or where he is now, it wouldn't be the same as its a different era now. He also has never ever had a bad car, when has he ever not had a car capable of winning or being quite competitive? Never, that's another reason why I think he went to Ferrari, to build something succeful like most previous champions did, then no doubt you can't critise his talent. He is fast but is he faster than Schumacher in his prime? I don't think so, senna? No, I cheer for Vettel now, purely because he is the best chance of spoiling Mercedes wins and get gutted when he retires as its basically a predictable race from then on out. Like I said, dominated the previous era but this era he can't, which is unfair in a way because every other champion (besides alonso and button as there not competitive ATM)in the past has never had to face opposition your not allowed to catch so it's an era that won't work in his favour.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

He just dominated the blown diffuser era, he is yet to do the same in this era. He has done well at Ferrari already but he is not winning like he used to and wouldn't matter if he was still at Redbull or where he is now, it wouldn't be the same as its a different era now. He also has never ever had a bad car, when has he ever not had a car capable of winning or being quite competitive? Never, that's another reason why I think he went to Ferrari, to build something succeful like most previous champions did, then no doubt you can't critise his talent. He is fast but is he faster than Schumacher in his prime? I don't think so, senna? No, I cheer for Vettel now, purely because he is the best chance of spoiling Mercedes wins and get gutted when he retires as its basically a predictable race from then on out. Like I said, dominated the previous era but this era he can't, which is unfair in a way because every other champion (besides alonso and button as there not competitive ATM)in the past has never had to face opposition your not allowed to catch so it's an era that won't work in his favour.

Are u serious?

[Sakae 0]

Are u serious?

Thank you. I have been actually not as much afraid to ask that question, but hearing the answer later on.

[Emmcee 0]

ill explain I mean his not winning in the sense he did at Redbull therefore his start to win percentage is taking a massive whack ATM, that's what I meant. I thought the dummy spits and child like behaviour back in the day would minimise fans, they must have forgot. These same fans who most likely complain about teens in today's society.