Mosley Exposed

[Autumnpuma 0]

This is an article from pitpass.com. Paul Stoddart exposes the truths about how Max Mosley circumvented the Concorde Agreement to push through his engine rules and also explains why the Torro Rosso (Minardi) v10 is perfectly legal...

....and the v8 is not.

It's long, but a must-read. After I've digested this, I'll post my thoughts on it:

Pitpass.com: Max-ed Out

If the link doesn't work, just hit pitpass.com and look for the article "Max-ed Out".

[Yoda McFly 1]

Still reading, but my initial response to "Max Exposed" ....

Aaahhhhh!!! Damn, I don't want to see his "junk!!!!"

[cavallino 2]

Stoddart How I wish I could believe a word that liar says, but I'd rather believe Max than this loser. He's had to become a scribe has he after his airline went bust?

Toro Rosso are not Minardi. Different principles apply, they have no right to use V10s.

[nojvnof1 0]

Top read there, Stoddy calling it as he sees it as usual, great stuff.

How I wish I could believe a word that liar says, but I'd rather believe Max than this loser

How is he lying? He's providing factual evidence from no less a document than the Concorde Agreement, and according to the sections he highlights, the rules were not brought in legally!

[cavallino 2]

The Concorde agreement was made public a while ago, I have been really surprised there have been no great revelations. I do remember reading that a lot of it is basically obsolete now as things have changed so much. From what he says, Max did get unanimous agreement, and Paul Stoddart got his wad of cash for his team. Good riddance, maybe I should send him a few dollars if that will keep him out of the sport. The money that was spent would have been spent anyway, the one billion figure is rubbish. Cosworth made a competitive V8 in a fraction of the cost of the big teams, which means that most of the investment that the big teams made was a lot of money for very little gain. i.e. the shift to V8s hasn't cost money, the quest for performance and the large amount of money the big manufacturers are willing to spend has been spent. Cosworth made a competitive V8 for Williams for 20 million - that's nowhere close to a billion is it?

How much do you want to bet his next article will be about how Ferrari are destroying the sport?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Cosworth made a competitive V8 in a fraction of the cost of the big teams, which means that most of the investment that the big teams made was a lot of money for very little gain. i.e. the shift to V8s hasn't cost money, the quest for performance and the large amount of money the big manufacturers are willing to spend has been spent. Cosworth made a competitive V8 for Williams for 20 million - that's nowhere close to a billion is it?

Where do you get this info, i read Cosworth together with Merc spent 100 mil (f1racing mag). Stoddart won't be bias and lie in an article like this, that would make him a complete fool in the eyes of his peers, as they know the truth.

I find the article a very insightful look into the politics of F1....good Sh#t

lovely stuff....

[cavallino 2]

Which article? I have all the latest issues and I donb't remember reading anything like that or do you mean the latest issue, which hasn't come out here, yet?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Which article? I have all the latest issues and I donb't remember reading anything like that or do you mean the latest issue, which hasn't come out here, yet?

I'm talking about the Concorde Article by Stod...

I might be slightly confused with my source, f1racing Feb issue, (i know this sound convenient), but i read Renault spent 20mil and Mercedes and Cosworth slightly over 100 mil.....

[cavallino 2]

I'm talking about the Concorde Article by Stod...

I might be slightly confused with my source, f1racing Feb issue, (i know this sound convenient), but i read Renault spent 20mil and Mercedes and Cosworth slightly over 100 mil.....

Cosworth don't have 100 million to spend. You're confused about your information I'm afraid, Renault as I have pointed out in the past have a budget very close to Ferrari's (look for a thread entitled team budgets and sponsorship where I quoted some sources). Cosworth have a far smaller engine budget, basically financed by what William have been paying them, maybe with some investment from their side from revenue from other series, since they'd want to be in F1 for the prestige. Still an order of magnitude less than the big manufacturers and Ferrari.

[monza gorilla 1]

Big difference in the numbers.

Personally, I think the move to the V8 was utterly pointless, when the option of rev limiters and restrictors was available, except of course that Toyota would probably have had a bigger restrictor than most..................... Cav makes the valid point that the costs involved in developing a new engine would have been spent anyway on continuing development of the V10 units, therefore there was no extra cost to the teams. But neither was there a cost saving in that case, which sort of buggers up Mr Mosley's statements. Anyway, Max is a lawyer, and I wouldn't trust a lawyer as far as I could spit a rat. Stoddy is an Australian Arthur Daley and although I don't believe everything that he writes, I'm also sure that he knows a lot more than I do about the machinations involved.

[Karta 0]

Well, its his side of the story...i am pretty sure there are variations from real truth in it. Same way i would expect such variations from Max side of the story. I do not trust any of them (FIA or Team leaders) to give honest overview of events.

[Autumnpuma 0]

From an engineering point-of-view, there was very little the manufacturers could do to the lastest v10 engines. As Paul explained, it was near the end of it's development. A stabilization of engine rules would lead to a 'plateau' of sorts being reached in development--resulting in lowered costs and stabilizing speeds.

I believe Paul is correct in every singe statement he made in this article. He's out of the sport and he is frustrated by the politics of it. He has every reason to be a 'whistle-blower' on the whole thing. A simple motivation that makes his statements believable.

The interesting part of the article that I'm still churning around in my brain concerns the manufacturers. Stoddy is correct that they objected to the v8 formula and were about to make a big stink, then they suddenly backed off and accepted a huge R&D hit for the v8 development. I'm wondering why? What possible motivation would the manufacturers have to accept this? They were holding all the cards, legally speaking. Max was acting in direct opposition to the Concorde Agreement and the manufacturers had him...then let him go...

As Stoddy says, that explains the v10 clause for Minardi and that explains why Torro Rosso is allowed to keep the engines. The v10's are the only legal engine stipulated in the Concorde Agreement. Keep in mind that Kolles at Midland was the biggest objector to the v10's of Torro Rosso..then he recently turned around and stated that if he didn't get a v8 deal for '07, he'd run v10's. Nobody argued with that and, indeed, the manufacturers (Merc) have stepped up to give him the v8's he wanted...think about that...it seems a bit like they were saying "OK, Kolles, you got us. The v10's are legal. But you really shouldn't rock the boat, so we'll give you a supply of v8's--just keep your mouth shut".

[monza gorilla 1]

Very murky waters, but I'm not going to puzzle over it tonight. It's time for an early night.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Very murky waters, but I'm not going to puzzle over it tonight. It's time for an early night.

Enjoy, Russ

[Jean Todt 4]

Big difference in the numbers.

Cav makes the valid point that the costs involved in developing a new engine would have been spent anyway on continuing development of the V10 units, therefore there was no extra cost to the teams. But neither was there a cost saving in that case, which sort of buggers up Mr Mosley's statements. Anyway, Max is a lawyer, and I wouldn't trust a lawyer as far as I could spit a rat. Stoddy is an Australian Arthur Daley and although I don't believe everything that he writes, I'm also sure that he knows a lot more than I do about the machinations involved.

..i dont agree with you and cav man! cos, v8 is a completely different animal compared with v10s...since most of the teams were already familiar with the v10s they didnt need to put too much of money, effort and time if they continued with v10s. as for the v8s, they needed to develop a new engine, crankshaft(latter, balance it), gear box due to higher revs, then a whole new engine cover, tighter aerodynamics in the rear parts(which includes engin cover), then different suspension at the rear and new engine bed(or what ever they call it in f1) to counter more vibrations etc etc...they might have spent a little on developing the v8 engine, but they would suerly spent lotsa money on adapting the rest of the car to the new engine!

This is an article from pitpass.com. Paul Stoddart exposes the truths about how Max Mosley circumvented the Concorde Agreement to push through his engine rules and also explains why the Torro Rosso (Minardi) v10 is perfectly legal...

....and the v8 is not.

It's long, but a must-read. After I've digested this, I'll post my thoughts on it.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php

that link does not work from yesterday!!!!Pitpass

PHP/Database Error encountered - Unable to generate page

ERROR - No article id value passed to script

[cavallino 2]

..i dont agree with you and cav man! cos, v8 is a completely different animal compared with v10s...since most of the teams were already familiar with the v10s they didnt need to put too much of money, effort and time if they continued with v10s. as for the v8s, they needed to develop a new engine, crankshaft(latter, balance it), gear box due to higher revs, then a whole new engine cover, tighter aerodynamics in the rear parts(which includes engin cover), then different suspension at the rear and new engine bed(or what ever they call it in f1) to counter more vibrations etc etc...they might have spent a little on developing the v8 engine, but they would suerly spent lotsa money on adapting the rest of the car to the new engine!

There is no engine bed afaik, they directly bolt it onto the chassis. As for the other stuff, obviously Cosworth did it for far less, so the opther teams could also have had a competitive V8 for much less.

[Autumnpuma 0]

There is no engine bed afaik, they directly bolt it onto the chassis. As for the other stuff, obviously Cosworth did it for far less, so the opther teams could also have had a competitive V8 for much less.

True, but you aren't addressing the fact that however cheaply Cosworth does it, the development of a v8 is far more expensive than fine-tuning the established v10. Hell, man, it would be about 40 (US dollars) to make the v10's into Toro Rosso restricted lumps! The objective of the v8 was not to cut costs.

[cavallino 2]

It wasn't, but to say that the money would not have been spent if we had used if we had gone with rev restricted V8s is ridiculous. The money has been spent, and it hasn't helped much - the Cosworth engine is not bad at all. You can call that a form of cost cutting. Anyway throwing that 1 billion figure around is just silly.

[Autumnpuma 0]

It wasn't, but to say that the money would not have been spent if we had used if we had gone with rev restricted V8s is ridiculous. The money has been spent, and it hasn't helped much - the Cosworth engine is not bad at all. You can call that a form of cost cutting. Anyway throwing that 1 billion figure around is just silly.

A very cynical view and possibly not correct (I assume you meant rev-limited v10s). The development cost of devising a whole new engine formula is far greater than the cost of continuing the v10 development program. There is a finite amount of fine-tuning that can go into ANY engine and the v10 was approaching the end of it's 'life'. Costs were already leveling off on the v10.

The billion figure (for all manufacturers aggregate, developing the v8) might be correct, but I've not seen any official numbers, and I doubt the reporters have either. Just one more instance of sensationalism, I suppose. The true figure is certainly higher than if we had stayed with the v10 formula.

The logical solution would have been to restrict all v10's in the same manner as the Toro Rosso until '08 and introduce the v8 formula then. It would have spread the cost of developing a v8 over a span of two years instead of one.

Here's the new link to the article, but if it moves again, just hit pitpass.com and look for the article called "Max-ed Out"

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_fea...es_art_id=28772

[cavallino 2]

So Cosworth developed a decent V8 for 20 million, we can assume that as being more or less the base cost to get a competitive V8. Anything spent over that gives exponentially less gain, and effectively the cost to develop a V8 was only 20 million, the rest is purely a spending war - they had the money to spend so they spent it.

[Autumnpuma 0]

So Cosworth developed a decent V8 for 20 million, we can assume that as being more or less the base cost to get a competitive V8. Anything spent over that gives exponentially less gain, and effectively the cost to develop a V8 was only 20 million, the rest is purely a spending war - they had the money to spend so they spent it.

Cosworth already had the v8 formula developed, as they've been using it in ChampCar for a few years. They only had to modify that. Given that this is the case, I wouldn't use Cosworth as the benchmark. They were already a few steps ahead. If you look at Cosworth's total spending over the life of it's v8 program, you would see that it's probably the same as the manufacturers.

As for your statement about 'having money to spend so they spent it'...that seems inaccurate. Renault and Ferrari, two of the best v8s currently out there (reliable and fast) certainly had strict budget restraints; I don't see either company shelling out money 'just to spend it'. Merc, I feel, is likely the same, budget-wise, as it's really not Merc incurring the development costs. Toyota, BMW and Honda probably have spent the most, but I would find it hard to believe that BMW, after starting a whole new team, would spend money 'just to spend it'.

That leaves the two Japanese companies. Cav, your statement about 'spending money because they had money to spend' would seem to be proven by Honda and Toyota. Unless you know Japanese culture. The Japanese will spend astronomical amounts, but never needlessly or simply because they 'have it'. Their spending is logical, if excessive.

Alot of words on my part to say that I disagree, eh?

[Player(1) 0]

I think the tire rule's last year just show's the true nature of F1 team's. They couldnt change the tire's so they developed new tool's to change the pressure's during the pit stop's.