Ferrari's Upper Hand Since 2000

[schumigo2hell 0]

2007

-----

I believe the Spy Scandal is large enough to cause worries/distractions at Mclaren camp that hindering the team performance.

And this is caused by Ferrari's ex-employee in which Mclaren has no control over the situation but Ferrari has. Ferrari should have refrained Stepney from accessing highly confidential when he expressed his discontent in Ferrari camp early this year. However, Ferrari let Stepney to cause misfortune to others.

In addition to that, this year, Ferrari is already enjoying a closer relationship with Bridgestone than the others.

2006

-----

In 2006 winter testing, Flavio Briatore pointed out that Ferrari was the one who made the complaint that led to the mass damper being dropped by FIA.

2005

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Ferrari did not honour the Gentleman Agreement of 30 test days. Ferrari tested more than 70 days in 2005 while others only tested 30 days or less. Sensibly, Ferrari's development was almost 100% more than their rivals and this benefited their future development.

2004

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Mchelin-shoed teams continued to suffer from the sudden change of ruling in tyre specs.

2003

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Mchelin-shoed teams suffered from the sudden change of ruling in tyre specs after Ferrari logged a complaint to FIA.

2000 - 2002

------------

After complaining about other teams using launch-devise in Suzuka 1999, apparently and subsequently, FIA allowed to use launch-device which saw most of the teams stalled on the grip except Ferrari.

[hattivatti 0]

I have been lurking around here reading the forums for some while now, but your post provoked me to register and post...

First of all by your nickname I can see that you obviously have a very neutral viewpoint towards the whole matter. Excellent start.

Secondly Ferrari has not been the only team filing in complaints...what did McLaren do regarding the floor of Ferrari (and also other teams)? They complained and got their way! Pretty similiar to the situation with mass dampers eh? Yes it is.

I agree Ferrari has done wrong by not sticking to the agreements on test-limits and so on, but your stand on this new scandal is simply unbelievable. I can't figure how you think McLaren got the documents, if they were not (at least one person working for and representing the team) involved. Stepney forced him to take the documents? Stepney brainwashed him? Secretly slipped the documents to Coughlans wife and told her to copy them? Come on, the man is the Chief designer of McLaren!

And this is caused by Ferrari's ex-employee in which Mclaren has no control over the situation but Ferrari has. Ferrari should have refrained Stepney from accessing highly confidential when he expressed his discontent in Ferrari camp early this year. However, Ferrari let Stepney to cause misfortune to others.

And this is caused by Ferrari's ex-employee in which Mclaren has no control over the situation but Ferrari has. Ferrari should have refrained Stepney from accessing highly confidential when he expressed his discontent in Ferrari camp early this year. However, Ferrari let Stepney to cause misfortune to others.

What??? McLaren has no control over Stepney, but they should have had control over Coughlan! Ferrari on the other hand pretty much knew Stepney might leave them, Stepney wasn't happy, but who would think he'd do something like that, he was moved to another job in hopes that he might be more satisfied.

What we know for sure is that Stepney and Coughlan are involved somehow. What we don't know for sure is how involved the management of McLaren is and how much they know...but we know you can't put blame on Ferrari as a team for this! Simply ridiculous! I wouldn't be surprised if FIA punished McLaren, as their Chief designer is involved. He would just hold the documents for fun? "I like looking at them, but I surely will not use them, I like stolen documents". Sure.

Your points do not make sense.

I wish the championship could be settled on track, but this thing is starting to cast a shadow too long over the season already...

[ykickamoocow 0]

Secondly Ferrari has not been the only team filing in complaints...what did McLaren do regarding the floor of Ferrari (and also other teams)? They complained and got their way! Pretty similiar to the situation with mass dampers eh? Yes it is.

Thats not exactly true. Wasnt it Ferrari that complained about the Michelin tyres afew years back and forced Michelin to change their tyre design.

[hattivatti 0]

They did. But what I am trying to say is, that every now and then there are complaints, done by Ferrari, McLaren and whoever...many teams do it. So I do not think it is fair to put blame on only one team.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I have been lurking around here reading the forums for some while now, but your post provoked me to register and post...

First of all by your nickname I can see that you obviously have a very neutral viewpoint towards the whole matter. Excellent start.

Secondly Ferrari has not been the only team filing in complaints...what did McLaren do regarding the floor of Ferrari (and also other teams)? They complained and got their way! Pretty similiar to the situation with mass dampers eh? Yes it is.

I agree Ferrari has done wrong by not sticking to the agreements on test-limits and so on, but your stand on this new scandal is simply unbelievable. I can't figure how you think McLaren got the documents, if they were not (at least one person working for and representing the team) involved. Stepney forced him to take the documents? Stepney brainwashed him? Secretly slipped the documents to Coughlans wife and told her to copy them? Come on, the man is the Chief designer of McLaren!

What??? McLaren has no control over Stepney, but they should have had control over Coughlan! Ferrari on the other hand pretty much knew Stepney might leave them, Stepney wasn't happy, but who would think he'd do something like that, he was moved to another job in hopes that he might be more satisfied.

What we know for sure is that Stepney and Coughlan are involved somehow. What we don't know for sure is how involved the management of McLaren is and how much they know...but we know you can't put blame on Ferrari as a team for this! Simply ridiculous! I wouldn't be surprised if FIA punished McLaren, as their Chief designer is involved. He would just hold the documents for fun? "I like looking at them, but I surely will not use them, I like stolen documents". Sure.

Your points do not make sense.

I wish the championship could be settled on track, but this thing is starting to cast a shadow too long over the season already...

welcome hattivatti, and thanks for the good points....

and to get a little bit more perspective of our "friend" schumiego2hell, read the "Mclaren stealing Ferrari secrets" thread, it's mind boggling....

[hattivatti 0]

I did and I was entertained. His posts obviously pour with objetivity.

[schumigo2hell 0]

Thats not exactly true. Wasnt it Ferrari that complained about the Michelin tyres afew years back and forced Michelin to change their tyre design.

It looks like you cannot recall the situation.

However, you can recall via the following link.

ttp://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=7319

Happy reading!

[Karta 0]

Schumitohell how did Briatore complain 2006 winter about Ferrari for mass dampers if the incident took place in 2006 summer?

2007 -- Actually catalyst been Mike Coughlan, send him thanks.

2005 -- Ferrari was not in the agreement so cant brake something you not in.

2003 -- Michelin tires were bending the rules kinda. You would be so over them if they had such advantage over Michelin.

2004 -- Sure Bridgestone loved how their far extensive prior knowledge became less useful. 2004 Ferrari was simply masterpiece is why they ruled, not the tires.

I wont even go to 2000-2002 part.

You just keep burying your credibility.

[Jean Todt 4]

Not exactly a fan of ferrari, but hate the way people still bitch about them without sold facts.

2007.

It is still too early to talk about the scandals, till someone is proved guilty.

If ferrari were really enjoying a closer relationship with Bridgestone, Hamilton wouldn't have been leading the championship. There were races where Ferrari showed that their cars were not yet perfectly suited to bridgestones all the time. These were the tracks in which Ferrari shod with Bridgestones have previously crushed their opponents. So they deliberately slowed inorder to look they are slow?

2006.

Yes, Flavio pointed that Ferrari complained about the Mass dampers, but Ferrari couldn't prove it was illegal. But it was Mclaren that took up the case later and proved it was illegal, regardless of what we fans think.

2005.

Ferrari had every right to dishonour the gentleman agreement. (I admit I was not comfortable with it at that moment, but later I realised they were right). Was there any other team that can be classified as a Top team using Bridgestones? Meanwhile, teams like Williams, Mclaren, and Renault benefited from each other by sharing tyre datas. Even Sauber was shod with Michelin which was literally a Ferrari B-Team. So Ferrari had every right to dishonour, but later when teams like Williams and Toyota switched back to Bridgestones, or in short, when competitive teams switched to bridgestones, Ferrari were quick to honour the agreement. But I guess, they did test extra three days durin winter. (correct me if I am wrong)

2004.

Bridgestone and Ferrari were able to prove the fact that Michelin tyres became wider as the race progressed, but the Tyres were inside the normal regulations before they began to wear out.

2003.

Michelins were simply class of their own in the hands of Mclaren and Renault, until Ferrari proved the above defect or irregularity.

2002.

Ferrari were able to perfect their Launch system. But you must also remember that their drivers had intense practice with such devices. Nothing wrong with it. Renault were able to better their launch system as seasons progressed.

[schumigo2hell 0]

"Secondly Ferrari has not been the only team filing in complaints...what did McLaren do regarding the floor of Ferrari (and also other teams)? They complained and got their way! Pretty similiar to the situation with mass dampers eh? Yes it is."

I only respect those who dare to lodge complaints and admit their actions. Like the Michelin tyre saga in 2003 and mass damper in 2006, Ferrari did not reveal their actions coupled with FIA assistance to protect Ferrari.

"I agree Ferrari has done wrong by not sticking to the agreements on test-limits and so on, but your stand on this new scandal is simply unbelievable. I can't figure how you think McLaren got the documents, if they were not (at least one person working for and representing the team) involved. Stepney forced him to take the documents? Stepney brainwashed him? Secretly slipped the documents to Coughlans wife and told her to copy them? Come on, the man is the Chief designer of McLaren!"

Don't you find it suspicious that making copies of confidential documents so carelessly?

"What??? McLaren has no control over Stepney, but they should have had control over Coughlan! Ferrari on the other hand pretty much knew Stepney might leave them, Stepney wasn't happy, but who would think he'd do something like that, he was moved to another job in hopes that he might be more satisfied."

You as well agree McLaren has no control over Stepney.

"What we know for sure is that Stepney and Coughlan are involved somehow. What we don't know for sure is how involved the management of McLaren is and how much they know...but we know you can't put blame on Ferrari as a team for this! Simply ridiculous! I wouldn't be surprised if FIA punished McLaren, as their Chief designer is involved. He would just hold the documents for fun? "I like looking at them, but I surely will not use them, I like stolen documents". Sure.

I would be happier if Ferrari has all Mclaren documents in Ferrari camp simply the two cars won't resemble each other. This will just screw up Ferrari development and could have suffered from allegation as Mclaren suffers currently.

"Your points do not make sense."

Sorry for expressing my own agrument, but hope someone could view the whole situation from other angles rather than following the press.

[schumigo2hell 0]

Schumitohell how did Briatore complain 2006 winter about Ferrari for mass dampers if the incident took place in 2006 summer?

For you to recall:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/55982

Tyres give Renault insight on damper ban

By Michele Lostia Monday, December 11th 2006, 12:34 GMT

Renault F1 chief Flavio Briatore has revealed that running on

Bridgestone tyres for the first time this month has given his team

insight into why Ferrari pushed for the mass damper system to be

banned this season.

According to Briatore, rivals Ferrari were unable to make the device

work due to the characteristics of the Bridgestone front tyres. This,

the Italian claims, has led to chain of events that ended with the FIA

banning the system altogether.

Renault began using the mass damper device at the end of the 2005

season, but mid-way through the 2006 season the FIA banned the system,

saying it operates as a movable aerodynamic device, which is forbidden

by the regulations.

While other teams were reported to have tried the mass damper system

as well, Renault were most affected by the ban, with director of

engineering Pat Symonds admitting recently that the removal of the

device cost his team in terms of lap times and development.

But now Briatore has revealed that winter testing on the Bridgestone

tyres has given Renault insight into why rivals Ferrari were unable to

work with the device - and he believes this in turn led to the

system's ban.

"Now we understand why they banned the mass damper all of a sudden

mid-season," Briatore told fans at the Bologna motor show. "This is

because it wouldn't work with Ferrari's Bridgestone tyres, as their

fronts are too wide."

The FIA has never revealed what information led to the decision to ban

the mass dampers, and Briatore initially accused McLaren and Ferrari

of pushing for the ban. McLaren boss Ron Dennis, however, has denied

it was his team that protested the device.

[Fed up 0]

Secondly Ferrari has not been the only team filing in complaints...what did McLaren do regarding the floor of Ferrari (and also other teams)? They complained and got their way! Pretty similiar to the situation with mass dampers eh? Yes it is.

This is being linked to the Spy scandal as Coughlan's affidavit appears to link the ferrari documents to Mclaren as far back as March. If true, It could be argued that Mclaren used 'inside' knowledge to lodge the protest.

[Shooting Star 0]

hattivatti, good post which I agree with.

Looking at the various accusations by the obviously neutral starter of this thread -

2000- 2002 - So what you're saying is that after Ferrari's complaint, everyone was allowed to use launching aids. And the problem with that is...?

2003 - 2004 - Most top teams switched over to Michelin and they clearly enjoyed a significant advantage. Ferrari stayed on Bridgestone rubber and suffered at times purely because of tires. It became pretty even when regulation changes took effect. Michelin were the ones playing a tad bit dirty. Ferrari were the only top team on Bridgestone and had no useful data coming in from other camps unlike Michelin who were using McLaren and Williams data to give their teams an advantage.

2005 - Ferrari were rendered impotent purely because of Bridgestone tires. And that agreement you mention didn't give as much as an advantage as you make it appear to have.

2006 - The mass damper was obviously an issue any team would bring up if their saw it on a rival car. Ferrari's innovations have come under scrutiny many a time. Its up to the FIA to deem something as legal or not.

2007 - So even when Ferrari documents are found with McLaren's Chief designer, you still find a way to make it sound as if Ferrari are making a mountain out of a molehill. Dipsh*t, imagine the hissy fit you'd be throwing had McLaren stuff been found with someone who happened to be wearing something scarlet, let alone a Chief Designer.

You are clearly the least biased person I've come across.

[schumigo2hell 0]

Not exactly a fan of ferrari, but hate the way people still bitch about them without sold facts.

2007.

It is still too early to talk about the scandals, till someone is proved guilty.

If ferrari were really enjoying a closer relationship with Bridgestone, Hamilton wouldn't have been leading the championship. There were races where Ferrari showed that their cars were not yet perfectly suited to bridgestones all the time. These were the tracks in which Ferrari shod with Bridgestones have previously crushed their opponents. So they deliberately slowed inorder to look they are slow?

Think it the other way round. What if all the teams are using Michelin? What will happen to Ferrari? You will get the answer by answering these questions yourself.

2006.

Yes, Flavio pointed that Ferrari complained about the Mass dampers, but Ferrari couldn't prove it was illegal. But it was Mclaren that took up the case later and proved it was illegal, regardless of what we fans think.

See the fact: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/55982.

2005.

Ferrari had every right to dishonour the gentleman agreement. (I admit I was not comfortable with it at that moment, but later I realised they were right). Was there any other team that can be classified as a Top team using Bridgestones? Meanwhile, teams like Williams, Mclaren, and Renault benefited from each other by sharing tyre datas. Even Sauber was shod with Michelin which was literally a Ferrari B-Team. So Ferrari had every right to dishonour, but later when teams like Williams and Toyota switched back to Bridgestones, or in short, when competitive teams switched to bridgestones, Ferrari were quick to honour the agreement. But I guess, they did test extra three days durin winter. (correct me if I am wrong)

Do you think Ferrari is a sporting team by dishonouring the gentlement agreement?

2004.

Bridgestone and Ferrari were able to prove the fact that Michelin tyres became wider as the race progressed, but the Tyres were inside the normal regulations before they began to wear out.

Don't forget that only BMW shown the exact irregularity in Hungary, it could be due to excessive damper setting.

2003.

Michelins were simply class of their own in the hands of Mclaren and Renault, until Ferrari proved the above defect or irregularity.

Don't forget that only BMW shown the exact irregularity in Hungary, it could be due to excessive damper setting.

2002.

Ferrari were able to perfect their Launch system. But you must also remember that their drivers had intense practice with such devices. Nothing wrong with it. Renault were able to better their launch system as seasons progressed.

Put it this way. You pushed for implementation/approval, then approved by FIA. Thereafter, all your rivals suffered from it, but you were just perfect. What would you conclude?

In addition, you must also remember that other drivers also had intense practise with such devices.

[Jean Todt 4]

The FIA has never revealed what information led to the decision to ban

the mass dampers, and Briatore initially accused McLaren and Ferrari

of pushing for the ban. McLaren boss Ron Dennis, however, has denied

it was his team that protested the device.

Bernie was one of the men who pointed that Mclaren was the one who complained. Mclaren themselves admitted indirectly and said that it is up to FIA to bring out the verdict.

Didn't Mclaren (and other teams) push for the Ban many innovations that Ferrari brought? It is because they were not able to use such innovations to the effect Ferrari did, but look at the wheel covers Ferrari introduced, even though fans find it illegal, other teams don't bitch about it, why? they were swift to simply copy it.

[schumigo2hell 0]

Bernie was one of the men who pointed that Mclaren was the one who complained. Mclaren themselves admitted indirectly and said that it is up to FIA to bring out the verdict.

Didn't Mclaren (and other teams) push for the Ban many innovations that Ferrari brought? It is because they were not able to use such innovations to the effect Ferrari did, but look at the wheel covers Ferrari introduced, even though fans find it illegal, other teams don't bitch about it, why? they were swift to simply copy it.

Please don't manipulate the quotes. Please include this:

According to Briatore, rivals Ferrari were unable to make the device

work due to the characteristics of the Bridgestone front tyres. This,

the Italian claims, has led to chain of events that ended with the FIA

banning the system altogether.

[Jean Todt 4]

2007. Yes, Ferrari may suffer initially, you must remember that Ferrari have wont world titles with Michelins. All Michelin teams shared datas, a team will be foolish not to exchage datas with a team like Ferrari.

2006. So what, look at my last post, If a team is not able to use an innovation brought in by their raival, they are quick to complain. It is like a man having two sons (son a, son b ), son B complaining that the other one is having an affair with the pretty neighbour because he was unsuccessful in attracting her pretty sister's attention.

2005.

Yes, Ferrari are sporting team who are very passionate in what ever activities they involve. Why would they have customers wait for two long years for cars they make?

2004.

Yes, a Michelin is still a Michelin. So why couldn't Michelin along with Willams prove your point?

2003.

Yes, a Michelin is still a Michelin. So why couldn't Michelin along with Willams prove your point?

2002.

I am not aware of the rules back then, obvously, so I do not want to argue about something I don't know. But I would like to ask this, " Why didnt other teams complain about Ferrari using this?"

[Jean Todt 4]

Please don't manipulate the quotes. Please include this:

According to Briatore, rivals Ferrari were unable to make the device

work due to the characteristics of the Bridgestone front tyres. This,

the Italian claims, has led to chain of events that ended with the FIA

banning the system altogether.

I manipulated this?

When did Flavio tell all this? it was only when he recieved his shipment of Bridgestones right?

Before that Flavio still didnt know why?

Yes, I do admit, that if they cant make it work to their advantage, they complain, as many teams did, especially this season.

[schumigo2hell 0]

2007. Yes, Ferrari may suffer initially, you must remember that Ferrari have wont world titles with Michelins. All Michelin teams shared datas, a team will be foolish not to exchage datas with a team like Ferrari.

2006. So what, look at my last post, If a team is not able to use an innovation brought in by their raival, they are quick to complain. It is like a man having two sons (son a, son b ), son B complaining that the other one is having an affair with the pretty neighbour because he was unsuccessful in attracting her pretty sister's attention.

2005.

Yes, Ferrari are sporting team who are very passionate in what ever activities they involve. Why would they have customers wait for two long years for cars they make?

2004.

Yes, a Michelin is still a Michelin. So why couldn't Michelin along with Willams prove your point?

2003.

Yes, a Michelin is still a Michelin. So why couldn't Michelin along with Willams prove your point?

2002.

I am not aware of the rules back then, obvously, so I do not want to argue about something I don't know. But I would like to ask this, " Why didnt other teams complain about Ferrari using this?"

Could you please include the quotes while you are replying? I don't know which one you are replying, thanks!

[Jean Todt 4]

Could you please include the quotes while you are replying? I don't know which one you are replying, thanks!

could you please stop typing your reply inside my post's quotes, because, When I reply to your post, I don't see anything typed there for me mark as quotes. It takes little common sense, as I have repliled to your post just like how you have typed. You just need to match them. My little nephiew can understand that.

Let me look at another thread where I can find some meaningful posts. You can sit on the stool and moan " ho, Ferrari are cheaters, Micheal parked the car in middle of the road, some one do some thing" etc. bye.

[Quiet One 15]

I am not going into the whole anti-ferrari issue (and I am one of the anti-ferrari members in here.) I just agree with abbas and hattivatti's in their criticism of the 2007 scandal as viewed by schumigo2hell.

The remaining points (previous seasons) I don't care about. I believe Ferrari was guilty on some and innocent in others, being their actual guilt the Ferrari "omert

[Fed up 0]

This is a very obvious open and shut case to me. Mclaren are guilty by association as the design engineer, being an employee of Mclaren F1, is effectively acting on behalf of the team.

The circumstances surrounding the discovery are puzzling as you say above, but that doesn't detract from the fact that an influential Mclaren employee was in the possession of very sensitive information from another team.

Mclaren do not have a leg to stand on, so to speak

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I am not going into the whole anti-ferrari issue (and I am one of the anti-ferrari members in here.) I just agree with abbas and hattivatti's in their criticism of the 2007 scandal as viewed by schumigo2hell.

The remaining points (previous seasons) I don't care about. I believe Ferrari was guilty on some and innocent in others, being their actual guilt the Ferrari "omert

[Quiet One 15]

What you don't know the Quiet One, is that it was the actions of Coughlan wife Trudy, who handed the documents over to the shop owner to make the copies with Ferrari confidentiality stamps all over it, and to digitize these documents. It was such a stupid move, she was'nt even present when the guy copied these docs.

Yes, I guessed those documents had some confidential seal all over them. That still indicates that they acetd unbelievably stupid. And still the photocopier person seems like a overly dedicated person to promptly notify ferrari. Of course, perhaps it is more common there than here Or maybe I just have not a high regard for peoples who make a living making photocopies...

[Jean Todt 4]

I am not going into the whole anti-ferrari issue (and I am one of the anti-ferrari members in here.) I just agree with abbas and hattivatti's in their criticism of the 2007 scandal as viewed by schumigo2hell.

The remaining points (previous seasons) I don't care about. I believe Ferrari was guilty on some and innocent in others, being their actual guilt the Ferrari "omert