32 replies to this topic

[medilloni]

A place for your good thoughts about those from your favourite motorsports that have put a smile on your face, inspired you, made you laugh or cry, made the sport a better place for you - doesn't matter about which branch of the sport... CART, F1, Indy, Sportscar racing, other formulas, karting, whatever you like.  

Try and post pics if you can, I'm a motorsport voyeur      


A favourite pic of two very special guys to me:
 candg.jpg   80.48K   7 downloads
Dan Gurney and Jim Clark.  Inspired me for some really simple reasons - both incredibly humble men and admired (possibly 'feared') each other for their ability, fiercely competitive.

When I look at this picture now... the drivers with open face helmets and no HANS devices, shoes and socks from Marks & Spencers, cars with low-tech spindly ani-roll bars and rubber drive shaft doughnuts that took your fingers off when fitting them... it was an incredibly easy sport to follow in all respects (technically, being able to see the driver working etc etc).  All it needs now is a comment from Steph about Jim Clark sat astride the exhaust pipes  


Jochen Rindt...
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The only driver to win the F1 championship posthumously.  Never really put my finger on why, but I was just in awe of this guy.  His technique looked a little more ragged than most, but it worked for him in the wet or dry, it never changed - Bernie Ecclestone said at the time that he was easily a match for Jackie Stewart.  




Of course, some of these thoughts could have been through rose tinteds.    


Cheers

Edited by medilloni, 13 August 2010 - 02:39 PM.

[Argento Reloaded]

Since I enjoyed many races and drivers performances I can recall this one as the first...

Pleasure!!!!!!

Attached Files

•  vill_schu_jere_1997_470150.jpg   25K   4 downloads

[medilloni]

Argento Reloaded, on 13 August 2010 - 02:39 PM, said:

Since I enjoyed many races and drivers performances I can recall this one as the first...

Pleasure!!!!!!

[BradSpeedMan]

medilloni, on 13 August 2010 - 02:26 PM, said:

Jochen Rindt...
rdt.jpg
rndt2.jpg
The only driver to win the F1 championship posthumously.  Never really put my finger on why, but I was just in awe of this guy.  His technique looked a little more ragged than most, but it worked for him in the wet or dry, it never changed - Bernie Ecclestone said at the time that he was easily a match for Jackie Stewart.  

read about this guy,.....he was rated very fast, he actually made the list of  the top 50 fast driver's  of alltime

[Pucky the Whale]

Thank you for making this thread.  I'll be the first to go non-F1, since I've only ever seen 30 or so grands prix in my lifetime!

I'll go in chronological order, and that starts with the late 90s and Greg Moore.



Moore...in his element, really.  A great speedway racer, something he attributed to the ice racing he had done when he was younger (the cars, at least then, were very slippery on the big ovals, making it so much harder than it looks.  Moore initially struggled, so he was advised to spend his winter racing on ice.  He did, and ended up as one of CART's greatest speedway racers).  Beyond that, the bird...something Moore did a lot, only to play with photographers.  He and Montoya were good friends; actually, he and the entire paddock were good friends.  He was a hard racer, brilliant car control, on McLaren-Mercedes' radar to replace D.C. for 2000 until he ultimately signed for Penske in CART, and an all-around great guy.  He was always smiling, always having fun, and brought a great bond among the drivers.  It was a hard hit for the community when he lost his life in 1999; Moore had only been in CART for four seasons, yet his 99 became the only number retired in the history of the sport.  That's how big of an impact he made, most of it off the circuit.



Then there's Alex Zanardi, the same era.  It's a shame F1 never worked for him, because he was such a joy to watch in CART.  His charge at the 1998 Long Beach Grand Prix, for me, was a bigger highlight than "the pass" at Laguna Seca in 1996, but then again, I wasn't watching live in 1996.  My memory could be wrong, but I feel as though he was one lap down at some point during that race.  Zanardi's story is told often, and I'm sure you all know what happened.  I can't even put the moment of him running those last 13 laps at the Lausitzring into words when he did in 2003.  Far cooler than any photo finish, any 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix, any of that.  A great moment.



On to Benny Parsons, who I never saw race, but had the honor of meeting.  Parsons won the NASCAR title in 1973, and retired in 1988.  He did, however, become a broadcaster at that time, spending over a decade with ESPN, before moving to NBC/TNT's coverage in 2001 until his death in 2007.  Parsons definitely represented the "older NASCAR," a very relaxed, low-key, friendly man with a great sense of humor and a love for everything.  Benny's attitude was just so admirable...simple, hard-working, and just so kind to everyone else.  I'm so glad I got to meet him; just a few years later, he was gone, losing a long battle with lung cancer.  It's hard to watch a NASCAR race without Benny's wit, enthusiasm, knowledge, and Bennyisms.  Just to hear him call one of his Jamie McMurray's wins this year, always pronouncing it "MacMary," would have been grand...



And then a modern one.  Shane Hmiel.  He's not your typical "good man," not at all.  Hmiel came to NASCAR in 2002 with a lot of promise.  He had great talent and an aggressive style, but was pegged to be the next "bad boy" due to his scrappy attitude and tendency to get into it with other drivers.  In 2003, Hmiel was suspended from NASCAR for testing positive for marijuana.  He returned in 2004, winning his first race in the Truck division, and signed on as a development driver for Dale Earnhardt, Jr. for the 2005 year.  After a solid start, Hmiel again failed a drug test, this time for both marijuana and cocaine, and was suspended indefinitely.  During his process to return to the sport, Hmiel failed a third test, and was permanently banned from the sport.  He hit rock bottom.  His father, a longtime mechanic in NASCAR, stated Hmiel was refusing help, laying on the couch all day feeling sorry for himself, gaining weight, letting his life go.  All talk about Hmiel died, and during that time, everything came together.  Hmiel has bipolar disorder; he didn't know that until 2008.  He "self-medicated" to deal with his condition after being misdiagnosed as a teenager and not knowing what was really going on.  Since the diagnosis, Hmiel's life has made a complete 180.  He's finally clean, and has returned to USAC, winning races across the country in open-wheel midgets.  In a few weeks, he'll make his Indy Lights debut at Chicago.  I believe in Shane.  I believe he's truly past his worst days and into his best; now with an understanding of himself and taking action to handle his condition appropriately.  I think he's a great story, I think he can raise a lot of awareness, and I don't think he's lost his talent.  It's unfortunate he threw it all away, but its really nice he has a new chance in the open-wheel world, with sights set on the Indy 500.  I hope he stays focused, keeps his life where it is now, and gets there.

Edited by Pucky the Whale, 13 August 2010 - 04:08 PM.

[medilloni]

Pucky the Whale, on 13 August 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

Thank you for making this thread.  I'll be the first to go non-F1, since I've only ever seen 30 or so grands prix in my lifetime!

I'll go in chronological order, and that starts with the late 90s and Greg Moore.



Moore...in his element, really.  A great speedway racer, something he attributed to the ice racing he had done when he was younger (the cars, at least then, were very slippery on the big ovals, making it so much harder than it looks.  Moore initially struggled, so he was advised to spend his winter racing on ice.  He did, and ended up as one of CART's greatest speedway racers).  Beyond that, the bird...something Moore did a lot, only to play with photographers.  He and Montoya were good friends; actually, he and the entire paddock were good friends.  He was a hard racer, brilliant car control, on McLaren-Mercedes' radar to replace D.C. for 2000 until he ultimately signed for Penske in CART, and an all-around great guy.  He was always smiling, always having fun, and brought a great bond among the drivers.  It was a hard hit for the community when he lost his life in 1999; Moore had only been in CART for four seasons, yet his 99 became the only number retired in the history of the sport.  That's how big of an impact he made, most of it off the circuit.



Then there's Alex Zanardi, the same era.  It's a shame F1 never worked for him, because he was such a joy to watch in CART.  His charge at the 1998 Long Beach Grand Prix, for me, was a bigger highlight than "the pass" at Laguna Seca in 1996, but then again, I wasn't watching live in 1996.  My memory could be wrong, but I feel as though he was one lap down at some point during that race.  Zanardi's story is told often, and I'm sure you all know what happened.  I can't even put the moment of him running those last 13 laps at the Lausitzring into words when he did in 2003.  Far cooler than any photo finish, any 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix, any of that.  A great moment.



On to Benny Parsons, who I never saw race, but had the honor of meeting.  Parsons won the NASCAR title in 1973, and retired in 1988.  He did, however, become a broadcaster at that time, spending over a decade with ESPN, before moving to NBC/TNT's coverage in 2001 until his death in 2007.  Parsons definitely represented the "older NASCAR," a very relaxed, low-key, friendly man with a great sense of humor and a love for everything.  Benny's attitude was just so admirable...simple, hard-working, and just so kind to everyone else.  I'm so glad I got to meet him; just a few years later, he was gone, losing a long battle with lung cancer.  It's hard to watch a NASCAR race without Benny's wit, enthusiasm, knowledge, and Bennyisms.  Just to hear him call one of his Jamie McMurray's wins this year, always pronouncing it "MacMary," would have been grand...



And then a modern one.  Shane Hmiel.  He's not your typical "good man," not at all.  Hmiel came to NASCAR in 2002 with a lot of promise.  He had great talent and an aggressive style, but was pegged to be the next "bad boy" due to his scrappy attitude and tendency to get into it with other drivers.  In 2003, Hmiel was suspended from NASCAR for testing positive for marijuana.  He returned in 2004, winning his first race in the Truck division, and signed on as a development driver for Dale Earnhardt, Jr. for the 2005 year.  After a solid start, Hmiel again failed a drug test, this time for both marijuana and cocaine, and was suspended indefinitely.  During his process to return to the sport, Hmiel failed a third test, and was permanently banned from the sport.  He hit rock bottom.  His father, a longtime mechanic in NASCAR, stated Hmiel was refusing help, laying on the couch all day feeling sorry for himself, gaining weight, letting his life go.  All talk about Hmiel died, and during that time, everything came together.  Hmiel has bipolar disorder; he didn't know that until 2008.  He "self-medicated" to deal with his condition after being misdiagnosed as a teenager and not knowing what was really going on.  Since the diagnosis, Hmiel's life has made a complete 180.  He's finally clean, and has returned to USAC, winning races across the country in open-wheel midgets.  In a few weeks, he'll make his Indy Lights debut at Chicago.  I believe in Shane.  I believe he's truly past his worst days and into his best; now with an understanding of himself and taking action to handle his condition appropriately.  I think he's a great story, I think he can raise a lot of awareness, and I don't think he's lost his talent.  It's unfortunate he threw it all away, but its really nice he has a new chance in the open-wheel world, with sights set on the Indy 500.  I hope he stays focused, keeps his life where it is now, and gets there.

Even from the (generally) uneducated-to-Cart bunch over here, Greg Moore stood out as something special (I don't like using that phrase 'cos we all see what we like most times), but his achievements and the great story about the ice racing made him someone unique.

Zanadri's tale is a strange one, from his career until F1 there seemed no reason why he wouldn't be awesome in F1, would love to know more about why it didn't work out for him - as for his life now, well, the guy is magic.

Loved the story on Shane Hmiel, thanks Eric.

Edited by medilloni, 13 August 2010 - 04:28 PM.

[HandyNZL]

medilloni, on 13 August 2010 - 02:26 PM, said:

A place for your good thoughts about those from your favourite motorsports that have put a smile on your face, inspired you, made you laugh or cry, made the sport a better place for you - doesn't matter about which branch of the sport... CART, F1, Indy, Sportscar racing, other formulas, karting, whatever you like.  

Try and post pics if you can, I'm a motorsport voyeur  


A favourite pic of two very special guys to me:
candg.jpg
Dan Gurney and Jim Clark.  Inspired me for some really simple reasons - both incredibly humble men and admired (possibly 'feared') each other for their ability, fiercely competitive.

When I look at this picture now... the drivers with open face helmets and no HANS devices, shoes and socks from Marks & Spencers, cars with low-tech spindly ani-roll bars and rubber drive shaft doughnuts that took your fingers off when fitting them... it was an incredibly easy sport to follow in all respects (technically, being able to see the driver working etc etc).  All it needs now is a comment from Steph about Jim Clark sat astride the exhaust pipes    


Cheers

I've tried using the pedals in the Cooper with dress shoes on....those guys had to have had size 5 shoes....my size 10's sure as hell wouldn't fit (toes hitting the bodywork even!!)

[Autumnpuma]

Nice thread. Ok. You've got Jimmy there and I can't top the pic with him and the Tall Californian, so I'll go to the next down on my list.


Gilles Villeneuve at Long Beach in 1981. My first F1 race and I saw it live with my Uncle. Being at Long Beach and watching Gilles in person was...well, it took a few years to fully appreciate what I saw. Many fans of Gilles never saw him actually race and that's a shame. Is it any wonder that I look at racing the way I do with Gilles as my teacher?

EDIT: Upon further reflection, that GP had to have been '79 or '80 because I think I was 9 at the time. Ok, Gilles was on pole..what year was that? '79 I think....God I hate getting old.

EDIT#2: Just looked it up on grandprix.com. Gilles was on pole and the field had to go 'round for one additional installation lap...so it was definitely 1979. So pretend the image is from '79. I need a beer.

---


Mika Hakkinen. The pic here is at Spa in 2000. The infamous pass on Schumacher's Ferrari by splitting Ricardo Zonta. That sums up why I love Mika. No fear. Total commitment. Icy skill. David Coulthard was once asked (having seen the telemetry of both Mika and Kimi) which one was the most impressive. He said that Kimi never made him say 'Wow!'. He also out-qualified an on-form Senna in his first race. Mika sits as #3 on my all-time list behind Clark and Gilles. I miss Mika like I miss Calvin and Hobbes.

---


Jean Alesi, Montreal, 1995. I've always loved Jean's smooth yet aggressive style. Like Prost with attitude. I don't remember seeing this particular race live but then I was in my 20s and mostly drunk....so I don't remember much of that decade. A special race in every way. A Ferrari #27 wins in Canada under odd circumstances. The hand of Gilles reaching back from the grave to influence a race? I choose to think so.

---


I'll end with a CART driver. Scott Goodyear. This pic is from the 1992 Indy 500 where he started dead last and finished 2nd behind Little Al by a fraction of a second. He was also a master of Long Beach. There were many drivers that CART has produced that could have done well in F1 but never quite made it to F1. Scott Goodyear tops that list.

There are many, many more but I haven't the time to find and post them all. I'm sure the rest of you will post 'em....good drivers and moments are shared by many.


note: I purposefully didn't include Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso. Both of them continue to provide me with enjoyment every other weekend and I see no need to post any pics of them.

Edited by Autumnpuma, 13 August 2010 - 11:37 PM.

[HandyNZL]

What sport do this Lewis and Alonso do??? I've never heard of them....must be some indie underground thing you know about...let the rest of us in on it...go on....puhleeeeasssseeeeeeeeeee......

[Autumnpuma]

HandyNZL, on 13 August 2010 - 09:11 PM, said:

What sport do this Lewis and Alonso do??? I've never heard of them....must be some indie underground thing you know about...let the rest of us in on it...go on....puhleeeeasssseeeeeeeeeee......

American Football. You wouldn't know them.

[Quiet One]

I'm pretty sure sooner or later somebody will write more fitting commentaries about Prost, Senna or some of the older glories. Here are two Non-orthodox views on two non-othodox drivers:

1) James Hunt. Young ones will hear lots of lyrical poetry qhen we old farts talk about "the old legends". Well, James Hunt was one of them. And even if at my grandparent's house F1 was always on on Sundays when I went to have a family lunch, one of my earliest memories was that of James Hunt at Canada in 77. You see, if we talk about guys "losing it", "choking under pressure" and blah blah blah, what would have said about Jimmy? The guy has a record Evander Holyfield would envy. So, Canada 77. Mosport Circuit. Andretti and Hunt fighting for the lead and they are about to lap Jochen Mass, Hunt's teammate. Andretti makes an ill attempt losing time and James overtakes him and gets right behind Mass. So, what's easier than overtake your own teammate and storm towards victory? Answer: crashing against him. That's what Jim did. On his defense, it was Jochen's fault (Mass wasn't one of the brightest drivers out there.) Now, if you think that things that Vettel do, or Lewis, or Massa, or Alonso, or Webber are childish, or violent or whatever, check Hunt's reaction:



Afterwards, he spent the race raising his fist at Mass everytime he passed by. He was fined by the FIA for USD 2,000, plus $ 750 for returning to the pits in an unsafe way. Just imagine this same thing happening nowadays?
Yes, they weren't all chivalrous back in the days. Of course, with time, being a nasty violent b#####d becomes "being truly passionate". In the end, he is remembered as one of the best racers there were. And he was. And he also was a nasty violent b#####d. Never let those colored glasses make you forget that great guys were also many times prima donnas in the past as much as nowadays. And just as we complain nowadays that overtaking is too difficult, in those years you would have complained that passing was too easy with a faster car, which meant that if it weren't for a lot less reliability (and guys like Jochen Mass) a guy in a faster car would end up lapping everybody. And people said that making overtaking more difficult would shift things from car's performance and make them rely heavier on driver's skills. We F1 spectators are a picky bunch and hard to keep content.

2) Juan Pablo Montoya
On the other side, we all recall JPM as "that fat, nasty violent b#####d". He was also a hard fighter and one of the very few to defy Schumi on equal terms when Schumi has been sitting at top alone for too long. JPM was raw, crude but blazingly fast and with cojones to match his bulging figure. He also had a short fuse, but, just like Hunt, was capable of having a considerable amount of good humour (his pairing with Kimi seemd to be made by the director of "The Odd Couple" more than from a team manager).
Instead of bringing some of his ballsy moves, I decided to bring back a sampling of his humor, at the A1 Ring, courtesy of a deer lose on the track, a humorless race engineer ("a horse with horns"???), and JPM's own maniacal laughter at the end of the flick:



Enjoy!

EDIT: I had found another funny video of Hunt at Monaco 1975 but seems like I can only show two videos per post. So you go ahead and check youtube with the keywords hunt and monaco 75 and you will find another fine display

Edited by Quiet One, 16 August 2010 - 02:37 AM.

[HandyNZL]

How can you not get the "oh dear" joke as soon as he said it? Silly grease monkey.

[medilloni]

Quiet One, on 16 August 2010 - 02:34 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure sooner or later somebody will write more fitting commentaries about Prost, Senna or some of the older glories. Here are two Non-orthodox views on two non-othodox drivers:

1) James Hunt.............

All true Andres, and I have to confess I was a big fan of his, more so when I realised he was so terrified before the start of a race - maybe that's why he came across as such an obnoxious git at times    

Quote

2) Juan Pablo Montoya
On the other side, we all recall JPM as "that fat, nasty violent b#####d". He was also a hard fighter and one of the very few to defy Schumi on equal terms when Schumi has been sitting at top alone for too long. JPM was raw, crude but blazingly fast and with cojones to match his bulging figure. He also had a short fuse, but, just like Hunt, was capable of having a considerable amount of good humour (his pairing with Kimi seemd to be made by the director of "The Odd Couple" more than from a team manager).
Instead of bringing some of his ballsy moves, I decided to bring back a sampling of his humor, at the A1 Ring, courtesy of a deer lose on the track, a humorless race engineer ("a horse with horns"???), and JPM's own maniacal laughter at the end of the flick:

Enjoy!

EDIT: I had found another funny video of Hunt at Monaco 1975 but seems like I can only show two videos per post. So you go ahead and check youtube with the keywords hunt and monaco 75 and you will find another fine display

Brilliant! And enjoy I did.  I miss Juan P for everything you mention about him... a real character, brave, and damn quick.  


Thanks Andres.

Edited by medilloni, 16 August 2010 - 08:38 AM.

[Autumnpuma]

I, too, miss Monty. More than that, I lament the current attitude towards racing that leads great racers like Hunt and Monty to become more civilized. Nobody stops to think that their crude personalities go hand in hand with their raw speed and daring....if you put a cap on that, their racing will suffer. I miss the days when those violent b#####ds would be thought of as 'hard-edged racers' and 'ultimate competitors' rather than 'violent b#####ds'. There was a refreshing honesty in those days...you could genuinely love a gentleman driver as much as hate a b@stard (and make no mistake, for those that don't remember, people hated the b@stards back then).

So when we're busy posting images and stories of these 'great men' take care to remember them as they honestly were. Racing drivers. A different breed from you and me. Closer to gladiators than we might like to admit. I, for one, honestly love 'em for it.

[HandyNZL]

We're living in a PC world.  Please remove all your b################################## words so that the gentle ears of this generation do not get hurt.








The upshot of this PC world is that to win is not the point, rather to be involved...heck in my lil ol' country, you can't fail at school these days...you get a "deferred pass"....say WHAT? Guess Massa was the deferred World Champ in 2008?

[Quiet One]

Exactly the opposite of what I meant but...oh, well...George understood what I meant.

[medilloni]

A lot has been said about Mario Andretti, his accomplishments in the States and in F1 are remarkable, but one guy that's not mentioned too often really caught my imagination, Peter Revson.  Peter is the last naturalised American to have won in F1, Mario not being born in the US.

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Funny, there was no, 'he won't make it 'cos he's from the USA' crap (but then there were no internety forums    ), and it would have been wrong anyway.... he won one of the first British GP's I went to, Silverstone in '73 in a Yardley McLaren - he finished '73 with two wins and something like 8 or 9 top 5 positions, he was the real deal, great to watch and a match for any of his competitors.  

Most stories about him started with something like, "Son of the Revlon cosmetics family... drove(?) his own yacht... dated a Miss World... bla bla", when it should have started with his many achievements, such as his CanAm drives for Carl Haas (Lola) and Teddy Meyer (McLaren) with whom he won the CanAm championship, and CanAm cars were fire-spitting were beasts at the time.  He finished 2nd at the Indy 500 too, not sure, but I think he put it on pole as well.

 revcanam.jpg   6.84K   0 downloads

After two years at McLaren it seems that the Marlboro fags sponsorship was too big to refuse, so Peter was dropped and went to drive for Shadow in 74, it was in practice for the South African GP that he crashed and lost his life, the accident was due to suspension failure.  Another great talent was lost that day.

Busy at work at the minute, but if anyone's got more info/stories/links to his career on his CanAm and Indy drives I'd appreciate it, ta.  

Edited by medilloni, 17 August 2010 - 04:45 PM.

[Autumnpuma]

medilloni, on 17 August 2010 - 03:03 PM, said:

A lot has been said about Mario Andretti, his accomplishments in the States and in F1 are remarkable, but one guy that's not mentioned too often really caught my imagination, Peter Revson.  Peter is the last naturalised American to have won in F1, Mario not being born in the US.

I understand the desire of non-Americans to want to take Andretti away from us, but really, Mario was born in Italy and came to America as a young child. He has always identified himself as an American. He raced as an American under the flag of the U.S. He is an American racing driver and an American F1 champion. Where he (or any other driver) was born is irrelevant.

I know this wasn't your point, and I do appreciate the info on Revson, but it burns my arse when people make distinctions between 'naturalized' and 'native' Americans. If you're a citizen of the U.S., you're an American.

[medilloni]

Autumnpuma, on 17 August 2010 - 10:09 PM, said:

I understand the desire of non-Americans to want to take Andretti away from us, but really, Mario was born in Italy and came to America as a young child. He has always identified himself as an American. He raced as an American under the flag of the U.S. He is an American racing driver and an American F1 champion. Where he (or any other driver) was born is irrelevant.

I know this wasn't your point, and I do appreciate the info on Revson, but it burns my arse when people make distinctions between 'naturalized' and 'native' Americans. If you're a citizen of the U.S., you're an American.

  Well tie me to a chair and duck me in the pond, I wrote that, then thought, someone is bound to jump on by back about leaving Mario out, so I added that sentence at the last minute!  Come to think about it, in my wildest dreams I would never think of Mario being Italian.

As for it burning your arse, look on the bright side Mike, the attitude in the US is that you're all American Citizens first and foremost (which, to be clear, is something I admire, and maybe slightly envious of!), whilst we're still busy importing an immigration time-bomb.

Anyway, I was thinking of doing a bit on Francois Cevert when I've time, and even though he was born in France, he'll never be a Frenchman to me, he was far too good for that  



Peace

Edited by medilloni, 18 August 2010 - 10:42 AM.

[Autumnpuma]

medilloni, on 18 August 2010 - 09:15 AM, said:

  Well tie me to a chair and duck me in the pond, I wrote that, then thought, someone is bound to jump on by back about leaving Mario out, so I added that sentence at the last minute!  Come to think about it, in my wildest dreams I would never think of Mario being Italian.

As for it burning your arse, look on the bright side Mike, the attitude in the US is that you're all American Citizens first and foremost (which, to be clear, is something I admire, and maybe slightly envious of!), whilst we're still busy importing an immigration time-bomb.

Anyway, I was thinking of doing a bit on Francois Cevert when I've time, and even though he was born in France, he'll never be a Frenchman to me, he was far too good for that  



Peace

My appologies to you; I'm so sorry for my previous post. Thank you for having the grace to overlook my bad attitude in your fine thread!

[medilloni]

Autumnpuma, on 18 August 2010 - 06:04 PM, said:

My appologies to you; I'm so sorry for my previous post. Thank you for having the grace to overlook my bad attitude in your fine thread!

Thanks Mike, you're a gent, though no apology needed and no offence taken.  

But... a couple of things you said earlier got me thinking........

Quote

Gilles Villeneuve at Long Beach in 1981. My first F1 race and I saw it live with my Uncle. Being at Long Beach and watching Gilles in person was...well, it took a few years to fully appreciate what I saw. Many fans of Gilles never saw him actually race and that's a shame. Is it any wonder that I look at racing the way I do with Gilles as my teacher?

Of those that like the sport now (aka, most people on forums), I wonder how many people on this forum have been to race meetings (in particular the big stuff, F1, Indy, F5000, CanAm etc) and felt the power, the the sounds, smell, and sight of drivers close up.... the whole experience of an F1 race used to blow me away, there's no other sporting spectacle that hits all of your senses quite the same - so is it any wonder that we become a little emotional about our sport?  I don't mind saying, I do.  I can remember hearing a Matra v12 and it blew me away, some friends that were with me burst into tears - the shock was amazing.

So, to answer your question, I think there was a time (I mean an age when you first experience it, maybe a time when we're particularly sensitive to it) that it stays with you in a special way, and it does affect the way you think about the sport, and it does make us extremely passionate about it.

Meh, I've had a beer, hope I made sense!  

[Autumnpuma]

medilloni, on 18 August 2010 - 08:59 PM, said:

Thanks Mike, you're a gent, though no apology needed and no offence taken.  

But... a couple of things you said earlier got me thinking........

Of those that like the sport now (aka, most people on forums), I wonder how many people on this forum have been to race meetings (in particular the big stuff, F1, Indy, F5000, CanAm etc) and felt the power, the the sounds, smell, and sight of drivers close up.... the whole experience of an F1 race used to blow me away, there's no other sporting spectacle that hits all of your senses quite the same - so is it any wonder that we become a little emotional about our sport?  I don't mind saying, I do.  I can remember hearing a Matra v12 and it blew me away, some friends that were with me burst into tears - the shock was amazing.

So, to answer your question, I think there was a time (I mean an age when you first experience it, maybe a time when we're particularly sensitive to it) that it stays with you in a special way, and it does affect the way you think about the sport, and it does make us extremely passionate about it.

Meh, I've had a beer, hope I made sense!  

Brilliant. I don't remember much from that first race except the sound. It was almost too loud but also deep; not painful, but exciting. I've heard the Minardi V10 2-seater roar around the streets of Las Vegas a few years back and that was painful to hear. Very loud and, despite all the technology involved, rather soulless. My love of F1 and racing can be traced directly back to the sound of those engines in '79*. If those cars of old were running silent electric motors it would have diminished the experience.

*They all sounded different, too.

[DOF_power]

That Low Tech was state of the art technology back then, more advanced for its time that anything we have today.

[HandyNZL]

'Tis why I race historics...a grid of 30+ F5000's is amazing...and the 1000cc screamers of the Juniors also have their charms

[medilloni]

HandyNZL, on 19 August 2010 - 08:15 AM, said:

'Tis why I race historics...a grid of 30+ F5000's is amazing...and the 1000cc screamers of the Juniors also have their charms

Yeah, as DOF says, and Mike in the post above, all the sounds were different, all the engines were being constantly squeezed for every drop of performance.

Though one glorious racing engine that's always stuck in my head as being low-tech-but-beautiful was the ones you've just mentioned -  Chevy F5000 engines, a unique 'angry animal' sound that scared the sh1t out of small children     We ran Peter Gethin and Brian Redman in a F5000 Chevron, and the sound of those monsters in the workshop was indescribable - used to reverberate through your body, the fecking building shook     I am now slightly deaf, but boy, it was worth it.

Strange contrast.... I rallied a 998cc Hillman Imp (ok, laugh your c0ck off    ), the engine was derived from a Coventry Climax fire engine pump, then used in single seaters (Formula Junior I think?) and in production of the Imp - after I'd put Wills Rings on the head, I got 110bhp from it, it revved to 11,000.  Again, simple engineering stretched to the limit, what a screamer, but always waiting for that THUD, and sudden silence that a rod going through the side made  

Edited by medilloni, 19 August 2010 - 09:38 AM.

[Persevere]

Fine, fine postings here, guys.  

Peter Revson:  When I was devouring motor racing books in the early 1990's I, of course, remembered his name but was especially delighted to find out how much he had done in a relatively brief career.

Greg Moore:  What a terrific young racer he was, and so much potential.  If I remember correctly the drivers were not told of his death until after the race was completed at the season-closer in Fontana in 1999.  After a hard fought victory poor Adrian Fernandez couldn't contain himself in the post-race interview and burst into tears.

[Persevere]

Pedro  Rodriguez (1940 – 1971)

  

  Rodriguez had a sporadic career in F1, two victories in some 54 races between 1963 and 1971, and doing so with a handful of marques:  Lotus, Ferrari, Cooper and BRM.  In this instance, the numbers don’t tell the story.  Not atypical of drivers in that period, Rodriguez willingly participated in all forms of racing.  He won at Daytona in 1963 when it was a 3-hour race and again in 1964, partnered with Phil Hill when it was increased to 2,000 km; both times he drove a Ferrari 250 GTO.  In 1968 he won at LeMans in a Ford GT-40.  In the mighty Porsche 917 he returned to Daytona, now a full 24-hour endurance race, and won in both 1970 and 1971.  He participated in American sports car championships including the Can-Am and in 1968 he drove for BRM in the Tasman series; hell, he even drove half a dozen NASCAR events.

Rodriguez did the best he could with what he was given.  Driving for Cooper in 1967 he managed a win at the season opener in South Africa despite the overweight V12 Maserati power plant and a year old chassis; in fact he managed 6^th in the WDC that season competing against superior chassis-engine combinations.  However, despite some good outings, he never really showed in F1.

Today he is best known and most fondly remembered for his success with J.W. Automotive Engineering.  After team owner John Wyer contracted with Porsche to run their new sports car for 1970 he remembered Rodriguez from the fine win he gave his team at LeMans in 1968 and signed him.  That would be a marriage that suited both men.  The stamina and driving style of Rodriguez was a perfect match for that most beautiful and brutish of cars, the Porsche 917 (a car that never looked more supreme then when it was decked out in the Gulf-sponsored livery of pale blue and orange).  This car, introduced in mid-1969 and run sporadically that year, completely dominated the sports car championship for the two full seasons it was campaigned and Rodriguez was the dominant driver amongst a group that included, among others, Jo Siffert, Jackie Oliver, Richard Attwood, Brian Redman, Vic Elford, Hans Herrmann, Leo Kinnunen, Kurt Ahrens and Derek Bell.  Keep in mind that Rodriquez was also driving a full schedule for BRM’s Formula 1 team during this same period.  

    The pure skill of the man came to the fore in wet conditions, one of those few drivers who possessed an innate ability to both grasp the notion of the limits of adhesion and to capitalize on lesser souls on track.  When you have a little time to spare I would recommend that you poke around YouTube and you’ll find footage to savor.  Watch him dive into Eau Rouge full throttle and door-to-door with his teammate, the gifted Jo Siffert.

His last completed race was at the Osterreichring in ’71 where he partnered with Richard Atwood:  

“…I was called in at the last moment to drive with Pedro… I had very little practice and was about three seconds off Pedro’s pace, which really wasn’t too bad.  The corner after the pits was flat out and blind – a fantastic corner – and I just could not take it flat.  I asked Pedro about it and he just shrugged and said, ‘Well, you just do it…’  His constitution was as such that he could have done the entire 1000 kms on his own, and he very nearly did.  I only did about 10 laps in the middle and he did the rest…”  

Indeed:  an unscheduled pit stop put the car 5 ½ minutes behind.  Despite that Rodriguez went about the business required of him, driving, as John Wyer said, “…(with) a cold, implacable fury…” including lap times that bettered his pole qualifying, and won the race.  A couple of weeks later he died in a minor event driving a privately entered Ferrari 512M that suffered mechanical failure.  John Wyer was a reserved and smart business man, a first-rate team owner and not one given to hyperbole.  When he later recalled this time he wrote the following:

“It was completely shattering and almost impossible to accept…  At the wheel of a car he was the complete tiger, in the mold of Fangio, Moss and Clark.  I believe that he was very happy with us, and he never complained.  I like to think that I was able to give him a car which was worthy of his tremendous talent and fighting spirit.”        


  

        

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[HandyNZL]

Wrong(ish) thread, I know, but instead of a good man, I'm going to draw attention to a good car....not because of results, but because it just looks great...I'd go so far as to say, this would be the only Ferrari I'd ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever want to own.



Drool, baby, drool...

The Ferrari P4 is a storied racer – one that had the personal             attention of the Commendatore himself as he used it to battle General             Motors and the Ford Motor Company on the continent and in the U.S.             Here is a brief review of the P4’s development and its start             down the road to automotive legend status.                     Ford’s               MkII victory at Le Mans in 1966 against the Ferrari P3 was the               compelling event that gave rise to the Ferrari P4. In               tracing the history of the P4, it is important to understand the               thinking of Mauro Forghieri Technical Director at Ferrari’s               Maranello Racing Department from 1962 to 1985. Acting under orders               from the Commendatore, Forghieri was told after Le Mans defeat               to get to work and build “whatever car you like”. “All               I want”, stated Ferrari “is for your sports prototype               to win”.

           Forghieri               later noted that more than any other encounter with Ferrari, this               episode indicated the kind of man Ferrari really was and the               passion he held for the sport of racing – especially endurance             racing. Knowing               Ferrari’s heart was set on winning the Italian Grand             Prix, Forghieri               began in earnest to develop his 3 valves per cylinder, V-12. Its               polyhemispheric               combustion chamber design and 1000 cc cylinder             capacity was predicted to provide about 8 percent more power than             its P3 predecessor. In addition, Forghieri knew he had to improve             the cars power/weight ratio – a strong point of the P3. The             new P4 was to be a more powerful coupe redesigned to eliminate the             P3’s faults while capitalizing upon its assets.

           When               all was said and done, the V-12 power output climbed from 420 to               450 hp, the compression ratio rose from 10.5:1 to 11:1 at               the same 8,200 rev limit as the previous engine. Forghieri included               a coil ignition with water cooling and a Lucas indirect fuel injection               system. Interestingly, the V-12 performed a structural function               in that it actually helped strengthen the chassis.

           The               redesigned 5 speed gearbox, mated to a rear-mounted differential,               was beefed up to handle the additional output of the big V-12.               Forghieri chose Firestone’s which were noteworthy for their               significant increase in width over the previously used Dunlop’s.

           Although               the P4’s wheelbase was the same as the P3’s,               the front track was increased from 1462 to 1488 mm and the rear               from 1431 to 1450 mm. Rear brakes were moved from the gearbox area               to the wheels in order to increase brake cooling. The newly added               Firestones required suspension modifications: the P4 used the P3s               helical springs, independent wheels and wishbones at the front               end and the same components at the rear with the addition of telescopic               shock absorbers. The rear suspension also featured two torsion               bars slanted toward the front end.

           The               P4’s technical improvements increased its weight an additional               80 kilograms over its P3 sibling.The               cars distinguishing bodywork mimicked the P3 although the 4 had               thinner and longer lens-reflectors than the 3 and a deeper,               more inset air intake at the base of the windshield, broader air               intakes for the rear brakes and a flattened tail which incorporated               a more pronounced wing.

           At the               end of November in 1967, Ferrari’s Racing Department               put two P4’s on a TWA flight from Milan to New York. Forghieri               noted that in his years at Ferrari, this was the first time the               Commendatore put Prancing Horse race cars in the care of the Prototypes               Team to test out an endurance circuit 3 months in advance of the               actual event. From New York the cars were trailered to Daytona               where the track was reserved on an exclusive basis so as to keep               the P4’s track times a secret. Two driver teams (Chris Amon-Lorenzo               Bandini and Michael Parkes-Ludovico Scarfiotti) simulated a full               24 hour race with the usual stops to refuel and change tires and               drivers.

           Forghieri               recalls that both cars “performed well” and               in fact, on several occasions, bested the times clocked by Ford’s               MkII driven by the duo of Ken Miles-Lloyd Ruby. Good               news about fast cars travels fast and in fact the P4’s               simulation race times were so outstanding, word reached Ford and               Chaparral very quickly. The               Carroll Shelby / Holman & Moody brain trust, responsible               for Ford’s sports program, didn’t know what to do as               they found their MkII/Bs uncompetitive.

           Forghieri’s               re-engineering efforts and Enzo Ferrari’s               competitive drive paid off as Ferrari’s Ford fighters finished               1-2-3 at Daytona, followed by a win in the Monza 1000 Kilometers.               In the big race at Le Mans, however, the P4 lost out to the superior               7.0 liter Ford Mk IV, which bested Ferrari’s P4 top end by               a significant 15 mph. Ferrari followed with another second place               finish at Brands Hatch and finished first overall for the year               in the Manufacturer’s Championship. Disappointed               by Ford’s win at Le Mans, Enzo decided to walk               away from sports car racing in 1968 to focus on Formula One. He               stayed away for two years not returning until 1970 but by now the               ageing P4 had been replaced by the 512.

           The               heart and soul of the P4 was its V12 engine, about which Enzo Ferrari               said “I have always given preeminence to the engine,               striving to achieve maximum performance since I am convinced that               it counts for more than fifty percent of racing success. Ideas               are our strength and the tenacity to back them is our wealth. When               I began, I went against everyone’s opinion when I wanted               a twelve-cylinder, but that engine, which many people thought would               mark the end on my ambitions, can still be recognized in its many               children and grandchildren. I have gone down the path of eight               cylinders, six cylinders and four cylinders, but the twelve cylinder               engine is my traditional and certainly most beloved theme. (Maranello,               March, 1985).

           Some               believe Ferrari would have termed the P4 as his “track               animal” because of its aggressive look…like a large               feline ready to pounce (with 12 cylinder speed) upon its prey.               The architectural maxim “Form follows function” applies               superbly to the P4. Every line, every curve, every nuance is dedicated               to a winning. In all the world of automotive design, the P4 has               few equals.

           How               many P4’s are left in the world? As near as anyone knows,               there are three and, not too surprisingly, they’re parked               behind museum doors. Their value? An estimated $15 million a copy. Fortunately               the talent and desire to recreate this automotive legend thrives               today…but only for a select few.




(info source: http://www.p4bynorwo.../p4_history.htm)

[medilloni]

Persevere, on 22 August 2010 - 07:30 PM, said:

Pedro  Rodriguez (1940 – 1971)

  

  Rodriguez had a sporadic career in F1, two victories in some 54 races between 1963 and 1971, and doing so with a handful of marques:  Lotus, Ferrari, Cooper and BRM.  In this instance, the numbers don’t tell the story.  Not atypical of drivers in that period, Rodriguez willingly participated in all forms of racing.  He won at Daytona in 1963 when it was a 3-hour race and again in 1964, partnered with Phil Hill when it was increased to 2,000 km; both times he drove a Ferrari 250 GTO.  In 1968 he won at LeMans in a Ford GT-40.  In the mighty Porsche 917 he returned to Daytona, now a full 24-hour endurance race, and won in both 1970 and 1971.  He participated in American sports car championships including the Can-Am and in 1968 he drove for BRM in the Tasman series; hell, he even drove half a dozen NASCAR events.

Rodriguez did the best he could with what he was given.  Driving for Cooper in 1967 he managed a win at the season opener in South Africa despite the overweight V12 Maserati power plant and a year old chassis; in fact he managed 6^th in the WDC that season competing against superior chassis-engine combinations.  However, despite some good outings, he never really showed in F1.

Today he is best known and most fondly remembered for his success with J.W. Automotive Engineering.  After team owner John Wyer contracted with Porsche to run their new sports car for 1970 he remembered Rodriguez from the fine win he gave his team at LeMans in 1968 and signed him.  That would be a marriage that suited both men.  The stamina and driving style of Rodriguez was a perfect match for that most beautiful and brutish of cars, the Porsche 917 (a car that never looked more supreme then when it was decked out in the Gulf-sponsored livery of pale blue and orange).  This car, introduced in mid-1969 and run sporadically that year, completely dominated the sports car championship for the two full seasons it was campaigned and Rodriguez was the dominant driver amongst a group that included, among others, Jo Siffert, Jackie Oliver, Richard Attwood, Brian Redman, Vic Elford, Hans Herrmann, Leo Kinnunen, Kurt Ahrens and Derek Bell.  Keep in mind that Rodriquez was also driving a full schedule for BRM’s Formula 1 team during this same period.  

    The pure skill of the man came to the fore in wet conditions, one of those few drivers who possessed an innate ability to both grasp the notion of the limits of adhesion and to capitalize on lesser souls on track.  When you have a little time to spare I would recommend that you poke around YouTube and you’ll find footage to savor.  Watch him dive into Eau Rouge full throttle and door-to-door with his teammate, the gifted Jo Siffert.

His last completed race was at the Osterreichring in ’71 where he partnered with Richard Atwood:  

“…I was called in at the last moment to drive with Pedro… I had very little practice and was about three seconds off Pedro’s pace, which really wasn’t too bad.  The corner after the pits was flat out and blind – a fantastic corner – and I just could not take it flat.  I asked Pedro about it and he just shrugged and said, ‘Well, you just do it…’  His constitution was as such that he could have done the entire 1000 kms on his own, and he very nearly did.  I only did about 10 laps in the middle and he did the rest…”  

Indeed:  an unscheduled pit stop put the car 5 ½ minutes behind.  Despite that Rodriguez went about the business required of him, driving, as John Wyer said, “…(with) a cold, implacable fury…” including lap times that bettered his pole qualifying, and won the race.  A couple of weeks later he died in a minor event driving a privately entered Ferrari 512M that suffered mechanical failure.  John Wyer was a reserved and smart business man, a first-rate team owner and not one given to hyperbole.  When he later recalled this time he wrote the following:

[i]“It was completely shattering and almost impossible to accept…  At the wheel of a car he was the complete tiger, in the mold of Fangio, Moss and Clark.  I believe that he was very happy with us, and he never complained.  I like to think that I was able to give him a car which was worthy of his tremendous talent and fighting spirit.”

Superb, thanks for that David, I saw him twice, once in a non-championship F1 race at Oulton Park, think it might have been the Gold Cup, and again at Brands Hatch in the beast of a Porsche.  One of the reasons I love these stories about these guys is the amount of driving they did in other races and championships at the same time as F1.

I had to laugh when I saw Vic Elford mentioned - anyone that knows of him might light a candle for Kimi Raikonen's return  


@ Handy

Quote

Wrong(ish) thread, I know, but instead of a good man, I'm going to draw attention to a good car....

Nah, you're excused mate, beautiful car and great story about some, er, Good Men    Thinking of Good Men, and not necessarily having to be drivers (though that was probably my inference    ), I was thinking about Colin Chapman.... how he was almost the opposite of Ferrari by being so damned good with the chassis - all of the stuff we've seen such as twin chassis, multi element wings etc, his story is a great one.  Anyone up for gathering a piece about him will beat me to it  

Thanks for the great posts people.

Edited by medilloni, 25 August 2010 - 07:45 AM.

[Pucky the Whale]

Let's get this thread back going, yes?



Jeff Fuller, a racer from somewhere vaguely around here, has to get some admiration from me.  That hairstyle (in this picture, it's 2000, not 1984) and the willingness to drive the Viagra car.  Fuller became something of a NASCAR cult hero by being the poster boy (as if anyone with a mullet could be a poster boy) for "start and park," a practice where low budget teams field a second car that simply runs a few laps and parks (collecting money without spending any on tires or fuel to fund another car, or to fund that car for running full distances in future weeks in the case of single-car parkers).  In 2004, Fuller parked in all 30 Nationwide races he contested, and since 2001, has parked a total of 54 times in the second-tier Nationwide Series.  But there's more to Fuller than those unfortunate stats: in 1996, he took a surprising victory at Bristol, holding off the well-equipped Dale Jarrett, one of the most accomplished NASCAR drivers of the 90s.  On top of that, Fuller won 31 races in the Modified tour, a regional division of open-wheel stock cars.  It's hard not to respect someone who came from such a grassroots series with a great passion for the sport of stock car racing in its truest and original form (it all started with Mods).  Perhaps Fuller's driving never stood out (during my time watching, he was mainly a start and park guy, though I did see him run the Modified twice in his later career when he returned to his roots), but it was hard not to like a guy who just didn't take himself seriously: he wasn't above parking, he wasn't above representing humiliating sponsors, and he wasn't above the mullet.  He certainly didn't lack heart.



Here's a "wicked" local one: Mike Marfeo.  Marfeo races on the bullring short tracks in this area, and with a different marketing strategy, has always been able to attract fantastic sponsors (Dunkin Donuts, for example, can be seen in the picture) compared to most local racers.  Yet for all the nice colors and big names, Marfeo was always at the back and only showed up irregularly.  It was pretty easy to question why he was out there and poke fun at his pace.  And then I learned something about Mike: his son passed away at the age of 2 from brain cancer in 1998.  His racing efforts were being used for charity and his ability to attract sponsorship was rather brilliant considering most cars were just backed by family businesses or local automotive places in return for storage/service.  It was really hard not to respect that.  I remember fondly one night when, completely randomly, Marfeo started rocketing to the front.  Using the outside line, the Rhode Island racer took a car suffering from serious oversteer to the lead; these were the first passes I had ever seen him make, and they were damned good ones.  It was an amazing display to see him lead lap after lap with his car sliding out from under him on the exit of the corners each time.  What easily would have been the most amazing win I had ever seen at the local track slipped away, as a bobble on a restart caused a collision, and Marfeo retired from the lead.  In his first kart race (an all-star indoor event in Providence), he wasn't shy to mix it up with the big boys...or confront them post-race in quite the fiery display.  Mike's enthusiasm for marketing, his drive to raise charity for a cause very close to him, and some entertaining moments easily make him one of those drivers I won't forget.  There's nothing quite like the passion of the grassroots short tracks and Marfeo definitely embodies that.  We used to laugh when his 01 pulled out from the tunnel and onto the track; now we applaud.