169 replies to this topic

[Ctrl300]

Prost was greater than Senna.
Win percentage:
Prost 25.63
Senna 25.47

Points per race:
P 3.99
S 3.81

WDC:
P 4 (and 4 times runner up)
S 3

One point of interest you may like to know is that if the points scoring system as it is today was like this since 1950 Alain would have not only won the most races but also the most Championships with 6. He would have won in 1984 (the points would be even between him and Niki but Alain won more races) and he would have also won in 1988 (due to the fact that the stupid "best 11 finishes" rule has been abolished) His 105 points in 1988 would also be 112 - a record if done under today's points system. Alain Prost World Champion 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1993 - Champion of Champions.

Senna only won a WDC when he had the best car, the McLaren. Alain won in 86 although the best car was the Williams.


And for those whom start yelling about fastest laps:
P 41
S 19

Although Senna (65) had more poles but Alain (33) often opted for a different race set up which made him go from mid field and win.
Prost had 86 front rows. He also had the record for races led in a season 15 until jaws eclipsed it in 2004.

BTW this was compiled by a info from a page by a Prost fanatic and might present itself as slightly biased, but I think he has some valid points with regards to the 6 WDC's.

Edited by Ctrl300, 07 May 2006 - 09:19 AM.

[UrKo]

Ok..the third answer doesnt make any sense....You could change it to something like:
I dont care...or.....Who cares...............


TO answer your question:
Both drivers were equal to me and were better than MS.....

Edited by UrKo, 07 May 2006 - 07:27 AM.

[ykickamoocow]

Im not really qualified to make a judgement on these two. I was only 6 when Senna died.

[nojvnof1]

Oh boy, this is gonna provide for some heated debate.

I'm moving this to Historical F1.

[Autumnpuma]

I like your research, Ctrl, but before even voting I knew Senna would be on top! As for my feeling, I've always put Prost ahead of Senna. Both were mightily quick. Nigel would be near them in pure speed, I feel, tho no facts on hand to back that up.

[Ctrl300]

All those of of you whom vote for Senna ad don't leave a reason prove that you have no idea. Your vote is cast just based on the hype on this forum, thats all. Sissy's ninjaing off into the dark

[kenneth]

I don't care about statistcs , for me Senna was the best ever ....

[Jean Todt]

kenneth, on May 8 2006, 11:35 AM, said:

I don't care about statistcs , for me Senna was the best ever ....

eerrr! havnt seen both of them driving!

[johndifo]

MS similar to Prost
FA similar to Senna, well not quite but the atitude is the same

Nelson Piquet was also a great driver

Senna on rain was just unbeatable, his first GP win at Estoril with an inferior car, was like a boat race.

Edited by johndifo, 08 May 2006 - 12:10 PM.

[Autumnpuma]

johndifo, on May 8 2006, 05:06 AM, said:

Senna on rain was just unbeatable, his first GP win at Estoril with an inferior car, was like a boat race.

Monaco, 1984. Senna's famous charge in the rain driving a Toleman. But here's what few people remember: Stefan Bellof, in an under-performing Tyrrell, stormed up to third from dead last. That was a man unbeatable in the rain! He died later that year, I think...

[funkejay]

I voted Prost, and I'll tell you why. Senna was unbelievably talented, and probably gifted with more raw skill than any other driver to have ever piloted a single seater race car of any configuration. However, I think Prost was the better overall package, and was a far greater thinking man's driver.

Although each was a multiple world champion, and therefore shared many of the same skills and talents necessary to achieve that goal, I think that Senna and Prost were, in many ways, diametric opposites, which probably contributed to their famous and long standing fued. For example, Senna was much more passionate, and Prost was much more rational. While Senna represented consumate talent, Prost embodied analytic perfection. Whereas Senna relied upon his otherwordly car control, Prost relied upon his race craft.

As a result, it is hard to compare the two, but in the end, I think Prost's more holistic approach to his craft gives him somewhat of an edge.

[Autumnpuma]

funkejay, on May 8 2006, 01:03 PM, said:

I voted Prost, and I'll tell you why. Senna was unbelievably talented, and probably gifted with more raw skill than any other driver to have ever piloted a single seater race car of any configuration. However, I think Prost was the better overall package, and was a far greater thinking man's driver.

Although each was a multiple world champion, and therefore shared many of the same skills and talents necessary to achieve that goal, I think that Senna and Prost were, in many ways, diametric opposites, which probably contributed to their famous and long standing fued. For example, Senna was much more passionate, and Prost was much more rational. While Senna represented consumate talent, Prost embodied analytic perfection. Whereas Senna relied upon his otherwordly car control, Prost relied upon his race craft.

As a result, it is hard to compare the two, but in the end, I think Prost's more holistic approach to his craft gives him somewhat of an edge.

Excellent! You've put into words what I was thinking with my pitiful four sentences

[Ctrl300]

johndifo, on May 8 2006, 10:06 PM, said:

MS similar to Prost
FA similar to Senna, well not quite but the atitude is the same

Nelson Piquet was also a great driver

Senna on rain was just unbeatable, his first GP win at Estoril with an inferior car, was like a boat race.

Piquet was a great driver and is regarded by many Brazilians to be greater than Senna. BTW, in a interview on the subject Piquet rates Prost as the best.

funkejay, on May 9 2006, 06:03 AM, said:

I voted Prost, and I'll tell you why. Senna was unbelievably talented, and probably gifted with more raw skill than any other driver to have ever piloted a single seater race car of any configuration. However, I think Prost was the better overall package, and was a far greater thinking man's driver.

Although each was a multiple world champion, and therefore shared many of the same skills and talents necessary to achieve that goal, I think that Senna and Prost were, in many ways, diametric opposites, which probably contributed to their famous and long standing fued. For example, Senna was much more passionate, and Prost was much more rational. While Senna represented consumate talent, Prost embodied analytic perfection. Whereas Senna relied upon his otherwordly car control, Prost relied upon his race craft.

As a result, it is hard to compare the two, but in the end, I think Prost's more holistic approach to his craft gives him somewhat of an edge.

Brilliant post I could not have said it better myself!
What you left out is only that Senna had Prost as his benchmark and his only goal was to beat him.
In a final ironic touch they both shaked hands and made up in '93 at Prost and Senna's last ever podium finish when Prost got the victory and his fourth and last WDC.

[kenneth]

For me they were all great but senna is a bit of more talented

these are all the most great drivers,

Senna
G Villenuve
Piquet
Prost
Mansell


I don't put Shumi there he's one of the best too but in my opinion he had it easy on several Championships
when he had a strong opponent he had tuff times in example

96 Hill
97 JV
98Hakkinen
99Hakinnen

then those drivers for a reason or other choosed a different way like Jv and weren't able to challenge
cos if Jv had a good car always i don't think Shumi has win that much...but the story is what it is so..i have to cope with it.hewhehehhe

cheers mates.

[nojvnof1]

Quote

Piquet was a great driver and is regarded by many Brazilians to be greater than Senna.

I have never heard that before. As for Piquet rating Prost over Senna, it's a well known fact that Nelson and Ayrton didn't like each other to say the least, so I strongly doubt he is an objective party in the debate.

[monza gorilla]

Autumnpuma, on May 8 2006, 07:03 PM, said:

Monaco, 1984. Senna's famous charge in the rain driving a Toleman. But here's what few people remember: Stefan Bellof, in an under-performing Tyrrell, stormed up to third from dead last. That was a man unbeatable in the rain! He died later that year, I think...

How many here remember Stefan at all? A huge talent. The 1984 Tyrrell was an absolute gem.

On topic, I think Alain was the more complete driver. That's not based on statistics. That's based on actually watching both drivers over pretty much their entire F1 careers.

Nelson Piquet wouldn't know objective if it bit him on the arse.

[Karta]

Senna will win such polls close to anywhere due to fact he died in crash. Heartless statement, but imo totally true.

[nojvnof1]

That's nonsense mate

Quote

How many here remember Stefan at all?

I've heard and read abit about him and know he was a mega talent. I've read about his race at Monaco in 1984. If I recall correctly he passed away racing sportscars at Spa, or was he racing in F1?

[Ctrl300]

nojvnof1, on May 9 2006, 07:28 PM, said:

That's nonsense mate
I've heard and read abit about him and know he was a mega talent. I've read about his race at Monaco in 1984. If I recall correctly he passed away racing sportscars at Spa, or was he racing in F1?

I don't know how big of a talent he was, he sored 4 points over two seasons...
BTW, I stole this from some fans site:
"Racing the Porsche 956B at Spa-Francorchamps, where he’d won the year before. Qualifying the car third of thirty-three, he ran second to one of the other Porsches early on. Boutsen got them into the lead a while later, but they lost this at the next change over, as a brake pad needed changing. Bellof came out and charged after Jacky Ickx, whose 962C led after the car ahead made it’s pitstop. The German caught the leader, and on lap 78 attempted to go around the outside through the daunting 140 mph Eau Rouge corner. Ickx had nowhere to go, and the two cars collided. Stefan went head on into the wall and was killed instantly. He was 27."

To exclude Schu from the greatest drivers of all time is simply wrong Kenneth. You should include Fangio, Brabham, Fittipaldi, Lauda and Schu.

[Wez]

Senna was greater than Prost!!!
Those stats dont mean a thing because Prost raced a larger percentage of his career in more competitive cars...
Senna's career:
1984 - Toleman (Super Aguri Pace)
1985 - Lotus (Red Bull Pace)
1986 - Lotus (Red Bull Pace)
1987 - Lotus (Toyota Pace)
1988 - Mclaren - World Champion
1989 - Mclaren - Runner Up
1990 - Mclaren - World Champion
1991 - Mclaren - World Champion
1992 - Mclaren - (Bar Pace)
1993 - Mclaren - (Bar Pace) Runner Up

[kenneth]

Wez, on May 9 2006, 01:41 PM, said:

Senna was greater than Prost!!!
Those stats dont mean a thing because Prost raced a larger percentage of his career in more competitive cars...
Senna's career:
1984 - Toleman (Super Aguri Pace)
1985 - Lotus (Red Bull Pace)
1986 - Lotus (Red Bull Pace)
1987 - Lotus (Toyota Pace)
1988 - Mclaren - World Champion
1989 - Mclaren - Runner Up
1990 - Mclaren - World Champion
1991 - Mclaren - World Champion
1992 - Mclaren - (Bar Pace)
1993 - Mclaren - (Bar Pace) Runner Up

AGREEEEE...

[Ctrl300]

Wez, on May 9 2006, 09:41 PM, said:

Senna was greater than Prost!!!
Those stats dont mean a thing because Prost raced a larger percentage of his career in more competitive cars...
Senna's career:
1984 - Toleman (Super Aguri Pace)
1985 - Lotus (Red Bull Pace)
1986 - Lotus (Red Bull Pace)
1987 - Lotus (Toyota Pace)
1988 - Mclaren - World Champion
1989 - Mclaren - Runner Up
1990 - Mclaren - World Champion
1991 - Mclaren - World Champion
1992 - Mclaren - (Bar Pace)
1993 - Mclaren - (Bar Pace) Runner Up

Bullshjit.
All Senna's WDC's where all in a superior car. Also, Lotus was a big team and had a car far, far more potent than anything either Toyota or Honda has ever produced. Since Senna was unable to beat Prost in 85 and 86, or Piquet in 87, he opted to join Mclaren in 88. He beat Prost in 88 but Prost beat him in 89. Remeber that Prost absolutely raped Lauda in 85 and Keke in 86 in the same machinery.
After Sena joined the team he brought with him to much hostility for the quiet and easy mannered Prost so he opted to go to Ferrari. This was a huge mistake, and had he stayed at McLaren he would have kicked Sennas arse again in 90 and 91. The Professor was better, end of story.
Head2Head Comparison
(141 Races)  Alain Prost  Ayrton Senna
Wins            41 (29.08%)  37 (26.24%)
Poles           23 (16.31%)  60 (42.55%)
Podiums       88 (62.41%)  72 (51.06%)
Points           625              558
Retirements  32 (22.70%)  43 (30.50%)
Fastest Laps  0 (0.00%)  0 (0.00%)
Finished Higher  68           62

Edited by Ctrl300, 09 May 2006 - 02:50 PM.

[Wez]

Ctrl300, on May 9 2006, 03:58 PM, said:

Bullshjit.
All Senna's WDC's where all in a superior car. Also, Lotus was a big team and had a car far, far more potent than anything either Toyota or Honda has ever produced. Since Senna was unable to beat Prost in 85 and 86, or Piquet in 87, he opted to join Mclaren in 88. He beat Prost in 88 but Prost beat him in 89. Remeber that Prost absolutely raped Lauda in 85 and Keke in 86 in the same machinery.
After Sena joined the team he brought with him to much hostility for the quiet and easy mannered Prost so he opted to go to Ferrari. This was a huge mistake, and had he stayed at McLaren he would have kicked Sennas arse again in 90 and 91. The Professor was better, end of story.
Head2Head Comparison
(141 Races)  Alain Prost  Ayrton Senna
Wins            41 (29.08%)  37 (26.24%)
Poles           23 (16.31%)  60 (42.55%)
Podiums       88 (62.41%)  72 (51.06%)
Points           625              558
Retirements  32 (22.70%)  43 (30.50%)
Fastest Laps  0 (0.00%)  0 (0.00%)
Finished Higher  68           62

I completely disagree.... The Lotus of 85, 86 & 87 Was most definately quite a bit slower than the Mclarens & Williams driver by Prost & Piquet of that time.
Im not denying Prost wasnt good... He was a better driver than both Lauda & Rosberg(The worst world champion of all time), Prost just wasnt better than Senna in my opinion.

As for the head to head it must also be taking into account the undoubtedly Prost was in the peak of his career with a lot more experiance when the two were team mates. Senna died in the peak of his career.

[UrKo]

johndifo, on May 8 2006, 02:06 PM, said:

MS similar to Prost
FA similar to Senna, well not quite but the atitude is the same

Nelson Piquet was also a great driver

Senna on rain was just unbeatable, his first GP win at Estoril with an inferior car, was like a boat race.

How can you compare MS with Prost??? I dont see any similarity.

[Autumnpuma]

UrKo, on May 9 2006, 09:01 AM, said:

How can you compare MS with Prost??? I dont see any similarity.

Both are 'thinking' drivers. Prost was called 'The Professor' because he approached every aspect of a race, from car set-up to racing line, with a mathematical precision unmatched by his competition. MS is the same way. You can see this by his inspection of his rival's cars after a race. Also, MS has the presence-of-mind to adjust brake bias at least three times each lap during a race. (Massa tried this a few times and ended up spinning). There are numerous other instances of MS thinking along the same lines as Prost, but for the sake of time I just gave a few.

Senna, by comparison, drove with an instinctual 'passion'. This is not to say Senna didn't do his share of 'thinking' as his intelligence is well-known, but during a race it was almost all instinct for him. This is proven by Senna's own words. He describes his fastest laps as almost an 'out-of-body' experience. This is the hallmark of an 'instinctual' driver.

It's interesting to note that all three of them would blip the throttle on apex; not many drivers these days do that. It results in a faster exit speed and, in effect, lengthens out the straights following a turn. Prost's apex-accelleration is precise; you can hear it, lap after lap, nailing the correct revs like a computer would. You can look at the graphics in current races to see MS also nails his apex-accelleration with mathematical perfection.

Edited by Autumnpuma, 09 May 2006 - 06:30 PM.

[Ctrl300]

Autumnpuma, on May 10 2006, 04:18 AM, said:

Both are 'thinking' drivers. Prost was called 'The Professor' because he approached every aspect of a race, from car set-up to racing line, with a mathematical precision unmatched by his competition. MS is the same way. You can see this by his inspection of his rival's cars after a race. Also, MS has the presence-of-mind to adjust brake bias at least three times each lap during a race. (Massa tried this a few times and ended up spinning). There are numerous other instances of MS thinking along the same lines as Prost, but for the sake of time I just gave a few.

Senna, by comparison, drove with an instinctual 'passion'. This is not to say Senna didn't do his share of 'thinking' as his intelligence is well-known, but during a race it was almost all instinct for him. This is proven by Senna's own words. He describes his fastest laps as almost an 'out-of-body' experience. This is the hallmark of an 'instinctual' driver.

It's interesting to note that all three of them would blip the throttle on apex; not many drivers these days do that. It results in a faster exit speed and, in effect, lengthens out the straights following a turn. Prost's apex-accelleration is precise; you can hear it, lap after lap, nailing the correct revs like a computer would. You can look at the graphics in current races to see MS also nails his apex-accelleration with mathematical perfection.

Again you produce a brillian p®ost Autumnpuma!

Wez, you must remember that the Ferrari of 90 and 91 (this car was a disaster) was far inferior to the McLaren, and the McLaren or 85 and 86 was far from being the class of the field (it just appeared to be at times due to the brilliance of the Professor). In 86 the Williams was the class of the field, yet Prost came out on top ahead of Mansell and Piquet (three points sepereated the top three), and he was 50 points ahead of his teammate Keke. In 90 he trounced Mansell in the same car, and lost out to Senna who was driving the superb McLaren. In 91 the Ferrari was a RedBull and he was nowhere to be seen.
The Professor was the greatest ever! End of story.

Edited by Ctrl300, 10 May 2006 - 01:53 AM.

[AutoRacer5]

Senna's 1991 machinery wasnt as superior as the Williams. If it werent for reliability, Mansell might have won his first in 1991. 1986 if he had made the pass in Mexico City or if the tire had held up.

[Autumnpuma]

Ctrl300, on May 9 2006, 06:52 PM, said:

Again you produce a brillian p®ost Autumnpuma!

[silvermachine]

Senna by loong way..

[Ctrl300]

silvermachine, on May 10 2006, 07:49 PM, said:

Senna by loong way..

And you base that hilarious statement on what exactly?