41 replies to this topic

[ykickamoocow]

This is a video which was posted on the speedtv forum so im posting it here. It is a very informative video on the effects of understeer and oversteer on a modern day formula 1 car.



Im very supprised that Red Bull let Martin Brundle drive David Coulthard's F1 car since those cars are really expensive and most teams wouldnt let him near the c#ckpit.

[cavallino]

Why not, he's an ex F1 driver. Hell Ron Dennis let Murray Walker drive a Mclaren.

[ykickamoocow]

cavallino, on Jun 18 2006, 06:24 PM, said:

Why not, he's an ex F1 driver. Hell Ron Dennis let Murray Walker drive a Mclaren.

True, and i suppose it also was helped by the fact that Brundle is Coulthard's manager.

[Autumnpuma]

Brundle was a very good F1 driver. Not upper eschelon, but in the top ten for talent.

[monza gorilla]

Yes. His success in other forms of motorsport confirms that. Unfortunately he managed the trick of being in the right team at the wrong time. More than once.

[Autumnpuma]

monza gorilla, on Jun 19 2006, 02:00 PM, said:

Yes. His success in other forms of motorsport confirms that. Unfortunately he managed the trick of being in the right team at the wrong time. More than once.

Indeed. I was impressed by how he handled the current car in that video, in the rain. I found that far more enjoyable than the commentary.

[jackgarrett]

i thought that hes real oversteer driver, and its looks like he cant handle understeer (even with a underseer car he's not confident and cant drive understeer.

[Ctrl300]

Autumnpuma, on Jun 20 2006, 06:32 AM, said:

Brundle was a very good F1 driver

When you sober up.....

[Autumnpuma]

Ctrl300, on Sep 2 2006, 11:13 AM, said:

When you sober up.....

  

[genrup]

Don�t forget that he hasn`t been in a F1-car for a number of years, and F1 has changed a lot i the last 10 years.

[monza gorilla]

This is how he used to deal with understeer.

Unfortunately it involves breaking your ankles.

[BradSpeedMan]

monza gorilla, on Jan 12 2007, 12:57 PM, said:

Unfortunately it involves breaking your ankles.

They were daredevils back then, it was an honour to die as a racer......

[Autumnpuma]

monza gorilla, on Jan 12 2007, 02:57 AM, said:

This is how he used to deal with understeer.

Unfortunately it involves breaking your ankles.

[Jean Todt]

Okay! A question to anyone who can answer me. As Brundle explained that, for oversteer you need to reduce the rear wing angle, so does it mean it increases the top speed of the car? What kind of set up will a driver use in his car if he were to drive for US GP?

[Autumnpuma]

abbas_gear, on Jan 13 2007, 09:35 AM, said:

Okay! A question to anyone who can answer me. As Brundle explained that, for oversteer you need to reduce the rear wing angle, so does it mean it increases the top speed of the car?

Yes.

abbas_gear, on Jan 13 2007, 09:35 AM, said:

What kind of set up will a driver use in his car if he were to drive for US GP?

I've always heard it was a compromise setting. I don't know exactly what each team does. Villeneuve would set his car up for speed, then trust his abilities to handle the twisties.

[Quiet One]

Autumnpuma, on Jan 13 2007, 09:38 PM, said:

Villeneuve would set his car up for speed, then trust his abilities to handle the twisties*.

*TRANSLATION: would bump against the walls/other cars/anything solid in the hopes that his car would bounce back on track. Ralf uses that same theory, with much worse results.

[Autumnpuma]

Quiet One, on Jan 13 2007, 01:51 PM, said:

*TRANSLATION: would bump against the walls/other cars/anything solid in the hopes that his car would bounce back on track. Ralf uses that same theory, with much worse results.

Well, Ralfie uses this technique on the hard concrete walls of the banking, going a##-first, and that's less-effective........

Edited by Autumnpuma, 13 January 2007 - 09:54 PM.

[Quiet One]

Autumnpuma, on Jan 13 2007, 09:54 PM, said:

Well, Ralfie uses this technique on the hard concrete walls of the banking, going a##-first, and that's less-effective........

...and JV still got some things from his father namely, some brilliant displays when he could remain focused on the race (I always thought that lack of concentration in the long-term was the core of all of JVs problems on track) while Ralf's only thing he got from his brother was that "cat that ate the mouse" smile.

[Autumnpuma]

Quiet One, on Jan 13 2007, 02:11 PM, said:

...and JV still got some things from his father namely, some brilliant displays when he could remain focused on the race (I always thought that lack of concentration in the long-term was the core of all of JVs problems on track) while Ralf's only thing he got from his brother was that "cat that ate the mouse" smile.

JV got his bad eyesight from his father. I worship Gilles but I must say, some of his crashes (including his fatal one at Zolder) seemed like he misjudged distances a bit. Could this be his eyesight going? I don't know. JV certainly has issues with eyesight, and so does Ralfie (both wear contact lenses). I'm not an optometrist, but I wonder about driver's who wear contacts....are the contacts there to correct the eye's cornea being misshaped/ If so, has anyone done testing on how the cornea alters shape under the g-force acceleration and cornering of F1? These are things I don't know and could explain why JV and Ralfie have gotten to be worse drivers as the years go by. Perhaps the cornea (or the eye itself) isn't as flexible as it was when they were younger....perhaps under g-force loads the cornea (ro the whole eye) distorts a bit and makes the contact lenses less effective?

EDIT: My wife, who wears contacts, relates that her contacts sometimes slip a bit during roller-coaster rides and I wonder if that also might be happening to Ralfie and JV.

Edited by Autumnpuma, 13 January 2007 - 10:45 PM.

[Quiet One]

Autumnpuma, on Jan 13 2007, 10:40 PM, said:

JV got his bad eyesight from his father. I worship Gilles but I must say, some of his crashes (including his fatal one at Zolder) seemed like he misjudged distances a bit. Could this be his eyesight going? I don't know. JV certainly has issues with eyesight, and so does Ralfie (both wear contact lenses). I'm not an optometrist, but I wonder about driver's who wear contacts....are the contacts there to correct the eye's cornea being misshaped/ If so, has anyone done testing on how the cornea alters shape under the g-force acceleration and cornering of F1? These are things I don't know and could explain why JV and Ralfie have gotten to be worse drivers as the years go by. Perhaps the cornea isn't as flexible as it was when they were younger....perhaps under g-force loads the cornea distorts a bit and makes the contact lenses less effective?

Interesting theory. Yet, I happen to work for an American laboratory specialized in eye-care products so I've been to a fair share of conferences and training courses on vision related problems. No, I am no expert for I work in the imports/exports department so my knowledge is very very limited. Yet, from what I could see on the eye it is a lot tougher organ than it might seem at first glance (no pun intended). The eye can handle serious injuries and great deals of pressure without any significant effects during normal surgery so I doubt G-forces have much impact on eyesight Here is where Bruce with his knowledge of combat pilots subject to severe G-forces during carrier launches might be of help! That does not mean that severe stress cannot have an impact on eyesight. All in all, you gave me something very interesting to consider. I will ask around at work and see what I can find out.

[Autumnpuma]

Quiet One, on Jan 13 2007, 02:52 PM, said:

Interesting theory. Yet, I happen to work for an American laboratory specialized in eye-care products so I've been to a fair share of conferences and training courses on vision related problems. No, I am no expert for I work in the imports/exports department so my knowledge is very very limited. Yet, from what I could see on the eye it is a lot tougher organ than it might seem at first glance (no pun intended). The eye can handle serious injuries and great deals of pressure without any significant effects during normal surgery so I doubt G-forces have much impact on eyesight Here is where Bruce with his knowledge of combat pilots subject to severe G-forces during carrier launches might be of help! That does not mean that severe stress cannot have an impact on eyesight. All in all, you gave me something very interesting to consider. I will ask around at work and see what I can find out.

I'm not an expert either. If you ask around, be sure to add this important point: the drivers are dealing with two hours of sustained g-forces that alter between directions (acceleration and cornering). I feel it's that sustained force that is the issue....

[monza gorilla]

Didn't Paul Tracy wear his glasses to race?

[c21]

monza gorilla, on Jan 14 2007, 04:22 PM, said:

Didn't Paul Tracy wear his glasses to race?

Yes he does, I think Sebastien Bourdais does too

[monza gorilla]

In that case I wonder if contacts are more of a vanity thing. Or is it a misting issue?

[c21]

monza gorilla, on Jan 14 2007, 04:30 PM, said:

In that case I wonder if contacts are more of a vanity thing. Or is it a misting issue?

Interesting point.

[monza gorilla]

My specs to tend to mist up on a bike unless I have the visor open a little, so maybe that's the reason that Jacques and Ralf use contacts. They both wear glasses out of the car. Or is there a safety thing? You wouldn't want your Gucci's embedded in your face after a shunt.

[Autumnpuma]

monza gorilla, on Jan 14 2007, 07:40 AM, said:

My specs to tend to mist up on a bike unless I have the visor open a little, so maybe that's the reason that Jacques and Ralf use contacts. They both wear glasses out of the car. Or is there a safety thing? You wouldn't want your Gucci's embedded in your face after a shunt.

My wife tells me that glasses tend to distort around the periphery. She also says that there's a marked improvement with her contacts in regards to a non-distorted view. I think the younger drivers are alright with glasses/contacts but as they get older perhaps they shouldn't be racing......

....Paul Tracy wears contacts (except at the odd race where maybe his eyes are too bloodshot from the drunken parties to get the contacts in). Bourdais does indeed wear glasses inside the c#ckpit most times.

[pabloh20]

Autumnpuma, on Jan 14 2007, 06:15 PM, said:

....Paul Tracy wears contacts (except at the odd race where maybe his eyes are too bloodshot from the drunken parties to get the contacts in). Bourdais does indeed wear glasses inside the c#ckpit most times.

Was that always true of Paul Tracy, Mike?  The only reason I ask is because when I used to watch Indycar (when Mansell was in it), Paul Tracy always seemed to have his glasses on when he got out of the car - I suppose he could have had his glasses on a couple of times and I just presumed he wore them all the time.  

I think it was Murray Walker (the real one not the TF1 imitation   ) that reckoned part of an F1 driver's make up was the exceptional sight they seemed to have.  Think he formed that opinion after he was driven on public roads by Senna........

I have never tried contacts, so I can't comment, but I would have thought wearing glasses would cause some problems regarding misting, movement, etc, which is why it surprised me to see Paul Tracy wear them in the c#ckpit.  The other explanation for the perceived decline in JV and RS driving skills, Mike, is that perhaps their eyes have got worse?  I know when I first got glasses, it was purely to sharpen very distant objects, whereas now the windscreen isn't even sharp!      Although, I hasten to add, it is surprising how quickly things become blurred, even if your eyes aren't that bad!

[Autumnpuma]

pabloh20, on Jan 15 2007, 08:28 AM, said:

Was that always true of Paul Tracy, Mike?  The only reason I ask is because when I used to watch Indycar (when Mansell was in it), Paul Tracy always seemed to have his glasses on when he got out of the car - I suppose he could have had his glasses on a couple of times and I just presumed he wore them all the time.  

I was more referring to current ChampCar than vintage CART. I honestly can't remember if Tracy wore glasses back then. He may have as contact lens technology wasn't as good as today...?

pabloh20, on Jan 15 2007, 08:28 AM, said:

I think it was Murray Walker (the real one not the TF1 imitation   ) that reckoned part of an F1 driver's make up was the exceptional sight they seemed to have.  Think he formed that opinion after he was driven on public roads by Senna........

I'm not sure I buy that. Ralfie, Bourdais, Tracy and JV were all championship winning drivers who had less-than-perfect eyesight, so in my way of thinking, perfect eyesight is less a factor than, say, reflexes and that undefined ability to 'slow down time'.

pabloh20, on Jan 15 2007, 08:28 AM, said:

I have never tried contacts, so I can't comment, but I would have thought wearing glasses would cause some problems regarding misting, movement, etc, which is why it surprised me to see Paul Tracy wear them in the c#ckpit.  The other explanation for the perceived decline in JV and RS driving skills, Mike, is that perhaps their eyes have got worse?  I know when I first got glasses, it was purely to sharpen very distant objects, whereas now the windscreen isn't even sharp!      Although, I hasten to add, it is surprising how quickly things become blurred, even if your eyes aren't that bad!

Maybe. I don't wear glasses (yet...) so I can't really say.

[monza gorilla]

Autumnpuma, on Jan 15 2007, 07:17 PM, said:

I was more referring to current ChampCar than vintage CART. I honestly can't remember if Tracy wore glasses back then. He may have as contact lens technology wasn't as good as today...?

I remember him putting his specs on after his helmet, same as I've always done. I'm not sure about the distortion thing, but then my glasses aren't very strong so perhaps it gets worse the thicker the lens.
Edit: Of course it does - simple refraction. Schoolboy physics. Forgetful gorilla.

Edited by monza gorilla, 15 January 2007 - 07:42 PM.