28 replies to this topic

[Autumnpuma]

I'm not very computer savvy, so this is directed at those forum members that know a diode from a processor.

Every time TC has been banned, there have always been at least one team that figures out how to get around that ban and run with TC. Microsoft is now going to make a standard ECU that will, as we're told by the FIA, police this issue far better than it ever has been.

Anything with a silicon brain can be hacked. Anything with an electric circuit can be circumvented. Am I wrong? Will Microsoft be able to actually stop the use of TC or other electronic driver aids?

[Quiet One]

Electonically, you can't prevent them to be hacked. Apple's iPhone has just been cracked by some young kid, just imagine what can the most powerful car manufacturers do!
They could place protecting seals and such to prevent illegal tampering, but that's about it. And even those can be overridden.

Good news is, telemetry and super slow cameras are everywhere so I guess the FIA can spot the cheaters, if the want to.

[goferrarigo]

Quiet One, on Aug 30 2007, 06:51 PM, said:

Electonically, you can't prevent them to be hacked. Apple's iPhone has just been cracked by some young kid, just imagine what can the most powerful car manufacturers do!
They could place protecting seals and such to prevent illegal tampering, but that's about it. And even those can be overridden.

Good news is, telemetry and super slow cameras are everywhere so I guess the FIA can spot the cheaters, if they want to.

Only the leading teams are prosecuted.....

[Autumnpuma]

Quiet One, on Aug 30 2007, 04:51 PM, said:

Electonically, you can't prevent them to be hacked. Apple's iPhone has just been cracked by some young kid, just imagine what can the most powerful car manufacturers do!
They could place protecting seals and such to prevent illegal tampering, but that's about it. And even those can be overridden.

Good news is, telemetry and super slow cameras are everywhere so I guess the FIA can spot the cheaters, if the want to.

I agree. At one time Senna stood beside the track, listening to Michael Schumacher's engine as his Benetton flashed past. Listening for any sign of TC. Ah, the old days are gone...

goferrarigo, on Aug 30 2007, 06:12 PM, said:

Only the leading teams are prosecuted.....

Probably because they are the only ones who could actually win. Even by cheating, Honda, say, wouldn't win a race (it takes an act of [z]insert Deity[/z] for that).

[aussief1]

Autumnpuma, on Aug 31 2007, 09:28 AM, said:

I'm not very computer savvy, so this is directed at those forum members that know a diode from a processor.

Every time TC has been banned, there have always been at least one team that figures out how to get around that ban and run with TC. Microsoft is now going to make a standard ECU that will, as we're told by the FIA, police this issue far better than it ever has been.

Anything with a silicon brain can be hacked. Anything with an electric circuit can be circumvented. Am I wrong? Will Microsoft be able to actually stop the use of TC or other electronic driver aids?

McLaren are working in conjunction with McLaren Technology in the development of the ECU. The teams last time I heard where quite unhappy with what been happing in regards to this, some of the teams have stated that their cars will not even run with this Microsoft / McLaren ECU, and the teams also believe that McLaren will have an unfair advantage.

I agree with the teams, I can't understand why the FIA didn't give the contract to an outside company with no vested interested in the sport or F1 at very least.

Quiet One, on Aug 31 2007, 09:51 AM, said:

Electonically, you can't prevent them to be hacked. Apple's iPhone has just been cracked by some young kid, just imagine what can the most powerful car manufacturers do!
They could place protecting seals and such to prevent illegal tampering, but that's about it. And even those can be overridden.
Good news is, telemetry and super slow cameras are everywhere so I guess the FIA can spot the cheaters, if the want to.

The FIA could swap the ECU's between cars in each of the sessions (The ECU's are standard issue so unplugging it from a Ferrari and walking over to the BMW-Sauber garage and plugging it in the BMW should no problems). That would be one certain way to prevent the teams tampering. They could be helping the enemy!!! Or do as Andres said and make them a sealed unit.

[DOF_power]

Autumnpuma, on Aug 31 2007, 02:28 AM, said:

I'm not very computer savvy, so this is directed at those forum members that know a diode from a processor.

Every time TC has been banned, there have always been at least one team that figures out how to get around that ban and run with TC. Microsoft is now going to make a standard ECU that will, as we're told by the FIA, police this issue far better than it ever has been.

Anything with a silicon brain can be hacked. Anything with an electric circuit can be circumvented. Am I wrong? Will Microsoft be able to actually stop the use of TC or other electronic driver aids?

1] The ECU CAN BE hacked (and it will be).
2] There are other ways to put back TC besides ECU.
3] The (big) teams will have one form or another of TC (rest assured as they are working hard right now on it), and policing it is NOT really possible.


The real approach would be to limit, not ban TC.
The problems why TC is used:
- groved tires
- narrowtrack (1.80 m vs. the old  2.00 m)
- passive transversal suspensions of today  (that's right, not vertical but transversal) witch are incapable of properly following the track (over bumps, non-flat corner/exits).


Meaning increassing mecanical grip by a:

a] widetrack + slicks + active suspensions formula alongside legal TC

or (the propossed/hinted post 2011 formula of Max)

b] front stabilizor + AWD + TC + ESC + ABS

both would reduce the role of TC, the only realistic choice.

[FUschumi]

aussief1, on Aug 31 2007, 10:20 AM, said:

McLaren are working in conjunction with McLaren Technology in the development of the ECU. The teams last time I heard where quite unhappy with what been happing in regards to this, some of the teams have stated that their cars will not even run with this Microsoft / McLaren ECU, and the teams also believe that McLaren will have an unfair advantage.

I agree with the teams, I can't understand why the FIA didn't give the contract to an outside company with no vested interested in the sport or F1 at very least.

The FIA could swap the ECU's between cars in each of the sessions (The ECU's are standard issue so unplugging it from a Ferrari and walking over to the BMW-Sauber garage and plugging it in the BMW should no problems). That would be one certain way to prevent the teams tampering. They could be helping the enemy!!! Or do as Andres said and make them a sealed unit.

2007 - Bridgestone - Advantage to Ferrari
2008 - Standard ECU - Advantage to McLaren
2009 - ???
2010 - ???

What will happen in the future?

[David Adams]

I would presume a sealed unit is the way they will go.

One could argue that the engine freeze is similar, the FIA will surely trust that teams are putting the correct engines in - I would imagine its a huge task to check 20 engines at the end of every race/qualifying to ensure they match 100% what they presented the FIA with last year.

Will be similar with TC, but as someone above said, with slow-mo's sound sensitive equipment and the FIA displayed graphics, they would know accurately if a team was circumventing this rule.

[DOF_power]

No we wouldn't.

[Autumnpuma]

I tend to agree with DOF here. I doubt we'd be able to police it. I've heard nothing on this forum or in other places that convinces me the ECU will ensure no team uses TC.

[james]

We could always take it back to a 100% mechanical throttle.

[DOF_power]

Autumnpuma, on Sep 1 2007, 03:07 AM, said:

I tend to agree with DOF here. I doubt we'd be able to police it. I've heard nothing on this forum or in other places that convinces me the ECU will ensure no team uses TC.

The only thing to do is to reduce the dependence on it by fixing the fundamental flaws of why cars today use TC so much.
Meaning:

- tires; slicks instead of grovees
- suspensions; either passive (like hydropneumatic, hydragas) or active, but witch must follow the track surface and absorb shock verticaly not transversal like today
- aerodynamics; inverted-wing ground-effects (not to be confussed with the mini-skirt wingless ground-effects cars witch caused problems in the 1980s)

[rodders47]

Just remove the BLOODY computer................Simple.............No computer control over Engine ....Gearbox........Differential............ steering...........Throttle...........  etc etc etc etc

Solves the problem. go back to MECHANICAL connection for EVERYTHING- and lets all watch the TALENTED drivers "Strut Their Stuff "on Track

Would surely sort out a lot of the current "HEROES"

[DOF_power]

>



^ Pre 1968 solutions will solve nothing, only make things worse.
Such poor thinking is why we're in this mess in the first place.
And it solves nothing as (the big) teams will use hidden-illegal aids and other devices.


If F1 cars go all mecanical (and I hope you're not as naive to think in the good old 1980s the likes Lauda, Piquet, Mansell, Prost and Senna drove all mecanical cars), they'll lose much of their performance. They even be ridiculed, without wings, by F3 cars.

Besides most want this F1 to be the pinnacle of motor-sport not some retarded niche series. And this implies the most advanced race cars in the world.

Edited by DOF_Renault_BMW, 04 September 2007 - 08:23 AM.

[pabloh20]

Autumnpuma, on Sep 1 2007, 01:07 AM, said:

I tend to agree with DOF here. I doubt we'd be able to police it. I've heard nothing on this forum or in other places that convinces me the ECU will ensure no team uses TC.

I am also with you on this one.  The problem with policing it is, by the very nature, you have to be reactive as it's very hard to be proactive in such situations.  By being reactive, you're already on the backfoot.

[pabloh20]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 4 2007, 09:21 AM, said:

>
^ Pre 1968 solutions will solve nothing, only make things worse.
Such poor thinking is why we're in this mess in the first place.
And it solves nothing as (the big) teams will use hidden-illegal aids and other devices.
If F1 cars go all mecanical (and I hope you're not as naive to think in the good old 1980s the likes Lauda, Piquet, Mansell, Prost and Senna drove all mecanical cars), they'll lose much of their performance. They even be ridiculed, without wings, by F3 cars.

Besides most want this F1 to be the pinnacle of motor-sport not some retarded niche series. And this implies the most advanced race cars in the world.

No, you want that, not everybody does.

Edited by pabloh20, 04 September 2007 - 11:43 AM.

[goferrarigo]

pabloh20, on Sep 4 2007, 06:41 AM, said:

No, you want that, not everybody does.

Bernie wants it....

[DOF_power]

>



^ According to the FIA AMD poll, 91% do want it.

And whenever I talk to others who watch F1 around me, friends-family, they watch it cause its better (cars technology and so forth).
they don't the detail of making them better and aren't bothered by the lack of over-steering, or aids, or for some even the lack of overtaking if their favorites win.

The tifosi are the worse, as even the most boring race a Ferrari wins is exciting/terrific/great, and even the best/exciting race where Ferrari loses is boring/horrible.

I've even tried to make some of them watch the WTCC, DTM, Le Mans/ALMS/LMS, but to no avail cause they consider the cars retarded crap.

[DOF_power]

goferrarigo, on Sep 4 2007, 03:42 PM, said:

Bernie wants it....

And for all his flaws he's not stupid to want it.

Should its pinnacle factor be gone, F1 will implode.

Just like it happened before. After the techno madness/crazy era of the 1930s silver arrows, came the implosion of the 1950s/60s/early 70s.

[pabloh20]

goferrarigo, on Sep 4 2007, 01:42 PM, said:

Bernie wants it....

Bernie wants to make money and I don't think he's interested in F1 as a spectacle as long as it doesn't hurt his profits.

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 4 2007, 02:30 PM, said:

>
^ According to the FIA AMD poll, 91% do want it.

And whenever I talk to others who watch F1 around me, friends-family, they watch it cause its better (cars technology and so forth).
they don't the detail of making them better and aren't bothered by the lack of over-steering, or aids, or for some even the lack of overtaking if their favorites win.

The tifosi are the worse, as even the most boring race a Ferrari wins is exciting/terrific/great, and even the best/exciting race where Ferrari loses is boring/horrible.

I've even tried to make some of them watch the WTCC, DTM, Le Mans/ALMS/LMS, but to no avail cause they consider the cars retarded crap.

Every poll I have ever seen wants more excitement and more overtaking in F1, I have yet to see any poll saying anything to the contrary.  How can your friends/family watch it because it's 'better'?  Better in what sense?  What is the point of seeing your favourite win, if there is no real achievement to the win?  If they want to watch F1 then fine, but there is very little that is 'better' about it these days.

I want the best racing with hopefully the best drivers, I am not bothered how we get there.

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 4 2007, 02:35 PM, said:

And for all his flaws he's not stupid to want it.

Should its pinnacle factor be gone, F1 will implode.

Just like it happened before. After the techno madness/crazy era of the 1930s silver arrows, came the implosion of the 1950s/60s/early 70s.

F1 will implode anyway at this rate, unless something is done.  It may take time, but it will implode and I don't think it will be anything to do with the pinnacle factor, rather the simple fact that racing should be racing, not a precession.

Edited by pabloh20, 04 September 2007 - 02:24 PM.

[DOF_power]

pabloh20, on Sep 4 2007, 05:23 PM, said:

Bernie wants to make money and I don't think he's interested in F1 as a spectacle as long as it doesn't hurt his profits.

Bernie's greed has actualy made F1 big and successful. He might be greedy but he's not stupid.

Quote

Every poll I have ever seen wants more excitement and more overtaking in F1, I have yet to see any poll saying anything to the contrary.  How can your friends/family watch it because it's 'better'?  Better in what sense?  What is the point of seeing your favourite win, if there is no real achievement to the win?  If they want to watch F1 then fine, but there is very little that is 'better' about it these days.

I want the best racing with hopefully the best drivers, I am not bothered how we get there.

They're not mutualy exclusive. Cars could more advanced, and put a better show.
And people want overtaking when their favorite is behind, not when he's ahead.
If you F1 will ever be an overtaking spree, you're wrong.
And if by best racing you mean most overtakings, then F1 was never the best nor will it ever.

Quote

F1 will implode anyway at this rate, unless something is done.  It may take time, but it will implode and I don't think it will be anything to do with the pinnacle factor, rather the simple fact that racing should be racing, not a precession.

F1 is doing incredibly well right now. Probably never better.
The brits go to watch Hamilton in almost record numbers to win incredibly boring races. Ditto for spaniards and Alonso.
Ditto for the poles and other eastern europeans for Kubica.
And the tifosi cheer for Ferrari as ever.


BTW the overtaking comitee has made proposals for 2009 to change things and improve the show.

[pabloh20]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 4 2007, 04:53 PM, said:

Bernie's greed has actualy made F1 big and successful. He might be greedy but he's not stupid.

I never said he was.  However, only when his profits are being hurt will F1 change dramatically, if he is still there of course.

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 4 2007, 04:53 PM, said:

They're not mutualy exclusive. Cars could more advanced, and put a better show.
And people want overtaking when their favorite is behind, not when he's ahead.
If you F1 will ever be an overtaking spree, you're wrong.
And if by best racing you mean most overtakings, then F1 was never the best nor will it ever.

I never said they were mutually exclusive.

Again, you say people in the generic - I want a driver to earn the win, if that means fending off a car that could overtake him, then fine.

And again, I never said I wanted an overtaking spree or that the most overtakings would mean the best racing.  I never once mentioned that relationship.

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 4 2007, 04:53 PM, said:

F1 is doing incredibly well right now. Probably never better.
The brits go to watch Hamilton in almost record numbers to win incredibly boring races. Ditto for spaniards and Alonso.
Ditto for the poles and other eastern europeans for Kubica.
And the tifosi cheer for Ferrari as ever.
BTW the overtaking comitee has made proposals for 2009 to change things and improve the show.

In what sense is F1 doing incredibly well?

[DOF_power]

1] You're confusing Bernie with Max.
Max is responsable for much of the rule mess witch killed the show.
From Bernie I just want Suzuka back.

2] Well sorry, thought you were one of those back to the 50s techno-revisionists.

3] Only some of the audience is interested in the driver(s). Some cheer for both a/several favorite team(s) and a/ driver(s), others just for a (few) team(s). For most part I was a team suporter (still am; Renault and BMW).

4] In what way ?!
Popularity, audience, money.  
I want better more exciting racing.
But I'm a convinced anti-techno-revisionist and I don't this sport to return to being a niche.

[pabloh20]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 4 2007, 08:20 PM, said:

1] You're confusing Bernie with Max.
Max is responsable for much of the rule mess witch killed the show.
From Bernie I just want Suzuka back.

2] Well sorry, thought you were one of those back to the 50s techno-revisionists.

3] Only some of the audience is interested in the driver(s). Some cheer for both a/several favorite team(s) and a/ driver(s), others just for a (few) team(s). For most part I was a team suporter (still am; Renault and BMW).

4] In what way ?!
Popularity, audience, money.  
I want better more exciting racing.
But I'm a convinced anti-techno-revisionist and I don't this sport to return to being a niche.

1. No, I'm not, but I still think Bernie wields considerable power in the world of F1. I may be wrong, but I think if profits were hurt then we may find out how much power.

2. As I have said before, I don't care how we get F1 back to what it once was. If that means active suspension, slicks, etc, then fine, I have no problem with that.  What I don't want, though, is driver aids - I want the driver to actually drive the damn thing using his skills and senses.

3. I understand that people support teams, etc, what I am pointing out to you is that you deal with things in the generic.  So because your family/friends support a team or are interested in F1 because it is the pinnacle, you seem to think everyone is the same.  I am trying to point out that it's not.  I would say the majority of F1 fans I have spoken to outside of the forum support a driver, not a team.  I imagine in Italy, the opposite is true.  However, I know these differences occur and that's why I don't like dealing in the generic.

4. I am sure it is making more money.  Popularity and audience I am not so sure about.  There is an influx of fans due to races being held in countries that didn't have F1 before. How many of these fans will stay after the initial period, though?  Also, is F1 making as much money, is it as popular and are the audiences as good as they could be?  If the racing was better and more exciting, could it be even more popular, profitable, etc?

Edited by pabloh20, 05 September 2007 - 10:16 AM.

[DOF_power]

1] But what do you want from Bernie ?!


2] To what period do we want to go back ?!
The best period in F1 history was the 1980s.
Another great exciting period was the pre WWII/pre F1 GP championship of the 1930s.
The 1950s/60s/much of 1970s were quite boring for most part, unless you consider drifting + accidents + riots + admiring grass and trees as exciting high quality racing.


3] Unless F1 is seen as the pinnacle I don't think people and sponsors and the manufacturers would bother with it.


4] F1 is actually incredibly healthy. The revenues are about 4 billion per year, audiences are good and rising in some countries very well.

"this is money" said:

ITV is expected to have a stronger autumn than in recent years, boosted by soaring viewing figures for Formula 1 racing. This has seen the number of adult viewers rise by 45% year on year to average threem following Lewis Hamilton's success.
http://www.thisismon...mp;in_page_id=3

or

Quote

... according to ViewerTrack statistics, in 2006 the Brazilian Grand Prix figured on the list of ten most-watched sports events of the year. At 83 million, the figure represents a 39 per cent jump over global audiences for the previous year’s Canadian Grand Prix, also a top-ten sporting event.

[pabloh20]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 5 2007, 08:59 PM, said:

1] But what do you want from Bernie ?!
2] To what period do we want to go back ?!
The best period in F1 history was the 1980s.
Another great exciting period was the pre WWII/pre F1 GP championship of the 1930s.
The 1950s/60s/much of 1970s were quite boring for most part, unless you consider drifting + accidents + riots + admiring grass and trees as exciting high quality racing.
3] Unless F1 is seen as the pinnacle I don't think people and sponsors and the manufacturers would bother with it.
4] F1 is actually incredibly healthy. The revenues are about 4 billion per year, audiences are good and rising in some countries very well.
or

1. I want nothing from Bernie.  I have never wanted anything from Bernie.  My only comment about him was that he was in F1 for the money.

2. Does it actually matter?  By saying make F1 one what it once was, I mean a racing series, not a precession series.  If the 80s were best, then fine.  I can't possibly say as I only started watching it seriously in the 80s and those are the years I remember with fondness.  I am sure other people have different views.  And there is absolutely nothing wrong with drifting.

3. You see pinnacle as an in the pinnacle of technology, it's absolute to you, I don't see it like that.  To me pinnacle is just a fictitious ideal, if you like.  Is it the pinnacle if we have the most technologically advanced cars, but no racing becasue it is nigh on impossible to overtake?  Is it the pinnacle if we have really good racing, but don't at least have a smattering of the best drivers?  I know good racing and technology are not mutually exclusive, but you see my point about the perceived pinnacle?

4. We have already had this point.  I said F1 was profitable, I did not say otherwise.  I also said audiences were rising.  However, I asked how many of the new audience will stay once the novelty has worn off, especially if we continue to have 90% of the races like the last one, for example?  I also said how much more money could it make if it was an exciting and we had proper racing?  For example, you say the 80s were the best - how much more money and how much bigger would the audiences be, if the racing was like that again?

[z2z]

i don't think it will be that easy ..

jap_f1_official_tech_report_07.pdf - 0.04MB  

[Elizabeth Sterling]

Can an ECU be hacked? It's likely. However, if you hack a system and then hand it to scrutineering they're likely to notice that it isn't what they gave you in the first place. It's not a matter of working out the password or bypassing it or somesuch, you'd actually have to modify the software significantly. If you think you can do that un-noticed try replacing Windows XP with Windows 95 on someone's computer and see if they spot it.

Edited by Elizabeth Sterling, 25 October 2007 - 11:01 AM.

[Argento Reloaded]

The main problem with mass electronics is they must apply some standard in order to garantee compatibility. Every single DVD producer can modify it´s security algorithm to prevent hacking but unfortunately can´t do it because the new algorithm will make the old players obsolete. Is the same for the ECU and due to it´s std design you can´t hack it! Why? Because is very simple to check out if there is any soft mod on it! One single line of software added or modified and the car should be disqualified!