Monaco

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Oh I don't know, can't you all see it was the Lotus three cars in front's fault! Yep. That and the Mr Whippy Ice Cream Van on the Rascasse. b#####d, I hate him.....

Racing incident, Hammy got a bit over enthusiastic. Didn't pay off. I've driven round that corner in a VW Polo and it was unbe****inglievably tight (on full lock I ran wide and I was only doing about 15 mph). So would not want to be in any of their fireproof undies....

No need to microanalyse - I'm glad that there are people trying to overtake; granted the Maldanado pass a bit "optimistic" but if it is a race like Sunday's compared to last year's snooze-fest I'd have Sunday's any day.

[Caesar 0]

That's a good point and it shows that the driver on front is the one who control what finally happen in any pass attemp.

well, driver in front has to look at driver behind him through two small rear view mirrors and at same time watch the road while driver who is behind can concetrate on attack. lewis made damage to himself in monaco cause every of those overtaking could result with DNF.

[Caesar 0]

Oh I don't know, can't you all see it was the Lotus three cars in front's fault! Yep. That and the Mr Whippy Ice Cream Van on the Rascasse. b#####d, I hate him.....

Racing incident, Hammy got a bit over enthusiastic. Didn't pay off. I've driven round that corner in a VW Polo and it was unbe****inglievably tight (on full lock I ran wide and I was only doing about 15 mph). So would not want to be in any of their fireproof undies....

No need to microanalyse - I'm glad that there are people trying to overtake; granted the Maldanado pass a bit "optimistic" but if it is a race like Sunday's compared to last year's snooze-fest I'd have Sunday's any day.

yes, very true. even massa and maldonado liked it. they said that hamilton's acts made huge impact on them and that they were touched.

[Schumikonen 2]

well, driver in front has to look at driver behind him through two small rear view mirrors and at same time watch the road while driver who is behind can concetrate on attack. lewis made damage to himself in monaco cause every of those overtaking could result with DNF.

That's why you need skills to be in this business, if they can't handle it they should be doing something else, those mirrors are good enough for the rest of the drivers and is the same for everybody sometimes the guy attempting a pass is being followed to like Alonso was, he had to defend and attack at the same time so no excuse for Massa and Maldonado, they made a boo-boo.

[yurp 0]

Michael sized up Lewis from the exit of Mirabeau. Seeing Michael, Lewis gave him room..

Compare this with Massa. He turns in very early. One could argue that he was being opportunistic with Webber's wide approach, but it looks more likely to me that he tries to close the door on Lewis.

So many wrong assumptions and ad-hoc arguments (that were never valid in the past and probably won't be valid ever again after this race) in this thread I don't even know were to begin disagreeing. So I will just disagree with you all, and come back once I get a chance for a night with full rest.

Okay - here's my take...

Re Maldonado - no Lewis wasn't as far up alongside as he was with Schumi. Maldonado HAD to turn in or else miss the turn and go straight into the barriers himself. That was simply an over agressive mve from Hamilton.

Re Massa & the comparison to Schumi...

This is more subtle, so stick with me. Drib's pictures indeed show Massa truning in earlier, but they also show that Hamilton was much further to the left (as we look at it) than Schumi was. Shumi was considerably further to the inside of the corner, so even if Hamilton had turned in early, he couldn't have cut Schumi's move off and by the time they met Schumi would have been fully beside or even infront of Hamilton. Hamilton's positioning put him in line to be hit by Massa as soon as he turned in. Furthermore, you can see Schumi was a tiny bit more advanced when making his move. Only a little, but a little counts.

Now to talk to the second dimension of this discussion which is that Hamilton knew not to turn in and gave Schumi room and so Massa should have too. Unfortunately I find that argument somewhat eronious. Firstly, who is to say that if Hamilton had turned in earlier Schumi wouldn't have backed off? Okay - I think he would have had a sidepod full of Merc by that point, but that's not to say that taking the line around the outside (as Hamilton did) was necessarily the correct decision. This at least gives credence to what Massa did. Next - Massa looks to have fewer options that Lewis because he has a slightly more packed field infront of him with a RB right infront of him somewhat dictating the line he is taking because it is on the breaks early itself to avoid the back end of the TR. On the Schumi overtake Hamilton has more space to the Renault ahead which in turn has more room to the Williams and thus Hamilton has more of an option to take the wide line.

Next - you can't expect every driver to attack and defend in the same way. Drivers win different races with different styles. Look at Prost/Senna. The difference in styles was extreme, but the results were fairly even. Senna could never expect Prost to drive like him and made allowances for that when sizing up an overtake. Prost the same. Hamilton (and all of us) should know that Massa is not Hamilton and so drives differently. That said, Hamilton should know not to expect the same reaction from Massa as he gave to Schumi and should therefore size up his moves more carefully when passing the somewhat eratic Brazilian.

Last of all - had Hamilton turned in on Schumi, Schumi may well have received a penalty for a causing an avoidable accident. So why should it be incorrect for Hamilton to receive his penalty when Massa did choose to turn in? The fact that Lewis didn't turn in on Schumi is therefore not a valid argument against Hamilton's penalty for his move on Massa. You can say it's an argument for Hamilton being a safer driver than Massa or having better reactions or or generally being better than Massa, but it is NOT an argument against the penalty he received.

It's all very slight and there are arguments against pretty much everything I've said here, but that's how I see it.

So - the penalty for the Maldonado move? yes - it was a penalty. The penalty for the move on Massa? - closer to call, but again yes - it was a penalty.

I agree with the stewards.

[Senna's Ghost 0]

Okay - here's my take...

Re Maldonado - no Lewis wasn't as far up alongside as he was with Schumi. Maldonado HAD to turn in or else miss the turn and go straight into the barriers himself. That was simply an over agressive mve from Hamilton.

Re Massa & the comparison to Schumi...

This is more subtle, so stick with me. Drib's pictures indeed show Massa truning in earlier, but they also show that Hamilton was much further to the left (as we look at it) than Schumi was. Shumi was considerably further to the inside of the corner, so even if Hamilton had turned in early, he couldn't have cut Schumi's move off and by the time they met Schumi would have been fully beside or even infront of Hamilton. Hamilton's positioning put him in line to be hit by Massa as soon as he turned in. Furthermore, you can see Schumi was a tiny bit more advanced when making his move. Only a little, but a little counts.

Now to talk to the second dimension of this discussion which is that Hamilton knew not to turn in and gave Schumi room and so Massa should have too. Unfortunately I find that argument somewhat eronious. Firstly, who is to say that if Hamilton had turned in earlier Schumi wouldn't have backed off? Okay - I think he would have had a sidepod full of Merc by that point, but that's not to say that taking the line around the outside (as Hamilton did) was necessarily the correct decision. This at least gives credence to what Massa did. Next - Massa looks to have fewer options that Lewis because he has a slightly more packed field infront of him with a RB right infront of him somewhat dictating the line he is taking because it is on the breaks early itself to avoid the back end of the TR. On the Schumi overtake Hamilton has more space to the Renault ahead which in turn has more room to the Williams and thus Hamilton has more of an option to take the wide line.

Next - you can't expect every driver to attack and defend in the same way. Drivers win different races with different styles. Look at Prost/Senna. The difference in styles was extreme, but the results were fairly even. Senna could never expect Prost to drive like him and made allowances for that when sizing up an overtake. Prost the same. Hamilton (and all of us) should know that Massa is not Hamilton and so drives differently. That said, Hamilton should know not to expect the same reaction from Massa as he gave to Schumi and should therefore size up his moves more carefully when passing the somewhat eratic Brazilian.

Last of all - had Hamilton turned in on Schumi, Schumi may well have received a penalty for a causing an avoidable accident. So why should it be incorrect for Hamilton to receive his penalty when Massa did choose to turn in? The fact that Lewis didn't turn in on Schumi is therefore not a valid argument against Hamilton's penalty for his move on Massa. You can say it's an argument for Hamilton being a safer driver than Massa or having better reactions or or generally being better than Massa, but it is NOT an argument against the penalty he received.

It's all very slight and there are arguments against pretty much everything I've said here, but that's how I see it.

So - the penalty for the Maldonado move? yes - it was a penalty. The penalty for the move on Massa? - closer to call, but again yes - it was a penalty.

I agree with the stewards.

I agree with all of the above. The positioning of Schumachers car during his overtake of Hamilton is of course crucial. The pictures show that Schumacher was further to the left (his left) and further alongside Hamilton than Hamilton was in relation to Massa. Braking into the slowest corner on the circuit means that overtaking distances and advantages get compressed. Also bear in mind that Schumachers overtake on Lewis was done on lap 1 and a driver is more likely to feel that the race will not be won on the first lap and therefore more willing to concede the corner. Lewis was on also on the prime tyre, Schumacher on the option.

I can see that looking at the image of Massa it looks like he is turn in across Lewis's path, but Lewis is not alongside at that point and he was never going to get alongside from his position. The gap was always going to close.

I watched GP racing since the 1980's and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many successful overtakes have been done at Loews hairpin in that time; one of those being Schumacher's pass in this race. It really isn't a safe overtaking opportunity and if any driver attempts to pass there he must accept the consequences. After all he is the one with the steering wheel in his hands and his feet on the pedals. No one is forcing him to put his car in danger, it's always his decision. Pity he takes someone else out of the race for his misjudgement. But that's racing.

[dribbler 6]

I agree with all of the above. The positioning of Schumachers car during his overtake of Hamilton is of course crucial. The pictures show that Schumacher was further to the left (his left) and further alongside Hamilton than Hamilton was in relation to Massa. Braking into the slowest corner on the circuit means that overtaking distances and advantages get compressed. Also bear in mind that Schumachers overtake on Lewis was done on lap 1 and a driver is more likely to feel that the race will not be won on the first lap and therefore more willing to concede the corner. Lewis was on also on the prime tyre, Schumacher on the option.

I can see that looking at the image of Massa it looks like he is turn in across Lewis's path, but Lewis is not alongside at that point and he was never going to get alongside from his position. The gap was always going to close.

I watched GP racing since the 1980's and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many successful overtakes have been done at Loews hairpin in that time; one of those being Schumacher's pass in this race. It really isn't a safe overtaking opportunity and if any driver attempts to pass there he must accept the consequences. After all he is the one with the steering wheel in his hands and his feet on the pedals. No one is forcing him to put his car in danger, it's always his decision. Pity he takes someone else out of the race for his misjudgement. But that's racing.

Indeed. Agree with all of that. On reflection, I think it was magnificent that Michael decided to make the move on Lewis. Michael would have been only too aware that Hamilton is racey and that a move into Loews is about as risky as it gets. To throw caution to the wind and be so opportunistic was fabulous.

Sorry, some dodgy adjectives there, but it's nice to see some positives in Michael's driving. We're the first to criticise him.

[yurp 0]

Indeed. Agree with all of that. On reflection, I think it was magnificent that Michael decided to make the move on Lewis. Michael would have been only too aware that Hamilton is racey and that a move into Loews is about as risky as it gets. To throw caution to the wind and be so opportunistic was fabulous.

Sorry, some dodgy adjectives there, but it's nice to see some positives in Michael's driving. We're the first to criticise him.

It was indeed a brilliant move by Schumi - very ballsy.

Am I aloud to say that now Cav's not here?

[dribbler 6]

It was indeed a brilliant move by Schumi - very ballsy.

Am I aloud to say that now Cav's not here?

You're allowed to shout aloud.

[yurp 0]

You're allowed to shout aloud.

Gah! What is with my spelling today!

[Max Mosley 2]

*deletes daft joke that doesn't work*

So erm what else to say. Can someone start a poll on whether or not Massa and Maldonado are frigging stupid drivers?

[dribbler 6]

*deletes daft joke that doesn't work*

So erm what else to say. Can someone start a poll on whether or not Massa and Maldonado are frigging stupid drivers?

In Canada, both Felipe and Pastor are sure to give Lewis black looks. They may even use the 'n' word....no, surely they won't mention 'Nando...

[Caesar 0]

when talking about canada.....

Lewis "overtaking" Raikkonen link and the same thing from onboard camera on Mclaren

LOL!

[Max Mosley 2]

In Canada, both Felipe and Pastor are sure to give Lewis black looks. They may even use the 'n' word....no, surely they won't mention 'Nando...

Awesome.

[Gneus7 0]

I'm a big fan but Lewis was clearly at fault