pabloh20 1 Report post Posted June 29, 2013 I think your fondness for Lewis is not letting you understand my point. I've said in almost every post that I truly believe that Lewis is one of the top 3 when it comes to raw talent. Now, you don't hear me saying that about Van Der Garde, or even Button or Webber do you? I am not bashing Lewis, quite the contrary. I found it frustrating that the guy that I consider capable of some of the most masterful drives on track can be so inmature and not because of sudden fits (like Vettel and cucumbers or Alonso and chose your favorite thing to hate about him). If you look at those three dispassionately, you will have to admit that no matter how many anecdotes from both Vettel or Alonso you bring and transform into a proof of whinging or whatever, they still are more stable than Lewis. Lewis seems always upset by things happening outside F1. Vettel and Alonso don't. As for the 2008 and 2009, sorry but you are completely off the mark there. I cannot believe you are seriously arguing that those 2 years were bad because of Alonso. Let's see: R28: A very bad car despite a promising pre season. And improvement came very slow. Yet they managed to finish 4th in the championship certainly not thanks to Nelsinho, who failed to score a single point in 14 of the 18 races (9 of them because of DNFs). Take out Singapore, as I don't want to spend the rest of my life arguing about that race. He still won at Suzuka (from 4th on the grid), he overtook 5 drivers on the last lap at Spa (including Vettel and Kubica...) He did made what for me was his greatest blunder outside McLaren, crashing against Heidfeld at Monaco. Canada was bad luck, Bahrain was caused by a failure in Lewis car...Awful, really? In the last 8 races he was the driver that scored most points. In that year's Renault! Imagine the same happening with one of the Force Indias this year, to understand that. R29: The worst car Renault made in its last reincarnation. Unlike the R28, none of the updates made any difference. If any, it got worse. Still a midfield car, like the Williams now. It managed to finish in the top 10 only 12 times. ELEVEN of those were from Alonso, including the only podium (3rd place at SIngapore) and including a one race ban for the loose wheel at Hungary (not his fault was it?) . Yes it was an awful car and ended up 8th in the WCC. Alonso was awful in 2007. No point in denying it (and yet he still did no worse than Lewis). He was quickly coming back in 2008 and being great again in 2009. All that in awful cars and facing extreme frustration. He had bad results, but he had very few bad races. Now, you may say that it was because of Alonso, not t he car. Then why the other two guys were not even close? Ah yes, because everybody that is beaten by Alonso is merely because they suck (well, In Nelsinho's case you might have a case). So, there's no way to win that discussion. Nelsinho was awful and a cheater. Romain was awful and crashes. Massa had the accident and that is why now he only can count to potato. Trulli was backstabbed by Alonso and Flavio because he was too good. Fisico...I don't know, I ran out of excuses but I am sure somebody will find one. Nah...Alonso is THAT good. Sorry. I am a blind fan, yes. But so is whoever thinks that Alonso is not THAT good. Again and again his colleagues, the team principals and the F1 journalists vote him as the best driver on the grid. Again and again he had shown epic drives in less than epic cars. Chosen best F1 driver in 2 of the 3 years of RBR and Vettel's dominance should give you a hint. You want to find an underperforming year from Alonso? This one is! The car is not quite there, but Alonso doesn't seem to be able to do his magic either and had two costly DNFs. And, again, for all the bad driving for his standards he is still regarded as Vettel's only threat to his Championship. All other drivers would kill to have a bad year like the ones Alonso has! I never said you were bashing him and if anything I have a passing fondness for Lewis because he is a quick driver, whereas you do have blind love for Alonso. So blinding in fact, you are failing to see the comparisons. You rate Alonso, the highest, even by your arguments he had 1 bad season in 2007 where he failed to beat a rookie. Virtually every other time he has beat his team mates. Lewis had 1 bad season in 2011 where he failed to beat a former world champion. All the other times he has never looked like he has been driving any less than 100% or been affected by outside influences when it comes to race day. Even now, he his moaning a lot, but he is still beating his team mate at this moment in time. Whether it continues is a different matter. You can wax lyrical all you like, if you believe Alonso was driving fantastic in 2008 and 2009, then please be my guest. Throw all the facts and figures all you like, but they don't tell all the story. I watched him drive those seasons and he may have had a decent drive now and again, but in my opinion he was not on the ball like he has been before or since. To use your own argument against you, you know how highly I rate Alonso, so I just found it frustrating to see him just dawdling along in that Renault...................... And those arguments about Alonso beating a team mate were exactly the same arguments you used to use against Schumi Now there was a driver who did not have any mental weakness like an Alonso or a Hamilton Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean-Pierre 0 Report post Posted June 29, 2013 Mental weakness at this level? Not sure. I think it is a motivation thing. Lewis, like jenson, might have a hard time to motivate themselves when the car is not to their liking. Which is understandable IMO. In fact, the only weakness I've seen this year is vettel crazy drive against his team mate. Lack of discipline within the team and absence of disciplinary measures against him, which showed weakness also in the managing team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 Absoluetly and also showed that when push comes to shove he will favor himself over the team. They were guranteed 1st and 2nd but Vettel took it apon himself after repeatedly told to back off . Could have been turkey 2010 all over again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 Mental weakness at this level? Not sure. I think it is a motivation thing. Lewis, like jenson, might have a hard time to motivate themselves when the car is not to their liking. Which is understandable IMO. In fact, the only weakness I've seen this year is vettel crazy drive against his team mate. Lack of discipline within the team and absence of disciplinary measures against him, which showed weakness also in the managing team. Absoluetly and also showed that when push comes to shove he will favor himself over the team. They were guranteed 1st and 2nd but Vettel took it apon himself after repeatedly told to back off . Could have been turkey 2010 all over again. Guys, how can you constitute winning as mental weakness? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 When the team tells him to stop doing his fastest laps at the end of the gp. What's the point of risking putting it in the wall just to show of? Not only that Vettel risked taking both him and webber out for glory, when 1st and 2nd is guranteed. It's different when there is no orders and there free to race, but when the team, who gave him that winning car and pays his salary and gave him the opportunity,tells him what needs to be done and then goes against that to satisfy himself. Just wrong,even Schumi didn't do that. He could have won in sepang 1999 when he came back from his broken leg, but he let Irvine win as it was what the team wanted and needed to try and secure the drivers title. Vettel now can't be trusted. What if the team tell him something else in the future? Now they have the fear it will fall on deaf ears due to sebs ego. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 When the team tells him to stop doing his fastest laps at the end of the gp. What's the point of risking putting it in the wall just to show of? Not only that Vettel risked taking both him and webber out for glory, when 1st and 2nd is guranteed. It's different when there is no orders and there free to race, but when the team, who gave him that winning car and pays his salary and gave him the opportunity,tells him what needs to be done and then goes against that to satisfy himself. Just wrong,even Schumi didn't do that. He could have won in sepang 1999 when he came back from his broken leg, but he let Irvine win as it was what the team wanted and needed to try and secure the drivers title. Vettel now can't be trusted. What if the team tell him something else in the future? Now they have the fear it will fall on deaf ears due to sebs ego. You have'nt answered my question. Vettel has won 3 consecutive titles. Why must the team play political games and LET MW win? "There you go Markie Mark, you can have this one as a gift! Don't worry, we'll tell our best driver to play safe and follow you for whatnot laps. It does'nt look like you can win this one without some help from us. Don't worry Markie, we'll gift this one to you". So I'm going to ask you guys again. What constitute winning as mental weakness? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 It's not, but Vettel didn't win 3 titles on his own. That's my point Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 MW: Guys, don't think I can win this one boooo, I'm scared SV is behind me... CH: Just drive damnit, we'll cover your back on this one don't worry!!! MW: It looks like my strategy of backing Vettel into the claws of the Merc drivers has failed... guys. help, I'm getting nervous... CH: Will you shut-up for a second and not worry about the other driver damnit!!! MW:..but but CH: We're gifting you this one dude, stay calm!!! MW: ooohhh soooo scared... CH: Shutup damnits shutup!!!! *Vetttel overtakes Markie* CH: oh dear..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 It's not, but Vettel didn't win 3 titles on his own. That's my point and his team benifitted from him winning, thats what he is suppose to do, not play lackey to a teammate slower than him... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 And what would have happened if seb took them out after he was TOLD to stay put, they got awfully close, plus they were already guranteed 1st and 2nd, just his bitter ego IMO, Redbull would have looked like complete idiots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 And what would have happened if seb took them out after he was TOLD to stay put, they got awfully close, plus they were already guranteed 1st and 2nd, just his bitter ego IMO, Redbull would have looked like complete idiots. He did'nt, in fact it looked like it was MW who wanted him to crash badly by drifting him into the wall... anyway, it seems Seb's actions were justified, he's leading the championship by 36 points... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 mind you Webric, that podium was the funniest I've ever seen!!!! It certainly beat the one where Schumie was playing conductor to the national anthems being played... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 Ohh yeah, loves how webber just came out and bluntly said seb would have protection, glad webber is leaving, if I were him I wouldn't have put up with this as long as he did especially after Malaysia, I would have smacked him in the mouth. Just my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 Ohh yeah, loves how webber just came out and bluntly said seb would have protection, glad webber is leaving, if I were him I wouldn't have put up with this as long as he did especially after Malaysia, I would have smacked him in the mouth. Just my opinion. Webber needed smacking before then with blatently ignoring team order for the last 3 years... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 Bah this all started back in 2010 when webber was in a more mathematical chance to win the tiltle than Vettel. Vettel was consistantly asked if he would help mark as was Redbull. The both basically said no, when this question was asked to Mclaren years ago, the answer was we will back whoever is mathematically in a better position. Because of this Redbull IMO will never become a prestigious team like Ferrari or Mclaren or lotus and that is why rb bosses are split over who will replace webber. Horner wants Raikkonen and marko wants ricciardo or vergne. Marko just like always doesn't want his love child Vettel to be at an inconvenience. Iam an Aussie id love for ricciardo to step in, but Raikkonen needs to come and slap this kid down a couple of notches. His head is so Fnnn big I don't know how Vettel gets his helmet on. If Vettel cared about what his team wants and needs he would have listened in Malaysia simple as that. As for pushing Vettel towards the wall, bloody oath I would do the bloody same as webber asked 3-4 times, is Vettel going to pass me, the team said no so he did what the team ASKED and that was turn down your revs to save the engine and fuel. Vettel dogged not only rb but mark aswell. Now mark said he is leaving,Vettel has come out and said he holds high respect for mark as a racer. What a crock,he wants to be consolidated on who his new team mate is, why? Because he knows Raikkonen is a good possibility and he is terrified his little house is going to crumble, he knows he can beat mark, but doesn't know if he can beat his new team mate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 Bah this all started back in 2010 when webber was in a more mathematical chance to win the tiltle than Vettel. Vettel was consistantly asked if he would help mark as was Redbull. The both basically said no, when this question was asked to Mclaren years ago, the answer was we will back whoever is mathematically in a better position. Because of this Redbull IMO will never become a prestigious team like Ferrari or Mclaren or lotus and that is why rb bosses are split over who will replace webber. Horner wants Raikkonen and marko wants ricciardo or vergne. Marko just like always doesn't want his love child Vettel to be at an inconvenience. Iam an Aussie id love for ricciardo to step in, but Raikkonen needs to come and slap this kid down a couple of notches. His head is so Fnnn big I don't know how Vettel gets his helmet on. If Vettel cared about what his team wants and needs he would have listened in Malaysia simple as that. As for pushing Vettel towards the wall, bloody oath I would do the bloody same as webber asked 3-4 times, is Vettel going to pass me, the team said no so he did what the team ASKED and that was turn down your revs to save the engine and fuel. Vettel dogged not only rb but mark aswell. Now mark said he is leaving,Vettel has come out and said he holds high respect for mark as a racer. What a crock,he wants to be consolidated on who his new team mate is, why? Because he knows Raikkonen is a good possibility and he is terrified his little house is going to crumble, he knows he can beat mark, but doesn't know if he can beat his new team mate. Eish, I feel for MW fans... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 Yeah iam gutted and simply because he beat chance was 2010 and he was robbed, by seb and by rb. It's been 32 years since Australia last has a world champion so webber fans are still in disgust. I agree he made a rookie error in Korea that year, but if he had the teams full backing for season that retirement wounldnt have ended his title hopes. Got to feel our pain mate, webber has had the rough end of the stick his entire career, finally gets a winning car and its used against him,he should have left for Ferrari in 2011. Just my opinion. Don't get me wrong Vettel is an extraordinary talent, but he throws tantrums like a little kid. Malaysia this year he comes in the radio to say mark is to slow, what, the gap was steadily increasing between him and mark and mark is going to slow, thow another toy out the pram. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Angellica 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 Ohh yeah, loves how webber just came out and bluntly said seb would have protection, glad webber is leaving, if I were him I wouldn't have put up with this as long as he did especially after Malaysia, I would have smacked him in the mouth. Just my opinion. Apparently Webber made his decision to leave back in 2012, so Malaysia had nothing to do with it. I am sorry WebRic, but I am with Brad on this one, Webber hasn't exactly done as he was asked either when it comes to team orders, they're both as bad as one another in that regard I'd say. Maybe Seb's was more blatant I'll grant you, but Webber isn't as innocent in all this as he'd like people to believe. I know you're going to disagree with that though and I understand why you will. Again, it's all about prespective isn't it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 Yea that's right, like I've said before I respect everyone's opinion as long as they respect mine Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean-Pierre 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2013 The thing is vettel has a big ego and probably thinks he is very good, but he really is not that good. He has had the best car for a while and 3 or 4 drivers would do as well as him in the same car. He should keep this in mind and be a little humbler, cauz he is acting like an idiot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Angellica 0 Report post Posted July 1, 2013 The thing is vettel has a big ego and probably thinks he is very good, but he really is not that good. He has had the best car for a while and 3 or 4 drivers would do as well as him in the same car. He should keep this in mind and be a little humbler, cauz he is acting like an idiot. Jean Pierre you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Vettel is a good driver and like I said before, if you think he's not then you've clearly been watching a whole other series of races to what I've been watching!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean-Pierre 0 Report post Posted July 2, 2013 Oh i agree with you dear: he is good. Just like several others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean-Pierre 0 Report post Posted July 2, 2013 Oh i agree with you dear: he is good. Just like several others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean-Pierre 0 Report post Posted July 2, 2013 Oh i agree with you dear: he is good. Just like several others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean-Pierre 0 Report post Posted July 2, 2013 Oh i agree with you dear: he is good. Just like several others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
