Vettel Passing Str Under Yellow Flags

[AleHop 0]

Because it supports your view, who is Paul anyway, bloody armchair expert.

Please read this, especially the last paragraph, and let's move on from this, as the guy stipulates in the last sentence...No more use for this thread

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/437592/The_Sebastian_Vettel__Yellow_light_overtake_explained/

Sad affair that your don't want to paste those quotes in here....

Can you read the headline of that article for me?

HRT pass: legal, Sauber pass: legal, Toro Rosso pass: debatable!

James brought some pictures that might explain why Vettel was in the clear. SennaNZL brought some nonsense from other series that don't apply to F1. Pabloh was spot on about how Grern and Yellow flags work in F1.

I would paste those comments if you posted those others from disgruntled Alonso fans... Problem is that they come from TV, radio... No links available AFAIK.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

I don't know about you but with all of the above, I'm flagging somewhat

[pabloh20 1]

The only two posts you need in this thread to disprove this particular theory is Alehop's first post and James'. I believe the posted video correctly interprets the flag procedure. The video clearly shows that 1) the pass on the HRT was legal, 2) the pass on the Sauber of Kobayashi was legal. No question about either of those, and Ferrari even confirmed as much for the Sauber pass.

As for the Vergne pass, the one which people weren't aware of, obviously it would be illegal if it happened before a green flag zone (according to the video's interpretation of the flags, which is different to Handy's). I think here we can look at the evidence that James helpfully posted and seems to suggest that a green flag zone starts out of turn 3. You can't see it on the video so I don't blame the guy for missing it.

What do James' links say? Sorry, I am not being funny, they are blocked on the network I am on

Edit: Seeing as Grabbie is on I will add that I am not on a jail network, before he even thinks about saying anything remotely reptitive

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Edit: Seeing as Grabbie is on I will add that it inot a jail network I am on, before he even thinks about saying anything remotely reptitive

Ah crap you got there before I could

Obviously you are out on day release for good behaviour - how is the tag? :P

[pabloh20 1]

Ah crap you got there before I could

Obviously you are out on day release for good behaviour - how is the tag?

The same as yours, I would presume?? Or do sex offenders get different tags to us lowly thieves?

[AleHop 0]

I don't know about you but with all of the above, I'm flagging somewhat

I'm red flagged.

[Rainmaster 7]

What do James' links say? Sorry, I am not being funny, they are blocked on the network I am on

Edit: Seeing as Grabbie is on I will add that I am not on a jail network, before he even thinks about saying anything remotely reptitive

James' post shows that on lap 3 there is a green flag being waved at the exit of turn 3, on the left. In the Youtube video description it is correctly stated that this is for the previous lap (lap 3) and the Vergne pass happened the following lap. However, it is pointed out in the top comment that "yes it's from the previous lap, but the motivation for the yellow flag sector remains the same (Maldonado at T3)" - therefore implying that on the following lap there would also be the same sequence of lights and flags. Indeed, if you look on the Youtube video again at 11:50 you can just make out the waving of what appears to be...a green flag on the left (it's incredibly hard to see even with the time stamp).

[AleHop 0]

James' post shows that on lap 3 there is a green flag being waved at the exit of turn 3, on the left. In the Youtube video description it is correctly stated that this is for the previous lap (lap 3) and the Vergne pass happened the following lap. However, it is pointed out in the top comment that "yes it's from the previous lap, but the motivation for the yellow flag sector remains the same (Maldonado at T3)" - therefore implying that on the following lap there would also be the same sequence of lights and flags. Indeed, if you look on the Youtube video again at 11:50 you can just make out the waving of what appears to be...a green flag on the left (it's incredibly hard to see even with the time stamp).

You have Sky F1 at home? Could you get that part on 1080p? The footage when Vettel overtakes Vergne only. Is that posible?

P.S.- Maybe a snapshot would be just fine.

[pabloh20 1]

James' post shows that on lap 3 there is a green flag being waved at the exit of turn 3, on the left. In the Youtube video description it is correctly stated that this is for the previous lap (lap 3) and the Vergne pass happened the following lap. However, it is pointed out in the top comment that "yes it's from the previous lap, but the motivation for the yellow flag sector remains the same (Maldonado at T3)" - therefore implying that on the following lap there would also be the same sequence of lights and flags. Indeed, if you look on the Youtube video again at 11:50 you can just make out the waving of what appears to be...a green flag on the left (it's incredibly hard to see even with the time stamp).

Ah right ok. Will have to remember to have a look when I get home.

Did I see somebody state that on the overtake on Kamui, the yellow flag (after the green flag on turn 14) when Vettel actually gets past him was actually a red/yellow flag again, but it wasn't showing on TV properly?

And bollocking hell, there are too many flags in this discussion

[pabloh20 1]

You have Sky F1 at home? Could you get that part on 1080p? The footage when Vettel overtakes Vergne only. Is that posible?

P.S.- Maybe a snapshot would be just fine.

No, absolutely not!!! The highest resolution you can get is 1080i

It would be interesting to see if they do show this on any of the repeats. I never watch the repeats, but presumably they are just a an exact copy of the original broadcast, in which case the answer would be no as they didn't show it the first time.

[AleHop 0]

No, absolutely not!!! The highest resolution you can get is 1080i

Is that all you get in jail?

Sorry, not as funny as Grabthar's.

[pabloh20 1]

Is that all you get in jail?

Sorry, not as funny as Grabthar's.

It was quite funny

[Rainmaster 7]

I'm too lazy to get a snapshot or find the footage, to be honest. If it's possible to do it, I'm sure somebody who cares about this more than I do will do that. Or hopefully some professional publication will put all of the information together to put it to bed, which hasn't really happened yet except for on the Sauber and HRT incidents.

For me, it's enough to know that on the previous lap there was a green flag in that area for the same incident, and that I am 90% sure I see a green flag on that video in the same place on the lap in question. Also, that Ferrari would not allow such an obvious mistake to go unpunished. All that is pretty much conclusive to me to be able to say that in the case of Red Bull v Internet conspiracy theorists, I find in favour of Red Bull

Oh, by the way, going back to the video, if you change it to 720p it helps to see some green thing being waved out of turn 3 (just before the Johnnie Walker sign). Could be a flag

[AleHop 0]

Oh, by the way, going back to the video, if you change it to 720p it helps to see some green thing being waved out of turn 3 (just before the Johnnie Walker sign). Could be a flag

I think I tried that and I only saw 360p and 465p? No 720p. If there's 720p I think that's nearly the best you can get (Pabloh reminded me there's only 1080i on TV which I think is really 720p.

Problem is YouTube video compression is just Sh#t for colors and it compressed the vid after the actual compression during broadcasting and as the Marshall's post is kind of green and the trees in the background are green too the flag might be yellow and look like green with the cam moving. Just in case...

I agree, if Ferrari stay quiet it would be a reason to think it's actually green. Well, I'll check that 720p on YouTube later at the computer.

[JHS18 0]

An open question to anyone.

If Ferrari did appeal (even though they won't) - don't you think it'd be a tragic way for this amazing year to end? The championship deserves to be settled on the race track, and not the court room. It isn't hard to imagine what could happen - Ferrari could appeal the result, the FIA may take some action, then Red Bull would appeal that decision and then Ferrari would appeal that appeal and before you know it we're in 2013 with no idea of who is definitely the 2012 champion. It would do the sport no good to see it ended like that.

And dare I be so brave to suggest that I doubt Fernando would want to win it that way anyway?

I'd say the exact same thing if it was the other way round.

I think there's a reason why the FIA didn't take action in the race, and why Ferrari haven't said anything. There's nothing to it other than bitter fans trying to play as race stewards.

Whilst we're at it, why don't we re-award the 1990 championship to Prost seeing as Senna deliberately drove into him?

I swear, if I hear the words "Vettel", "illegal overtake" and "yellow flag" in the same sentence again I may just be driven to punch something very hard...

[AleHop 0]

I swear, if I hear the words "Vettel", "illegal overtake" and "yellow flag" in the same sentence again I may just be driven to punch something very hard...

I can't write freely if you threat me. Ok, I'll say what I think. The title's Vettel's and it won't change, it should not change but... IF the pass was illegal it would be a big mistake and Ferrari should proceed as if it had happened in Australia, Malaysia or Bahrain. There are 20 races in the championship and Brazil is just one more. FIA should keep the outcome but if there had been a mistake they should investigate, tell what happened and apologize for it.

[Rainmaster 7]

Well, at this point this is nothing more than a thought experiment but... imagining that Red Bull did have a case to answer. As far as I know, the FIA would have discretion about which penalty to apply.

If they applied a drive through, or a stop and go penalty, that would translate to a time penalty of 20 seconds or 30 seconds respectively (since it's applied after the race), and could not be appealed.

But the FIA could also choose a time penalty of their choice, or just a reprimand (and again, neither would be open to appeal). You could imagine in such a situation the FIA would choose one of these options, so as to avoid controversy and the title would not change hands. It would not even be too unreasonable to give a 10 second penalty, considering the crime alleged here is overtaking (albeit safely) 40 metres before it was legal to do so.

FIA could also exclude the driver from the result, suspend them from the next event or drop them a number of positions on the grid at the next event (and these would be open to appeal).

[AleHop 0]

But the FIA could also choose a time penalty of their choice, or just a reprimand...

No, not a reprimand please. I hate reprimands. Anyway, I think it would be his third reprimand of the season, would mean a drive through so no escape there. I read that yesterday.

I think I found what I was looking for and the flag doesn't look yellow. Most probably is green. Definitely they have to wash the flags every now and then.

[pabloh20 1]

An open question to anyone.

If Ferrari did appeal (even though they won't) - don't you think it'd be a tragic way for this amazing year to end? The championship deserves to be settled on the race track, and not the court room. It isn't hard to imagine what could happen - Ferrari could appeal the result, the FIA may take some action, then Red Bull would appeal that decision and then Ferrari would appeal that appeal and before you know it we're in 2013 with no idea of who is definitely the 2012 champion. It would do the sport no good to see it ended like that.

And dare I be so brave to suggest that I doubt Fernando would want to win it that way anyway?

I'd say the exact same thing if it was the other way round.

I think there's a reason why the FIA didn't take action in the race, and why Ferrari haven't said anything. There's nothing to it other than bitter fans trying to play as race stewards.

Whilst we're at it, why don't we re-award the 1990 championship to Prost seeing as Senna deliberately drove into him?

I swear, if I hear the words "Vettel", "illegal overtake" and "yellow flag" in the same sentence again I may just be driven to punch something very hard...

Well, it looks like Ferrari are considering an appeal.

[Rainmaster 7]

Yep, that's a helpful slow-mo. Axis of Oversteer, right? http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/

Now, the BBC Sport website has this story "Ferrari consider Sebastian Vettel protest" (http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20531638), but without any comments from the FIA, Ferrari or Red Bull. Journalism at its finest

Looks like a classic example of "old media" trying to keep up with "new media", and the result is somewhat embarassing given plenty of people on the interwebs have already pointed out the green flag on lap 4. Oh Beeb, you have disappointed me..

[pabloh20 1]

Yep, that's a helpful slow-mo. Axis of Oversteer, right? http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/

Now, the BBC Sport website has this story "Ferrari consider Sebastian Vettel protest" (http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20531638), but without any comments from the FIA, Ferrari or Red Bull. Journalism at its finest

Looks like a classic example of "old media" trying to keep up with "new media", and the result is somewhat embarassing given plenty of people on the interwebs have already pointed out the green flag on lap 4. Oh Beeb, you have disappointed me..

Have you looked at the onboard footage they have linked on the story?

[Rainmaster 7]

Have you looked at the onboard footage they have linked on the story?

Yep, same footage as the Youtube clip but with gear info, etc, in the way.

Edit: And like the Youtube clip, shows a flag being waved out of turn 3. Although in the BBC footage the colours are better than Youtube.

[AleHop 0]

I'm a bit lost after reading the BBC report. They say they can see a green flag waving on lap 3 but it isn't clear on the footage if it's still waving on lap 4. So, what lap is showing that gif I just posted before this post? Lap 3 or 4?

[pabloh20 1]

Yep, same footage as the Youtube clip but with gear info, etc, in the way.

Yep exactly

[Rainmaster 7]

The .gif you posted is from lap 4. You can see the whole clip here (slow mo included) with Vettel passing the green flag, then passing the STR http://www.youtube.c...&v=Ku979qCzAWA#!

The BBC footage in their report also appears to be from lap 4 but apparently they haven't watched it particularly closely as you can also make out the colour of the flag.