Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted November 28, 2012 Yep exactly Now I see what you mean. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted November 28, 2012 Ok, so the green flag is waving on lap 4. Oh, that's why you were disappointed with them, right? We're ahead the BBC. OMG! I guess they'll find out eventually. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted November 28, 2012 Yep, they'll catch up eventually. Maybe Red Bull will post some super high definition footage and pictures for us, now that there's serious media attention! To be honest, though, I think Benson is just trying to create a story here. I mean, the article even points out that the whole case rests on whether there is a green flag being waved at the marshal's post (the existence of which the original Youtube video didn't even know of, which is why there's been a story in the first place). With the importance of the flag being known this time, you would have thought Benson/BBC Sport would have slowed down that part of the footage, not the part where the overtake is made... Just shows that us internet experts are much better than traditional media at solving these conspiracy theories, which is just as well since most of them originate here too. Anyway, hopefully soon one of the three main players (Red Bull, Ferrari, the FIA) deals properly with this story, as it's quite damaging for the sport if god knows how many people believe that pass was illegal and the championship invalid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted November 28, 2012 Anyway, hopefully soon one of the three main players (Red Bull, Ferrari, the FIA) deals properly with this story, as it's quite damaging for the sport if god knows how many people believe that pass was illegal and the championship invalid. Yep. I've just read a few guys claiming the flag is blue. Then they'll say they've photoshoped it so it looks green. Whatever... It seems Ferrari is looking into it but the FIA stay quiet and of course Red Bull won't do/say anything if there's nothing to say after all. I think it depends on Ferrari having something to support an appeal or it will simply die off in a matter of days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pabloh20 1 Report post Posted November 28, 2012 Yep, they'll catch up eventually. Maybe Red Bull will post some super high definition footage and pictures for us, now that there's serious media attention! To be honest, though, I think Benson is just trying to create a story here. I mean, the article even points out that the whole case rests on whether there is a green flag being waved at the marshal's post (the existence of which the original Youtube video didn't even know of, which is why there's been a story in the first place). With the importance of the flag being known this time, you would have thought Benson/BBC Sport would have slowed down that part of the footage, not the part where the overtake is made... Just shows that us internet experts are much better than traditional media at solving these conspiracy theories, which is just as well since most of them originate here too. Anyway, hopefully soon one of the three main players (Red Bull, Ferrari, the FIA) deals properly with this story, as it's quite damaging for the sport if god knows how many people believe that pass was illegal and the championship invalid. You have to wonder if that last sentence is also one of the purposes of this exercise from ferrari. Throw enough mud and all that............ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Massa 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 You seem to have forgotten something: Schumacher was in between Vettel and Vergne, so a penalty of 20s results in P8 for Vettel, and the tittle would go to Alonso by one point. I was assuming that a drive through would have a delta of less than 20 seconds. The total time spent on pit lane was, what, 23 seconds? That's with a stop. A drive-through would take out the 3 second stop, so you have 20 seconds spent on pit road. But Vergne would be spending some number of seconds on the track driving past pit road, so the penalty would be more like 15 seconds delta or something like that. So, ahead of Vergne... ...but there was no penalty, and Vettel is a great champion. I'm not sure what F1's flagging rules are. I was just stupidly trusting that this guy knew what he was talking about. Craig's the Kiwi, but I'm the sheep... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 I'm not sure what F1's flagging rules are. I was just stupidly trusting that this guy knew what he was talking about. Craig's the Kiwi, but I'm the sheep... Eric, this guy knows what he's talking about. The BBC have the story about the yellow flags with pretty much the same video on it. I could not see it from Spain but Pabloh and George said it. As I said F1 experts agree with that guy about green/yellow flags and no better prove than that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 You have to wonder if that last sentence is also one of the purposes of this exercise from ferrari. Throw enough mud and all that............ Indeed. I was assuming that a drive through would have a delta of less than 20 seconds. The total time spent on pit lane was, what, 23 seconds? That's with a stop. A drive-through would take out the 3 second stop, so you have 20 seconds spent on pit road. But Vergne would be spending some number of seconds on the track driving past pit road, so the penalty would be more like 15 seconds delta or something like that. So, ahead of Vergne... ...but there was no penalty, and Vettel is a great champion. I'm not sure what F1's flagging rules are. I was just stupidly trusting that this guy knew what he was talking about. Craig's the Kiwi, but I'm the sheep... True, the cost of a drive through had it been applied in the race would be less than 20 seconds, and anyway Vergne would have let Vettel through anyway. Obviously, that's all academic now as no penalty was given. If a drive through is given after the race it becomes a 20 second time penalty. Sky now has the story and so does James Allen: http://www.jamesalle...video-evidence/ I'd still be surprised if this story has any real traction to it. It seems now that everybody accepts there's a green flag being waved on lap 4, out of turn 3, but now it is questioned why the (yellow) dashboard lights and the (yellow) light on the right of straight do not match the green flag on the left (at least this is the question James Allen raises in his article, he says "So there appears to be some confusion over signalling; the lights and flag do not synchronise"). First of all, the dashboard lights we can quickly dismiss I think, as they are just a guide to the drivers and obviously any flag being waved will supersede the dashboard lights which may fail/take time to change/not correspond to flags being waved in real time. As for the yellow light on the right of the straight on lap 4, this is essentially trying to make it a question of authority: which has authority, lights or flags? But I think this question is irrelevant as you can see from the circuit map that the yellow light on the right is in a different position on the straight to the (green) marshal post on the left. The yellow light on the right of the track has its own corresponding marshal point just in front of it. The marshal post on the left (where we see the green flag) is independent of this earlier light/marshal post combo. You can see this very clearly in the circuit map: http://1.bp.blogspot...lo-brazil-1.png Then the following, as James posted, shows the relevance to Vettel: http://i49.tinypic.com/9rkupl.jpg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Yeah, the YouTube guy knew what he was talking about. He just missed the fact there was a green flag being waved, which was quite easy to miss, and that dashboard lights don't have any supremacy, and that the yellow light on the right of the track has its own corresponding marshal post. Unfortunately, the YouTube guy also seems like an idiot, as I've checked back on that video a few times and it seems he's deleting the top comments which all highlight relevant facts (such as the green flag) and other useful information. He also edited the video description because he was proved wrong on a couple of points. Shame. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Yeah, the YouTube guy knew what he was talking about. He just missed the fact there was a green flag being waved, which was quite easy to miss, and that dashboard lights don't have any supremacy, and that the yellow light on the right of the track has its own corresponding marshal post. Unfortunately, the YouTube guy also seems like an idiot, as I've checked back on that video a few times and it seems he's deleting the top comments which all highlight relevant facts (such as the green flag) and other useful information. He also edited the video description because he was proved wrong on a couple of points. Shame. Yep, he cooked it a bit so you get the impression it's a blatant overtake under yellow flags and a blatant FIA incompetence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Apparently Ferrari can't appeal and the FIA have only until the end of this month to review the race result: http://www.f1fanatic...m=15#post-81156 - Obviously, I don't think it'll come to an appeal because the facts are all there in Red Bull's favour for anybody who looks. The more I read into this story (and all I am doing is looking on my Twitter feed), the more I question why the major news outlets haven't done any of this research... Edit: the F1Fanatic site has this covered really well, more from our Keith: http://www.f1fanatic...m=15#post-80878 (also includes an FOM track map which indicates different marshalling sectors). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 I knew that there's a deadline for appeal on 30th October but a Spanish FIA member (Verdegay) said Ferrari could appeal themselves as that footage would be considered as "new evidence" if it proved something the stewards hadn't look into. But the green flag disproves an overtake under yellow flags so if they don't have something new we don't know about yet it looks over. That green flag was the only important thing about all this and there should be everywhere on the media tomorrow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Massa 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 I don't mean to say the guy in the video is wrong, just that I never bothered to check and see if he was... ...so I did. And I couldn't find it in the Code or in the Formula One Sporting Regulations. Uhh... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Massa 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Wasn't looking in the right place. Appendix H 2.4.5.1( b ) Overtaking is not permitted between the first yellow flag and the green flag displayed after the incident. http://argent.fia.co...23_ANNEXE H.pdf That is all that is said about this. I feel as though you would have to hit the point the green flag is being displayed based on that wording. Is this still relevant? A lot of posts happened between then and now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Massa 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Had I read while I researched, I wouldn't have made either of those two posts I just made. I'm so dumb. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Had I read while I researched, I wouldn't have made either of those two posts I just made. I'm so dumb. As George said the only relevant posts are the video and the first one of James with a gif. I posted a better quality gif a few posts back where you can see a most probably green flag waving on the left. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Massa 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Right. We're on the same page now. It looks to me like the pass was good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 It looks to me like the pass was good. Yep. It took you a bit longer but we're all there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Massa 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Nothing new there. I ran the 110m when I raced. All seven of us in the heat would get across the finish line, but it'd take me a bit longer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Ok, I could'nt log on to TF1 today because of some server issue??? In any case, hope this has'nt been said in this thread, I just don't have to time to follow properly.... some links I want to pst... "The 31-year-old Alonso, who was world champion in 2005 and 2006, is believed to be pushing Ferrari to make an official protest to the FIA." This guy is such a sour loser... Not only is he influencing his fans with his tantrums and bitterness, but he's also willing to put his team at risk! It seems he forgot about this... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63581?source=mostpopular http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63956 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Shadow 0 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Let's just Red flag this discussion. Matter at hand appears settled.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Let's just Red flag this discussion. Matter at hand appears settled.. oh really, its that easy??? ..... I feel the need to expose your favourite driver as the power-hungry greedy mongrel that he is, it is not over for me! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 I don't know whether I believe Alonso is actually doing that, Bradman. To be honest, I find it hard to believe that from my position of having an internet connection, I would be able to find out more about this than Ferrari would. I know Ferrari sent a letter to the FIA last night asking for 'clarification', but I can only imagine the most likely scenario is that they already had all the relevant information available to them (because I did), and it was simply a political, mud slinging sort of move (as Paul suggested). I don't think that's the kind of thing Alonso is in a position to push through. I could be wrong, though. Of course, it's also possible Ferrari did want clarification and simply didn't have all the facts, which is a little worrying from a competence POV but would at least make their position less political/unsporting on this one, and would make Alonso's involvement much more likely and reasonable. Happily, the FIA have clarified this today saying there's no case to answer. The FIA said http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104644 Autosport explains the pass and the flag/lights rules: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104645 Ecclestone said: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104650 Best of all goes to Sniff Petrol, though: http://sniffpetrol.c...enge-christmas/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Shadow 0 Report post Posted November 30, 2012 oh really, its that easy??? ..... I feel the need to expose your favourite driver as the power-hungry greedy mongrel that he is, it is not over for me! Err... Brad.... I am no fan of Alonso. It's certainly true I admire his ability, but I'm in the Hamilton camp.. And calling a driver a "greedy mongrel" over just one issue, does not show any degree of objectivity. "Power-hungry" .... I'd challenge you to find any racing driver with some modicum of success without that affinity. If given the avenue, most people would be power hungry, would they not? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted November 30, 2012 Err... Brad.... I am no fan of Alonso. It's certainly true I admire his ability, but I'm in the Hamilton camp.. And calling a driver a "greedy mongrel" over just one issue, does not show any degree of objectivity. "Power-hungry" .... I'd challenge you to find any racing driver with some modicum of success without that affinity. If given the avenue, most people would be power hungry, would they not? One issue? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
