Did Vettel Pull Off A Masterstroke????

[Emmcee 0]

Yep, still based a stone-throw away from Suzuka.

Chatter through the grapevine is that the engine is good. However, most of the talk is that there are a lot of ugly politics at play. This does not mean that the engine might not be good. But it tells me that the chatter is not reliable, that there is hype and delusion in there too.

You have to remember how Honda left F1, how they were forced to spend far more than 100 million dollars through 2009 while Brawn cheated them out of the championship and then sold the team as if his own. That's Mercedes today, btw. A lot of errors were made by Honda executives then. Brawn and pals are ghouls but Honda screwed the pooch.

Remember too that while Honda does not consider itself Ferrari, they do like to see themselves as more than a car manufacturer. These guys think that "racing" is in their DNA (which is fine). This matters a great deal because while HRC (essentially their motorcycle racing division) has lost some important championships the last few years, it is nonetheless considered the best outfit in MotoGP. This places additional internal institutional stress on the "F1 division".

There is also unhappiness about the choice of return to F1. The talk is that trying to "revive old glories" and particularly with RD is a mistake. The counter-argument is that RD has shown maturity by backing down and letting Honda bring Alonso. It's nonsense, of course. RD is as useless as he was 10 years ago and more cornered than ever.

And, btw, the F1 guys in Honda got Alonso on board partly as an one-upmanship on the MotoGP guys. It cannot be lost on you that Marquez is also considered the best and is also a Spaniard. Alonso is an additional feather on their cap for not all the good reasons.

In short, I fear that Honda management might get in its own way even if the engineers deliver. Plus, McLaren had the Merc engine last year and still made fools of themselves. This is a clusterfvck situation, as I see it.

I hope I'm wrong, of course. Ideally, RBR, Mercedes, McLaren, and Ferrari will all have similar packages and then we'll have perhaps 5 drivers slugging it out. Dreaming is free.

EDIT: gremlins

Mate you make a very good point. I've always wondered if Honda left on there own accord on 2008 or were they pushed? To have developed that title winning 2009 for what 3 years and being probably the second biggest manufacter in cars on planet behind Toyota, to say the can't afford it and blame it on the global financial crisis boggles my mind when manufacturers like Ferrari and Mclaren and even Mercedes can keep going and I know for a fact they would and haven't sold more ferraris or Mclaren's than Honda sold honda's. only exception there is Mercedes would be the closet in terms of sales to Honda. I've questioned politics over this issue for a long time. The whole sport is rigged. If you go back in time and read some old articles on Bernie. He always says something and it eventually comes true and he gets what he wants. The whole sport is a democracy.

My younger brother lives in Japan, lives in Okayama.

[AleHop 0]

Yep, still based a stone-throw away from Suzuka.

...

I hope I'm wrong, of course. Ideally, RBR, Mercedes, McLaren, and Ferrari will all have similar packages and then we'll have perhaps 5 drivers slugging it out. Dreaming is free.

Thank you Maure. It's interesting what you say, I tend to believe the Japanese people are not so hype prone as we're in latin countries. As you say dreaming is free and I love the idea of Honda having a monster PU for obvious reasons.

In a more thorough reflection I see your point and understand you may be right. Then we have RD again, 7 years later with Alonso, and I too remember that Honda did quite poorly when they were an F1 team on their own.

I love this part of the season. I make my predictions during preseason testing about teams and drivers. Then, when the season starts I have to do a reality check. I can quit after a few races if I don't like how the season is going but preseason testing is always interesting for me. Because dreaming is free.

[Emmcee 0]

Well it throws the cat amongst the pigeons so to speak doesnt it? You don't know whats going to happen.

[maure 1]

One inside story about 2008 is that Honda did not like the double diffuser. First, it was supposed to have been developed by SuperAguri engineers so it felt like an admission that their underlings had done better than they themselves could. Loss of face and all that. Second, they felt FIA would cut them down. Brawn is British but Honda is not. In the end, they were right about this last bit. The DD was allowed to Brawn and Brawn alone. Renault and RBR were blocked from implementing their solutions while Brawn was waved through amid claps. Even then all teams had to wait until mid-season to get on with the job and, as everyone knew, the DD was dangerous and eventually banned but only ONCE Brawn had consummated his scam and cashed in for gazillions.

That said, I think the Honda pull-out was ultimately brought about by a public relations snafu. The local economy was sufficiently bad that people were losing their jobs. This is a no-no in Japan. You guys probably know that Toyota city is nearby Suzuka so when engineers were let go, all around here felt the confusion and pain first hand.

Anyway, I think manufacturers over-reacted, particularly Honda. But that's politics.

You might also want to know that the last very few years, folks have become openly plush. The amount of large luxury cars around often astounds me. My place is in a relatively residential/rural area and, in addition to the "usual" large Merc, BMW, Lexus, and Infinity fleets, it is now possible to spot Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Maserati recent models on the road. The point is, there is cash on the streets again and not just on a few pockets. Public works that had been stopped for almost a decade are now being resumed. Some are already finally finished. I reckon this also goes to explain why Honda feels they can go play F1 without the "public" having a fit.

WebRic, have you visited the country?

EDIT: ouch

[BradSpeedMan 6]

hey guys. Just read the real story how Alonso and Briatore actually lost out and where the former actualy ended up where he is... with Alonso actually claiming that he controls the driver market ...hehehehehe. funny chap that guy.....hehehehehehehehe

www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ferrari-in-2014/

[Emmcee 0]

hey guys. Just read the real story how Alonso and Briatore actually lost out and where the former actualy ended up where he is... with Alonso actually claiming that he controls the driver market ...hehehehehe. funny chap that guy.....hehehehehehehehe

www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ferrari-in-2014/

that news from like 6 months ago.

[Emmcee 0]

One inside story about 2008 is that Honda did not like the double diffuser. First, it was supposed to have been developed by SuperAguri engineers so it felt like an admission that their underlings had done better than they themselves could. Loss of face and all that. Second, they felt FIA would cut them down. Brawn is British but Honda is not. In the end, they were right about this last bit. The DD was allowed to Brawn and Brawn alone. Renault and RBR were blocked from implementing their solutions while Brawn was waved through amid claps. Even then all teams had to wait until mid-season to get on with the job and, as everyone knew, the DD was dangerous and eventually banned but only ONCE Brawn had consummated his scam and cashed in for gazillions.

That said, I think the Honda pull-out was ultimately brought about by a public relations snafu. The local economy was sufficiently bad that people were losing their jobs. This is a no-no in Japan. You guys probably know that Toyota city is nearby Suzuka so when engineers were let go, all around here felt the confusion and pain first hand.

Anyway, I think manufacturers over-reacted, particularly Honda. But that's politics.

You might also want to know that the last very few years, folks have become openly plush. The amount of large luxury cars around often astounds me. My place is in a relatively residential/rural area and, in addition to the "usual" large Merc, BMW, Lexus, and Infinity fleets, it is now possible to spot Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Maserati recent models on the road. The point is, there is cash on the streets again and not just on a few pockets. Public works that had been stopped for almost a decade are now being resumed. Some are already finally finished. I reckon this also goes to explain why Honda feels they can go play F1 without the "public" having a fit.

WebRic, have you visited the country?

EDIT: ouch

No I haven't but plan to very shortly, least ill save on accommodation.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

that news from like 6 months ago.

No Webric. From 2 months ago and features the REAL story. 6 Months ago ppl would have been guessing what really happened still. This writer acquired enough evidence to post this article at the start of Dec

[Emmcee 0]

Who knows what to Beleive mate.

[maure 1]

And, in his case, he only believes it because he thinks it makes Alonso look bad. His obsession with the guy is almost pathological.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

It does'nt make Alonso look bad. It IS bad

[AleHop 0]

And, in his case, he only believes it because he thinks it makes Alonso look bad. His obsession with the guy is almost pathological.

Almost?

Now you made me remember what I think about that season and the DD farce and Honda leaving. It was a classical F1 episode where some are allowed to do things that are forbidden for others under very unclear reasons for the fans. The reason they, the teams, accept things like that is because they're waiting for their own loophole to exploit or some kind of helping hand. Some teams already got plenty, others could keep waiting for ages with no luck. Brawn was the right man, he knows F1 inside out. Then Honda left, Brawn won with Mercedes, the Germans bought the team, hybrids came in, won 2014... Now Honda is back, maybe F1 owe them something.

[Emmcee 0]

I always felt Honda were forced to leave f1, I mean think about it. Bernie is always on about how he wants a manufacturers championship with the likes of Ferrari Mercedes and such and eliminate the small teams. It wouldn't look good in his eyes if Honda beat teams like Ferrari or Mercedes when he is trying to establish the sport the way he wants.

[AleHop 0]

I always felt Honda were forced to leave f1, I mean think about it. Bernie is always on about how he wants a manufacturers championship with the likes of Ferrari Mercedes and such and eliminate the small teams. It wouldn't look good in his eyes if Honda beat teams like Ferrari or Mercedes when he is trying to establish the sport the way he wants.

I mostly agree. But now it isn't what pleases Bernie waht will make Mercedes champions again. Mercedes entered F1 and they would have left if FIA/FOM/Bernie/Todt... had not brought hybrids. Mercedes are very strong on hybrids and will be hard to beat them for another season or two. Honda are back because they (think) they have something to say on hybrids. Let's see.

[maure 1]

It is not about Honda specifically, but about Japanese teams in general. F1 as an institution is more political than racist but, still, it is some of both when it comes to Japanese teams. And, btw, I don't mean "racist" in the sense of racial superiority/inferiority but in the sense of "us versus them" (which, btw, is a concept that Japanese share).

Consider what has happened in the motorbike competition world. The options are Japanese or... Japanese. Aprilia and Ducati don't manage to really compete. In MX, Supercross, etc, KTM is doing a bit nowadays here and there but again not enough. Trials are the exception, where Spaniards run the show in manufacturers and riders but trials are a comparatively minor competition.

The point is that, in bikes, the promoters have to deal with Japanese. This is not necessarily bad. It is in fact better in some respects. But Japanese are outside of the "European money club" and F1 frowns on this.

In F1, the promoters deal with European teams, executives, money-shakers, iow, their peers. They vacation together, they own property in similar places, they dine in the same restaurants, they buy outfits from the same designers, they bed a shared harem of interloper/hanger-ons, they marry each others' children, etc.

Even American teams are viewed with suspicion. Imagine Ecclestone and FIA having to negociate with a grid dominated by American (or Japanese) teams. They prefer things as they are, that is European, and why lie to ourselves, British.

This is in fact one of the evolutions (or revolutions) that I'm looking forward to the most, namely, the true internationalization of F1. The Brits have to go (as did the French once).

EDIT: too clever an editor

[AleHop 0]

Yes, in some way F1 is a club based in Britain and it won't change but now F1 will need manufacturers more than ever from the rest of the world. That could help things get more balanced and internationalised.

When Honda announced they would come back to F1 they talked about Toyota on a Spanish TV and they agreed it was a mistake that the team were based in Germany. I don't know why they did that but a Japanese F1 team based in Germany doesn't make much sense. Honda were based in Britain and it didn't work out either but they got very close with Brawn.

[Emmcee 0]

It's down to all these rediculous bans on testing. How are teams, especially smaller ever going to

have a chance to catch up? That alone IMO is one major cause in these small teams always going belly up.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

It's down to all these rediculous bans on testing. How are teams, especially smaller ever going to

have a chance to catch up? That alone IMO is one major cause in these small teams always going belly up.

Ironically, the bans on testing were implemented so other teams, especially the smaller, could catch up. With Newey at the helm at RB and the emphasis on aero, the bigger teams still ran away at the front. Now with engines at the forefront, the circle is being repeated. Teams will always find some loophole to manipulate, and budget will always be the most defning factor, no matter how much they try to cost-cut. Just look at the lenghts Merc had to go to stay at the front with the simple changes with the noses, it cuts heavily into a teams resources

www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/514142/Riskaverse_Mercedes_faced_setback_with_2015_nose/

[AleHop 0]

I don't think Merecedes is as good on aerodynamics as others like RB, McL or SF but we'll see if that's enough to have a decent championship from race one to the end. At least 2-3 teams winning races and 3-4 drivers fighting for the title could happen if the Germans got the FW wrong.

[Emmcee 0]

I can't see they have it wrong. There not even trying to set fast laps yet there duking it out at the top of the time sheets.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Raikkonen still flying...

​Biggest surprise is that Mclaren Honda, putting in some decent laps and times... Filming days worked!!!

[Emmcee 0]

What are these filming days? Geez the rate they carry on about "filming days" we should have some awesome f1 DVDs or documentaries hey?

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Good point, what are they filming for if us F1-nerds aren't even able to see the output?

[Emmcee 0]

Well they say its sponsor related but Mclaren doesn't have one, so what exactly are they doing?

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Maybe filming a cheesy video which they can send out to a load of companies asking for sponsorship!