radical-one 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 In general, not just on points, who's ahead of who ? Nico vs Hamilton - Nico ahead Kimi vs Vettel - Kimi slightly ahead Dan vs Max - Even ? Bottas vs Massa - Massa slightly ahead Kvyat vs Sainz - Kvyat ahead Grosjean vs Steban - Grosjean ahead Alonso vs Button - Even The rest doesn't matter as of now... Who's gonna make a big difference soon ? Maybe : Nico will continue to dominate Lewis ? Kimi will be more steady than Vettel ? Dan will get his revenge ? Bottas will be overshadowed more ? Kvyat will screw up ? Alonso might make 6th place in Monaco ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spiral.out 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 I think both Vettel and Hamilton have had some hardware hardships havent they? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 So has Kimi but and is performing better than Seb ATM IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
radical-one 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 I think both Vettel and Hamilton have had some hardware hardships havent they? Fair to say yes. But it's still is part of racing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakae 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 Fair to say yes. But it's still is part of racing. It is true as far as score sheet is documenting, and if that holds true as personal performance goes, then we have to accept that Kvyat whipped Ricciardo last year, because you cannot ignore 2 DNF(s) for Vettel with another two races with questionable strategies, and by the same standard excuse DR.I've made a spreadsheet with results (I am not sure how to copy it here), and facts is, Vettel actually is ahead of Raikonnen, looking on results objectively. Race 1 - V p3, R dnf Race 2 - V dnf, R p2 Race 3 - V p2, R p5 Race 4 - V dnf, R p3 Race 5 - V p3, R p2 (Vettel was merely 0,8 sec behind, despite 3-stopper) I do not want to read tea-leafs, but I can't see Vettel as underperforming. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
radical-one 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 I don't think and said that Vettel is under performing, I just feel that Kimi is performing better than his last year's thus resulting in a little edge on Seb on my list - as pf the last race. Hardware or hard-lucks are all part of racing. Everyone has one on one day or the other. If we will put that in context all the time then there's no real champion like Nico had more unfortunate races last year than Lewis. in the end, result is result regardless of DNFs, etc.That's what recorded in history. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakae 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 I don't think and said that Vettel is under performing, I just feel that Kimi is performing better than his last year's thus resulting in a little edge on Seb on my list - as pf the last race. Hardware or hard-lucks are all part of racing. Everyone has one on one day or the other. If we will put that in context all the time then there's no real champion like Nico had more unfortunate races last year than Lewis. in the end, result is result regardless of DNFs, etc.That's what recorded in history. I do agree with you that equipment performance is part of racing, just as I do agree that Kimi is performing better than in 2015, but at the same time, I do not see his edge over Vettel. Out of 5 races, three contained DNF. Only China and Spain were races both drivers finished. Consider those then: China Vettel 18 Raikonnen 10 Spain Vettel 15 Raikonnen 18 Vettel 33 points, Rainkonnen 28 There is of course more to it than just rudimentary stats as shown, but I've always consider teammate comparison as an excercise in subjectivity. Equipment might be similar, however is never the same, conditions for each racer are unique, and one can continue listing pro and cons. In fact I think that teammate comparison as an indicator of racer's overall standing is poor, and misleading yardstick which is rather a solid reason for not to do it. To clarify, for me there is life-long accomplishment worthwhile to discuss, individual races as well - good fun, but to disect some individual, selective fraction of events in one's life is doing rather disservice to that person. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 I know one thing Vettel is doing better than anyone at the moment and that's having a sook whenever anyone even has a look at trying to pass him. Imagine Vettel on the regular road, the rage would be similar to this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Massa 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 Mercedes: Rosberg over Hamilton Ferrari: both are doing their jobs just fine Red Bull: only one race to judge by Williams: Massa over Bottas STR: only one race to judge by—but I think Kvyat should do better (not sure he will) Haas: no contest lol Force India: they're still on the grid? McLaren: Vandoorne over both Renault: Magnussen over Palmer, and how Sauber: Nasr over Ericsson Manor: Wehrlein over Haryanto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakae 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 I had this theory last year, that Sainz is just as good as Verstappen is, or better. He had truckload of bad luck, and at least in one case there were team orders issued against him, if my recollection is correct. Now he will have opportunity to prove me right. Kvyat is on fire at the moment, so, good luck to both of them. Sainz seems to be more cool headed, more calculating, no stupid diving in to force the move or crush, etc. Not bad driver either, just overlooked right now with those two other guys in spotlight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted May 26, 2016 Sainz is savegly underrated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Insider 0 Report post Posted May 27, 2016 It's worth noting that most of the issues with current and former WDCs are hardware-related whilst the wannabes are hindered mostly by their own psychi. The mentally strong will survive and the weak will fall away. There is much talk about Vandoorne replacing Button. He is certainly quick and most efficient with feedback but why change stuff for the sake of it? No one has a God-given right to climb straight into a hot car and as long as Button and Alonso are doing their jobs to the maximum, Stoffo will just have to wait or move. Despite being pranged by a flying drain cover in P1 and the fact that Nando has an upgraded drivetrain, JB still managed to pull 4/10ths on him in P2. Replace that, MF! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spiral.out 0 Report post Posted May 27, 2016 Practice shmactice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
radical-one 0 Report post Posted May 27, 2016 Mercedes: Rosberg over Hamilton Ferrari: both are doing their jobs just fine Red Bull: only one race to judge by Williams: Massa over Bottas STR: only one race to judge by—but I think Kvyat should do better (not sure he will) Haas: no contest lol Force India: they're still on the grid? McLaren: Vandoorne over both Renault: Magnussen over Palmer, and how Sauber: Nasr over Ericsson Manor: Wehrlein over Haryanto I agree with the McLaren Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakae 0 Report post Posted May 27, 2016 It's worth noting that most of the issues with current and former WDCs are hardware-related whilst the wannabes are hindered mostly by their own psychi. The mentally strong will survive and the weak will fall away. There is much talk about Vandoorne replacing Button. He is certainly quick and most efficient with feedback but why change stuff for the sake of it? No one has a God-given right to climb straight into a hot car and as long as Button and Alonso are doing their jobs to the maximum, Stoffo will just have to wait or move. Despite being pranged by a flying drain cover in P1 and the fact that Nando has an upgraded drivetrain, JB still managed to pull 4/10ths on him in P2. Replace that, MF! All true, but there is perhaps an additional angle how one can look at situation at McLaren. Setting aside Alonso's mood whether he will, or will not ride for them in 2017, Button seat is a different matter. JB may be there for another year or two, and leave. Who will replace him when time comes? Vandoorne will not wait forever, he could secure a seat elsewhere, whereas signing him in 2017, he could potentially turn into an asset for next six years. (Basically at least two contracts). Bottom line, take end of 2017 and 2018 when JB might be on his way out, and predict who will be available and worth signing a team which wants to win the championship. I think Renault was faced with similar decisions, and their approach is different. Why pay expensive (bored to death) drivers now, when realistically car will be ready to fight with best only after 2017? I would let JB go to Williams, and sign up Belgian for the next season. Even better solution was to take him now, so he gets use to the procedures and feels equipment when nothing much is in stake, but ready to go head to toe with MV next year. He could learn of Alonso, but later this will be an opportunity lost. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted May 27, 2016 Good post sakae. I agree 100% Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
radical-one 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2016 Max is way ahead of Dan - because RB is holding Dan's reins Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Publius Cornelius Scipio 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2016 IMHO Mercedes - Rosberg has proved so far to be far ahead of Hamilton but it won't last, Hamilton is their future and they will do whatever it takes to keep him happy. Who here thinks that Toto would have asked a struggling Hamilton to let Nico through last Sunday if the roles were reversed? I don't Ferrari - Vettel way ahead but down on points due to pit wall blunders McLaren - when it matters Nando delivers, Button seems to have the upper hand when they're not very competitive Red Bull - so far Ricciardo has been much better than Verstappen, pity the puit wall has its own agenda. I can't see Ricciardo at Red Bull for long Toro Rosso - quite even, the fact that they so obviously want to get rid of Kvyat (who I understand is talking with Williams for next year) will probably tip the balance in Sainz's favour Williams - an odd one, Massa is a significantly better driver than Bottas but the team having (I believe reluctantly) to keep Toto happy means that often Bottas' inferior performances turn into better results than Massa (and Massa is prone to silly mistakes and is also quite unlucky) Force India - Perez is significantly more talented than Hulkenberg, but Hulkenberg is a very good racer and so they are often even Haas - no contest there Manor - I was expecting a walk in the park for Werlhein but it's not happening Renault - I don't understand why people say that Magnussen is doing so much better than Palmer, to me it looks as if the difference between the two is marginal, ie. I don't think that this is the strongest pair of drivers out there Sauber - I forgot about them, and that gives away what I think of the team and their drivers, I'd say that Nasr is marginally better than Ericsson but both are basically irrelevant and look to me as being out of their depth in F1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakae 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2016 An interesting take. I am not totally in the clear about the alledged RBR agenda. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2016 An interesting take. I am not totally in the clear about the alledged RBR agenda. Of course, because then it will question how the team was run in the Vettel/webber days wouldn't it? A leopard doesn't change its spots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakae 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2016 Of course, because then it will question how the team was run in the Vettel/webber days wouldn't it? A leopard doesn't change its spots. Perhaps then you can also confirm, that in 2014 RBR management was trying to get rid of Vetttel, and DR really had it easy, as MV has. That's the line of thinking you are presenting here, isn't it the truth? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmcee 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2016 Nope, redbull wanted Vettel to stay and there was talks of extending his deal at the time. But when redbull got no response then finds out he had signed for Ferrari, then Vettel got upset because redbull weren't as involved with him in fear data would be taken to Ferrari, that's the truth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Publius Cornelius Scipio 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2016 I think that in 2014 Red Bull wanted Vettel to go, he was becoming too big and so they helped Ricciardo and not him (Canada 2014 IMHO is very similar to Spain 2016). Vettel had also a difficult year for other reasons (he was very young and coming from 4 WDCs that must have been extremely stressful) and so he left. Nowadays there's a lot of people who are suggesting that they handed the victory in Spain to Verstappen as a favour to Bernie who was finalising the last details of the new Heineken sponsorship. Obviously what happened in Monaco has nothing to do with this, it was a very bad mistake by RBR Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakae 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2016 Nope, redbull wanted Vettel to stay and there was talks of extending his deal at the time. But when redbull got no response then finds out he had signed for Ferrari, then Vettel got upset because redbull weren't as involved with him in fear data would be taken to Ferrari, that's the truth. Well, unless Horner or Marko are your intimate friends painting true picture for you, then you think that's what RB wanted, but in reality Horner was talking about consideration of extending Vettel's contract after it was revealed to public, that Vettel signed with Ferrari. I do a lot of reading (in 3 or 4 languages) on daily basis what's going on with Vettel, and I am quite sure of sequence of events in his last a few months with RB. I can also reveal to you (ask Lyria), that there was short time, when I was also suspicious of conspiracy against Vettel just as you are about DR. Reason why they did not want him, because media pressure. Pro Anglo-Webber media were slugging Vettel for this or that on daily basis, booing by idiots, etc., was really no good for selling fizzy drinks, and Vettel had to go, or play second fiddle, so when Ferrari called on him, he first refused, but when Sabine talked to him some more, he took it, especially when he really wanted to emulate his buddy, Michael. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites