Hamilton vs Bottas, Who wins?

[radical-one 0]

IF  Merc in fact push through in giving Nico's vacant seat to Bottas, will he be able to match or beat Hamilton ?

If given an evenly matched car, who wins the 2017 championship ?

 

[Sakae 0]

6 hours ago, radical-one said:

IF  Merc in fact push through in giving Nico's vacant seat to Bottas, will he be able to match or beat Hamilton ?

If given an evenly matched car, who wins the 2017 championship ?

 

Williams will be a winner in this saga (should Wolff pay the asking price, namely, give them 5 engines free as reported demand was).

Secondly, is Bottas's role to play a domestic, or an equal partner? Time will tell, but advantage Hamilton, for now. Everyone assumes that he will wipe floor with Bottas, thus if Finn should do a better job, conspiracy theories will hit the news.

Fact is, we do not know much about him, when chips are down. BTW, BBC run some polling on driver's ranking, and Bottas was in a view of fans in 18th position (out of 21). I am not sure if BBC meant to run popularity contest, or they just asked around and included people who do not watch races regularly or only heard about those.

[maure 1]

Hamilton is still ranting about sabotage and lack of equal opportunities. Still.

Mercedes, as a team, continues to encourage this behavior.

So if bottas brings results anywhere close to those of Hamilton, he will grow even more vocally violent and delusional. The English press will go along as they always do.

So the realquestion is, can Bottas beat Hamilton AND the press AND, likely, his own team? 

Only Rosberg and Alonso have survived the lynching this far. It will be cute to see Bottas try.

Last time we saw an upset like this, the "super star driver" was forced to run away to another team.

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah well according to Hamilton he beat alonso in 2007. Yeah on count back but correct me if Iam wrong, alonso had more dnf's than Hamilton had. Not to mention the team was "pre moulded" to suit Lewis before fernando or Lewis got there. 

[radical-one 0]

13 hours ago, Sakae said:

Williams will be a winner in this saga (should Wolff pay the asking price, namely, give them 5 engines free as reported demand was).

Secondly, is Bottas's role to play a domestic, or an equal partner? Time will tell, but advantage Hamilton, for now. Everyone assumes that he will wipe floor with Bottas, thus if Finn should do a better job, conspiracy theories will hit the news.

Fact is, we do not know much about him, when chips are down. BTW, BBC run some polling on driver's ranking, and Bottas was in a view of fans in 18th position (out of 21). I am not sure if BBC meant to run popularity contest, or they just asked around and included people who do not watch races regularly or only heard about those.

Yep it's probably a popularity contest like in Japan, Bottas doesn't rank very high and always lower than Massa due to the big population of Brazilians here.

  

[radical-one 0]

3 hours ago, maure said:

Hamilton is still ranting about sabotage and lack of equal opportunities. Still.

Mercedes, as a team, continues to encourage this behavior.

So if bottas brings results anywhere close to those of Hamilton, he will grow even more vocally violent and delusional. The English press will go along as they always do.

So the realquestion is, can Bottas beat Hamilton AND the press AND, likely, his own team? 

Only Rosberg and Alonso have survived the lynching this far. It will be cute to see Bottas try.

Last time we saw an upset like this, the "super star driver" was forced to run away to another team.

You're right. My guess is that Bottas would try and be the no.2 driver at least in the first season with Merc and perhaps if he can match Lewis' pace, he may go head to head in 2018. He also needs to get used of the Merc car for 2017.

[Sakae 0]

4 hours ago, maure said:

Hamilton is still ranting about sabotage and lack of equal opportunities. Still.

Mercedes, as a team, continues to encourage this behavior.

So if bottas brings results anywhere close to those of Hamilton, he will grow even more vocally violent and delusional. The English press will go along as they always do.

So the realquestion is, can Bottas beat Hamilton AND the press AND, likely, his own team? 

Only Rosberg and Alonso have survived the lynching this far. It will be cute to see Bottas try.

Last time we saw an upset like this, the "super star driver" was forced to run away to another team.

I am surprised, maybe because I've perhaps expected more from you, maure. 

[Sakae 0]

1 hour ago, radical-one said:

Yep it's probably a popularity contest like in Japan, Bottas doesn't rank very high and always lower than Massa due to the big population of Brazilians here.

Therein lies a problem with such useless surveys. Popularity context can be manipulated by external pressure, it is inevitably bias, and it tramples unnecessarily upon drivers, who perhaps deserve better treatment. School like bullying in media is not something which should be tolerated, yet hard to say what to do about it. Maybe social media channels can reflect our displeasure more aptly, altho I am not sure whether it makes any difference on someone who made his mind and closed the door.

[Emmcee 0]

42 minutes ago, Sakae said:

I am surprised, maybe because I've perhaps expected more from you, maure. 

Is that because his opinion on alonso differs from yours? I think he hit the nail on the head tbh.

[radical-one 0]

30 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Therein lies a problem with such useless surveys. Popularity context can be manipulated by external pressure, it is inevitably bias, and it tramples unnecessarily upon drivers, who perhaps deserve better treatment. School like bullying in media is not something which should be tolerated, yet hard to say what to do about it. Maybe social media channels can reflect our displeasure more aptly, altho I am not sure whether it makes any difference on someone who made his mind and closed the door.

On the school bullying it's a serious social problem here and not being addressed properly/directly. You know how it is here, they consider their so-called "Culture" first (although it's too outdated and counter productive) before addressing the real problem which by then is always too late.

[Emmcee 0]

That's the government mate, they spend time trying to make criminals out of people by revenue raising schemes than spending resources catching real criminals or tackling real issues because it's to hard. On bullying though, it's no different in schools or at the workplace, just when your older they expect you to "harden up" as they say and authorities can't do any about it, but take control of the situation yourself, oh no we can't have that, even though the bully took control of the situation themselves to begin with, like wtf. Like here in Queensland, all the cops target is speeding, not people merging on freeways 20kph or more under the speed limit which is extremely dangerous but they have the nerve to hide in unmarked cars and say it's saving lives. How stupid have people become? I thought actually seeing a patrol car would be better and not to mention there not actually officers in the camera vans but a company sub contracted out to conduct radar tests. What I get out of that is its legal to impersonate a police officer is it? Apparently so if your raising money for the government.

[Quiet One 15]

Hamilton is an egocentric douche (again, not the only one in F1) , it seems to affect his driving more than the other egocentric douches (Vettel, Alonso et al.), but he is still a great driver no matter how you measure his talent. The car made him a multi-championship winner, but it didn't make him a great driver. He always was.

Bottas is one of the most uninspiring drivers since Nico, minus the charima Nico had without a doubt. Perhaps he is a confidence driver a la Massa and steps up his game. But so far he has shown nothing that hints he can beat Hamilton even in the most equalized of fields.

[rodders47 2]

I was wife my wife at a very posh place in the UK for Xmas dinner when I heard two guys and a woman talking about F1 on the table next to me, they were all english, I am Australian. Anyway the topic got around to why Rosberg left F1 after winning the title and I couldn't help myself so I said " well would you want to stay with that team mate?" They chuckled a bit but I could see they must be HAMMY fans so the topic of conversation changed to football LOL  I thought it was quite funny

 

[maure 1]

18 hours ago, Emmcee said:

Yeah well according to Hamilton he beat alonso in 2007. Yeah on count back but correct me if Iam wrong, alonso had more dnf's than Hamilton had. Not to mention the team was "pre moulded" to suit Lewis before fernando or Lewis got there. 

I was talking about Vettel.

Alonso left because of the team not Hamilton. Vettel left because of his poor performance compared to Ricciardo.

16 hours ago, radical-one said:

You're right. My guess is that Bottas would try and be the no.2 driver at least in the first season with Merc and perhaps if he can match Lewis' pace, he may go head to head in 2018. He also needs to get used of the Merc car for 2017.

The Hamilton universe does not have room for more than Hamilton. If Bottas does not beat him, his career is over.

6 hours ago, Quiet One said:

Hamilton is an egocentric douche (again, not the only one in F1) , it seems to affect his driving more than the other egocentric douches (Vettel, Alonso et al.), but he is still a great driver no matter how you measure his talent. The car made him a multi-championship winner, but it didn't make him a great driver. He always was.

Bottas is one of the most uninspiring drivers since Nico, minus the charima Nico had without a doubt. Perhaps he is a confidence driver a la Massa and steps up his game. But so far he has shown nothing that hints he can beat Hamilton even in the most equalized of fields.

Hamilton is a good driver but not great. Other than that, +1 on all you say. I like Bottas but, yep, so far "uninspiring" is a good word for him.

 

[Massa 0]

Bottas does not have a large enough margin over Wehrlein as a driver to justify the cost of hiring Bottas over the cost of hiring Wehrlein.  And if you ask me, I think Wehrlein could have greater potential.  Recall that Bottas hasn't exactly had an easy time beating Massa, and Massa's honestly not very good.

Signing Bottas is a clear sign they want a designated number two, in my opinion, because that's about what Bottas strikes me as: Fisichella, Daddy's Good Boy who can go slow enough to impede the Red Bull and Ferrari drivers and win the race when Daddy's Bad Boy blows up.

The other oddity to Bottas is that, if Bottas is signed, all the "Vettel in 2018" or other rumors about 2018 must be crushed.  You do not pay money to release someone from a contract to have them for one year to replace them with someone else the next year.

Finally, I'm really wondering what Wehrlein is like off the track because he seems pretty good on it, but the fact Force India passed on him, Manor can't get a package for him, Mercedes won't promote him, and Mercedes has not even tried to get Williams to take him as compensation for Bottas tells me that there's something we don't know about Wehrlein.  Not like a huge controversy—just that perhaps he's not someone people like working with.  That's speculation, but I just can't see why he's so overlooked (well, I have one theory, but I know no one wants to hear my "the white nationalists who control F1 don't want the top team having two minorities in their respective home countries dominating" stuff.  Even if I know I'm right).

[Emmcee 0]

1 hour ago, maure said:

I was talking about Vettel.

Alonso left because of the team not Hamilton. Vettel left because of his poor performance compared to Ricciardo.

The Hamilton universe does not have room for more than Hamilton. If Bottas does not beat him, his career is over.

Hamilton is a good driver but not great. Other than that, +1 on all you say. I like Bottas but, yep, so far "uninspiring" is a good word for him.

 

Don't let sakae see that post about Vettel, he will give you a million reasons as to why your wrong even though it's the truth. Glad someone else can actually tell it how it is.

[maure 1]

7 hours ago, Massa said:

Bottas does not have a large enough margin over Wehrlein as a driver to justify the cost of hiring Bottas over the cost of hiring Wehrlein.  And if you ask me, I think Wehrlein could have greater potential.  Recall that Bottas hasn't exactly had an easy time beating Massa, and Massa's honestly not very good.

Signing Bottas is a clear sign they want a designated number two, in my opinion, because that's about what Bottas strikes me as: Fisichella, Daddy's Good Boy who can go slow enough to impede the Red Bull and Ferrari drivers and win the race when Daddy's Bad Boy blows up.

The other oddity to Bottas is that, if Bottas is signed, all the "Vettel in 2018" or other rumors about 2018 must be crushed.  You do not pay money to release someone from a contract to have them for one year to replace them with someone else the next year.

Finally, I'm really wondering what Wehrlein is like off the track because he seems pretty good on it, but the fact Force India passed on him, Manor can't get a package for him, Mercedes won't promote him, and Mercedes has not even tried to get Williams to take him as compensation for Bottas tells me that there's something we don't know about Wehrlein.  Not like a huge controversy—just that perhaps he's not someone people like working with.  That's speculation, but I just can't see why he's so overlooked (well, I have one theory, but I know no one wants to hear my "the white nationalists who control F1 don't want the top team having two minorities in their respective home countries dominating" stuff.  Even if I know I'm right).

+1 overall and an extra +1 for the last paragraph.

6 hours ago, Emmcee said:

Don't let sakae see that post about Vettel, he will give you a million reasons as to why your wrong even though it's the truth. Glad someone else can actually tell it how it is.

no worries, there is always tomorrow...

[Sakae 0]

9 hours ago, maure said:

I was talking about Vettel.

Alonso left because of the team not Hamilton. Vettel left because of his poor performance compared to Ricciardo.

I was actually aware about whom you were talking about. Alonso was dragged into that by someone else. Back to Vettel, lets say I doubt that assessment of the kind you presented is anywhere close to what actually happened at RBR in 2014. We all possess an opinion from time to time. Mine is merely a different one, although assertion that he has left the team is hard to dispute, thus I cannot avoid and argue the obvious.

[Emmcee 0]

WOAH! You finally admit it or did I read it wrong? So your saying it's ok to have a different opinion? Why doesn't that ever work in my case? You simply claim my opinions are wrong, is that because you don't want two or three people now who disagree with what you say. How rude of you to talk about me in third person so to speak, least have the decency to refer to me properly not in an aggressive demeaning way as I know that was your intention, how many sakae's is there because you flip flop your mindset when your proven wrong to try make me look like the bad guy, doesn't work on me as I know what to expect by now. Why don't you give maure the shopping list of excuse you always give me about Vettel?

[Sakae 0]

There are posts which are better left either unanswered, or as a point of reference left on neutral level, especially when there is laid a claim of the TRUTH. I am exceptionally picky when it comes to that. At a conceptual level, a precise theoretical rationale of assertion has yet to be articulated and accepted, claim experts. Unashamedly I do tolerate a different opinion, much more than some actually would give me credit for, I do however also reject the vilification tone, and groundless defamation of a person, especially when merely cultural differences come to fore. Plethora of opinions on a racing forum should not turn into preaching of absolutes that are masquerading as a social skill.

[Emmcee 0]

You jump to assumption all the time sakae and claim Iam doing this that and the other but it doesn't work when someone does it to you? I suggest you read that post you just posted and take your own advice, least you would be listening to someone for once. Your so hipocritical that I just laugh now instead of getting frustrated. I personally know someone who worked in the f1 paddock up until recently and worked with champion drivers for champion teams so I'd beleive them hell and high water than the dribble you come up with. 90% of the time, Iam just relaying what I've been told but just in my own words. It's quite funny how far off you can be at times but hey, that's just opinions hey? Lmao. Told you many times before, I'd have a heck of a lot more respect for you if you were just honest and told it how it is instead of being so biased, I don't dislike you or whatever I have grown to just accept your simply biased in ALL of your opinions. 

[maure 1]

2 hours ago, Sakae said:

I was actually aware about whom you were talking about. Alonso was dragged into that by someone else. Back to Vettel, lets say I doubt that assessment of the kind you presented is anywhere close to what actually happened at RBR in 2014. We all possess an opinion from time to time. Mine is merely a different one, although assertion that he has left the team is hard to dispute, thus I cannot avoid and argue the obvious.

Yep. I realized right away you got the reference. We'll leave this too for discussion at another time. It could be informative.

43 minutes ago, Sakae said:

There are posts which are better left either unanswered, or as a point of reference left on neutral level, especially when there is laid a claim of the TRUTH. I am exceptionally picky when it comes to that. At a conceptual level, a precise theoretical rationale of assertion has yet to be articulated and accepted, claim experts. Unashamedly I do tolerate a different opinion, much more than some actually would give me credit for, I do however also reject the vilification tone, and groundless defamation of a person, especially when merely cultural differences come to fore. Plethora of opinions on a racing forum should not turn into preaching of absolutes that are masquerading as a social skill.

I like this... even when it gets a bit runny.

[radical-one 0]

11 hours ago, Massa said:

Bottas does not have a large enough margin over Wehrlein as a driver to justify the cost of hiring Bottas over the cost of hiring Wehrlein.  And if you ask me, I think Wehrlein could have greater potential.  Recall that Bottas hasn't exactly had an easy time beating Massa, and Massa's honestly not very good.

Signing Bottas is a clear sign they want a designated number two, in my opinion, because that's about what Bottas strikes me as: Fisichella, Daddy's Good Boy who can go slow enough to impede the Red Bull and Ferrari drivers and win the race when Daddy's Bad Boy blows up.

The other oddity to Bottas is that, if Bottas is signed, all the "Vettel in 2018" or other rumors about 2018 must be crushed.  You do not pay money to release someone from a contract to have them for one year to replace them with someone else the next year.

Finally, I'm really wondering what Wehrlein is like off the track because he seems pretty good on it, but the fact Force India passed on him, Manor can't get a package for him, Mercedes won't promote him, and Mercedes has not even tried to get Williams to take him as compensation for Bottas tells me that there's something we don't know about Wehrlein.  Not like a huge controversy—just that perhaps he's not someone people like working with.  That's speculation, but I just can't see why he's so overlooked (well, I have one theory, but I know no one wants to hear my "the white nationalists who control F1 don't want the top team having two minorities in their respective home countries dominating" stuff.  Even if I know I'm right).

 Wehrlein value for money - I agree. 

And hungrier to beat Lewis , will take more risk than Bottas - My guess.

[Sakae 0]

Wehrlein has already in very concrete manner signaled how he will probably respond when pit-wall will inform him - "Pascal, Hamilton is faster than you".

Hard to say what Bottas would do in such case, but my guess is, he would be probably just as malleable as Rosberg was.

[Emmcee 0]

What's everyone's REALISTIC opinion of both Bottas and werhlein? Who will be the better and who will be the most respectful to the team? Who deserves it more? It's all hard to say isn't?