Sauber Steadily Improving

[Max Mosley 2]

Points-wise Jacques might beet Massa. However if that does indeed happen, expect the two aforementioned ordinary individuals to twist and turn their 'opinions' and only show the stats which will suit them and not show the full picture. They have been this for a long time now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please provide some evidence next time you make some accusations.

[Max Mosley 2]

How come Murray when we talk about JPM and Button you refuse to take "FACTS" in to consideration, and when you talk about JV "FACTS" become important. Is it because you chose to use "FACTS" whenever they suit your argument. Why can't you decide on something and use the same logic for everything.

I hear you fellas CC & YHR, this has been the case for a long time and I do not expect that to change. Stats, facts will play a role only if it comes to their aid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're confused as usual Monty. We do use facts when we discuss JPM too. For instance we use the fact that he's been completely obliterated by his team-mate all season to support our opinion that he's not as good as the top drivers. However at least you admit we do also discuss other underperforming drivers, another thing the JV fanatics refuse to admit.

[Fed up 0]

F1 Racing half term report

JV -

Ranking 21st out of 24 drivers

Report;

So, JV, what's gone wrong?

It didn't look particularly promising last year with those awful Renault outings. Its all right, you said, you'd train over the winter and fully test these new F1 cars.

But this season is turning into an embarrassment for the former WDC. Off the pace, unable to drive the Sauber C24 fast, out-of-the-ble press releases explaining rubbish test sessions, public slagging of the team - want us to go on?

Okay: that optimistic lunge on Massa: boss Peter Sauber saying you're "too slow..."

Felipe Massa

Ranking 11th

Report;

One thing is obvious: Felipe has obliterated his tugger of a team mate, JV. But, so our jury think at least, he's also done a significantly better job than last year. It helps perceptions, of course, being up against a tired old ex-champ rather than a freakishly quick GF.

Even so, there's a general feeling that a FM stock is slowly, steadily rising. His race lap consistency is a continual subject of praise at Sauber, and he's finally using his in-car aggression to good effect. Still, 'erratic' is a hard label to unstick.

I agree with both driver assessments

[Max Mosley 2]

Yes, overall now I would probably rate him higher than that (maybe 13,14) but I agree exactly with Massa, and maybe with JV when you take the whole season into account so far. So the reality is that JV is just about matching now a slightly below average driver. I hope he continues to improve but he really ought to be beating him already. Why is he making so many mistakes still? Thats the issue for me not "well if only he could reduce the errors then he'd be really good". The point is he should have already.

[CC 0]

Well you are certainly the most offensive person in this thread as you are the only one to resort to personal insults.  Quite ironic considering you're telling me not to attack people.  Perhaps you should think about that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have resorted to questing a member

[Fed up 0]

Yes, overall now I would probably rate him higher than that (maybe 13,14) but I agree exactly with Massa, and maybe with JV when you take the whole season into account so far.  So the reality is that JV is just about matching now a slightly below average driver.  I hope he continues to improve but he really ought to be beating him already.  Why is he making so many mistakes still? Thats the issue for me not "well if only he could reduce the errors then he'd be really good".  The point is he should have already.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pure and simple

[Max Mosley 2]

You have resorted to questing a member

[Max Mosley 2]

"Of course he was committed to doing well earlier on, it would foolish to suggest otherwise as Jacques is a racing driver and always wants to race well all the time, even if sometimes he can

[CC 0]

If you are not to appear hypocritical I think more of an apology is required not just an explanation.  I am sorry for frustrating you but I feel the same sometimes.

I honestly don't remember questioning any member's intelligence ever (again please provide evidence when you make accusations).  In fact even Monty (in YHR's goodbye I believe) has recently said "any debate with {me} would be civil".  I have strongly disagreed with posts however and may extremely rarely have made jokes about how biased they were but you'd be hard pressed to interpret them as serious personal insults or questioning of a member's IQ.  As far as I can see its you who resorts to insults when you get annoyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said there are a number of people who do that, who act superior to every one else at the expense (sometimes) of some ones feelings. You are certainly one of the

[Max Mosley 2]

As I said there are a number of people who do that, who act superior to every one else at the expense (sometimes) of some ones feelings. You are certainly one of the

[YHR 0]

F1 Racing half term report

JV -

Ranking 21st out of 24 drivers

Report;

So, JV, what's gone wrong?

It didn't look particularly promising last year with those awful Renault outings. Its all right, you said, you'd train over the winter and fully test these new F1 cars.

But this season is turning into an embarrassment for the former WDC. Off the pace, unable to drive the Sauber C24 fast, out-of-the-ble press releases explaining rubbish test sessions, public slagging of the team - want us to go on?

Okay: that optimistic lunge on Massa: boss Peter Sauber saying you're "too slow..."

Felipe Massa

Ranking 11th

Report;

One thing is obvious: Felipe has obliterated his tugger of a team mate, JV. But, so our jury think at least, he's also done a significantly better job than last year. It helps perceptions, of course, being up against a tired old ex-champ rather than a freakishly quick GF.

Even so, there's a general feeling that a FM stock is slowly, steadily rising. His race lap consistency is a continual subject of praise at Sauber, and he's finally using his in-car aggression to good effect. Still, 'erratic' is a hard label to unstick.

I agree with both driver assessments

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Fed up. Would you care to comment where Jensen Button was rated in this same report.

[YHR 0]

If you are not to appear hypocritical I think more of an apology is required not just an explanation.  I am sorry for frustrating you but I feel the same sometimes.

I honestly don't remember questioning any member's intelligence ever (again please provide evidence when you make accusations).  In fact even Monty (in YHR's goodbye I believe) has recently said "any debate with {me} would be civil".  I have strongly disagreed with posts however and may extremely rarely have made jokes about how biased they were but you'd be hard pressed to interpret them as serious personal insults or questioning of a member's IQ.  As far as I can see its you who resorts to insults when you get annoyed.

Finally I'm glad you agree with my main point, unlike many other JV fan(atics).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Murray

Where there is smoke there is usuallly fire. Respectfully I suggest you should climb down of your high horse, and realize that if people are instinctively feeling attacked by you then perhaps your delivery needs some work. It is not so much what you say but how you say it.

I think you generalize a lot about JV fans. Contrary to your belief I am very much a moderate. I do however react to comments made by you and especially Senna. You bring out the worst in me. I wonder why that is???

Anyway I respect your right to disagree with most everything I say about JV. It is, in fact, almost predictable

Funny thing is I rate him 10th you rate him 14th, Overall we pretty much agree. :

I think it is like two people looking at a glass filled to 50% with water. To one it is half full, to the other it is half empty. Regardless of the adjectives used and opinions thrown out the fact is the glass is still half full, or empty depending on your position.

Peace my friend. If we get rid of all the rhetoric, we may be closer in opinions then you would want to believe

Thanks CC for running interference for me.

[kenneth 0]

yeah man no comment... i'm waiting the german gp ,first then the end of the season to talk..... cu mates....

[nojvnof1 0]

I'd take that F1 Racing thing with a grain of salt. Bishop and Windsor, two of the biggest JV bashers in the press write in that POS (piece of $hit - pardon the obscenity). They'd find something to critique Jacques had he won 19 races in a Minardi.

Don't take this as blinkered or anything of the like trying to ignore criticisms of JV, you are all aware of my position re. JV and his season and I believe to have been fair in my assessments, but what those F1 Racing guys say is just rubbish, and can only hold water if they were talking about the first 3 races of the year, but there have been 10 or 11 (can't remember how many ).

I know of no other driver subjected to such personal and indepth criticism such as the following

"But this season is turning into an embarrassment for the former WDC. Off the pace - for the first three races and Silverstone, unable to drive the Sauber C24 fast - Imola, Magny-Cours, Monaco just 3 I can think of where he was fast, out-of-the-ble press releases explaining rubbish test sessions - I'd have thought he was right to explain to those interested, namely his fans what exactly is going on and why the $hit had hit the fan with the team, public slagging of the team - all he said was that car was slow, nearly every driver on the grid has called their car slow at one point in the career. He also said that the team weren't listening to him, which was true - want us to go on?

Okay: that optimistic lunge on Massa - fair call, dumbest attempted move of the year : boss Peter Sauber saying you're "too slow..." - again taken out of context, he said this prior to Imola about JV's quali laps, which at the time the comment was granted, but this is a review of the season to date, not the first 3 races.

What's with this "want us to go on? ok" This is nothing but another blatant personal attack on the guy. Fine, criticise, but don't totally omit all the positives, of what there are a few. I'm not surprised they conveniently omitted any positive things JV has done (Imola, development of TC, new front wing, quali in France, Silverstone and his pace in Monaco). For those who care, I'd rate JV about 12th or so, with Massa somewhere between 7-10.

[Fed up 0]

There were 28 jurors on the panel and included ex F1 drivers and journalists from around the world.

JPM was slated by the panel - JB is beginning to attract criticism for failing to hold off MS at Imola and his crash at Canada.

KR got the top marks

[Monty 0]

There were 28 jurors on the panel and included ex F1 drivers and journalists from around the world.

JPM was slated by the panel - JB is beginning to attract criticism for failing to hold off MS at Imola and his crash at Canada.

KR got the top marks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fedup, do you have link for this article. Not that I don't trust you, just wanted to read the article and see what they have to say about other drivers. thanks

[Fed up 0]

Fedup, do you have link for this article. Not that I don't trust you,  just wanted to read the article and see what they have to say about other drivers. thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Monty no link, the article is in the August issue of F1 Racing magazine. For your info this is what was said about JPM

Pay attention, please, Juan Pablo. It doesn't take a genius to see that you're a long way behind kimi. But look a little closer:you've also been beaten by one of the men who replaced you while you were off sick, Alex Wurz. Granted, you were a bit quicker than Kimi in Canada. But then you saw red - or, rather didn't - on the way out of the pit lane and threw your comeback away. It takes more to impress our jury.

Ranking 13th out of 24

[Monty 0]

Sorry Monty no link, the article is in the August issue of F1 Racing magazine. For your info this is what was said about JPM

Pay attention, please, Juan Pablo. It doesn't take a genius to see that you're a long way behind kimi. But look a little closer:you've also been beaten by one of the men who replaced you while you were off sick, Alex Wurz. Granted, you were a bit quicker than Kimi in Canada. But then you saw red - or, rather didn't   - on the way out of the pit lane and threw your comeback away. It takes more to impress our jury.

Ranking 13th out of 24

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh Ok. Those b#####ds

Thanks fedup.

[Max Mosley 2]

Murray

Where there is smoke there is usuallly fire.   Respectfully I suggest you should climb down of your high horse, and realize that if people are instinctively feeling attacked by you then perhaps your delivery needs some work.

Unfortunately this shows where we differ. So far I am the only one to have been insulted personally in this thread and it was by someone who was protesting about how rude I am! However he and you have so far failed to produce any evidence to support your claim that I have "questioned member's intelligence" and so it is you and he that have been the most offensive not me. I feel quite happy on my high horse this time.

It is not so much what you say but how you say it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you should pay more attention to the substance of a post and stop being hypersensitive and feeling insulted with no justification.

Regarding the rest of your post I agree with much of it as should have been obvious from my first post. However I object to the constant attempts to make JV look better than he is by "what if" statements etc.

[Fed up 0]

Thanks Fed up.  Would you care to comment where Jensen Button was rated in this same  report.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

JB's half term report;

Is it just the car, the unreliable and, up until Indy, pointless B.A.R - Honda 007 thats put Jenson eight places down on last year? Admittedly, when you're tonking around the midfield people tend to pay less attention.

But the niggling suspicion remains from what we have seen, that Jenson's driving this year has lacked a certain...what? Sure, he hasn't had the car - but on occasion he's failed to make the most of what he has had: eg, failing to hold off a rampant MS at Imola and decking the wall in Canada

Ranked 10th

[YHR 0]

Unfortunately this shows where we differ.  So far I am the only one to have been insulted personally in this thread and it was by someone who was protesting about how rude I am!  However he and you have so far failed to produce any evidence to support your claim that I have "questioned member's intelligence" and so it is you and he that have been the most offensive not me.  I feel quite happy on my high horse this time.

I think you should pay more attention to the substance of a post and stop being hypersensitive and feeling insulted with no justification.

Regarding the rest of your post I agree with much of it as should have been obvious from my first post.  However I object to the constant attempts to make JV look better than he is by "what if" statements etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Fair enough, a leopard can't change its spots. I just mentioned you may want to look at the reason for your post. If you throw sand in someones face there is going to be a reaction.

2. I think in sport, this is fairly common from fans. I am not sure why it would bother you so much to let the JV fans do what they like do to do best. I mean "What ifs'" are clearly subjective view points discussed to turn a silk purse out of a sows ear. Some of these remarks are enlightening and really point to areas that need improvement. I would really much sooner be talking about a silk purse, but all I have been given is a sows ear.

JV has fans, you might as well get used to it. IMO a good fan is a guy who stands behind his driver through good times and bad, and it appears as if JV has some loyal fans.

[monza gorilla 1]

1.  Fair enough, a leopard can't change its spots.  I just mentioned you may want to look at the reason for your post.  If you throw sand in someones face there is going to be a reaction. 

2. I think in sport, this is fairly common from fans.  I am not sure why it would bother you so much to let the JV fans do what they like do to do best.  I mean "What ifs'" are clearly subjective view points discussed to turn a silk purse out of a sows ear.  Some of these remarks are enlightening and really point to areas that need improvement. I would really much sooner be talking about a silk purse, but all I have been given is a sows ear.

JV has fans, you might as well get used to it.  IMO a good fan is a guy who stands behind his driver through good times and bad, and it appears as if JV has some loyal fans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been following this exchange for a while. Your comment that a subjective view can be enlightening is something I agree with. That's how you have a discussion. Dry facts will never give a complete picture.

Sorry to interrupt - you can go back to arguing with Murray now

[CC 0]

1.  Fair enough, a leopard can't change its spots.  I just mentioned you may want to look at the reason for your post.  If you throw sand in someones face there is going to be a reaction. 

2. I think in sport, this is fairly common from fans.  I am not sure why it would bother you so much to let the JV fans do what they like do to do best.  I mean "What ifs'" are clearly subjective view points discussed to turn a silk purse out of a sows ear.  Some of these remarks are enlightening and really point to areas that need improvement.  I would really much sooner be talking about a silk purse, but all I have been given is a sows ear.

JV has fans, you might as well get used to it.  IMO a good fan is a guy who stands behind his driver through good times and bad, and it appears as if JV has some loyal fans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bravo, you are indeed a valuable member of the forum[/senna]

Everything in the post quoted is spot on.

[Monty 0]

JV has fans, you might as well get used to it.  IMO a good fan is a guy who stands behind his driver through good times and bad, and it appears as if JV has some loyal fans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You couldn't have put it any better. Spot on.

[CC 0]

You couldn't have put it any better. Spot on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I second this.