Sauber Steadily Improving

[YHR 0]

Just an observation that Sauber has been steadily improving, and the cars seem to have leap frogged the nearest competitors.

I wonder how much of this is because of JV's and Massa's input, or is this all just wind tunnel engineering?

As a JV fan, I obviously hope that his input is now being listened to and that the team is working well together. I am hoping that JV is contibuting in a fashoin that will make him a valuable asset in the new BMW team.

The great thing is that JV has half a year to show his skills. He can now out qualify Massa, but needs to cut down on some errors he is making. How many think JV perfomance of late has earned him an F1 seat.

Now obviously the lollipop incident in Britian was a huge mistake, but if we ignore that I have to believe his performanc on the track has been very good. After his mistake dropped him down the field in with RBR and Williams, I thought he drove a very good race showing passing skills getting past DC, and good defensive skills, as that battle was very tight.

Now there are a few JV bashers who can't show the JV the door soon enough. If you want to comment fine, but I am more interested in the unbiased race fan's opinion of JV's CURRENT race craft.

Has he demonstated that he still deserves a seat. I think he has.

If you are of the opinion he doesn't deserve a seat, I would also like to here the other drivers in the curent field who also should be out of F1

[Null 0]

As a JV fan, I obviously hope that his input is now being listened to and that the team is working well together. I am hoping that JV is contibuting in a fashoin that will make him a valuable asset in the new BMW team.

If you are of the opinion he doesn't deserve a seat, I would also like to here the other drivers in the curent field who also should be out of F1

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, from the pit wall at most...

and other drivers who don't deserve a seat are Karthikeyan and er... that's about it really... maybe just maybe Sato as well but he's a character and it would be sad to lose him.

[Null 0]

before you get me wrong, I'm not saying JV doesn't deserve a drive in F1, I just don't think he'll be with BMW next season, or any team which is better than that, there are too many other drivers which are more outstanding than JV in his current and more recent form.

[YHR 0]

before you get me wrong, I'm not saying JV doesn't deserve a drive in F1, I just don't think he'll be with BMW next season, or any team which is better than that, there are too many other drivers which are more outstanding than JV in his current and more recent form.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well you basically said in your first post that no one other then the indian Jordon driver is worse. So I would tend to think that your comment a liittle bias, as I doubt many people here would consider JV 's current perfomance that bad..

The intent of the question was before you call for JV's head is to think about the other drivers results this year. if you really feel JV is that bad we have a very large difference of opinion.

I am of the opinion if JV isn't good enough to be in F1 then there are least 8 other drivers that should go as well.

[Max Mosley 2]

I suspect Massa has had more to do with it because Sauber didn't let JV near the car for a while as you were telling us. Of course he's contributed a bit though. No-one doubts his technical ability its the rest of his game that has declined.

[Max Mosley 2]

I am of the opinion if JV isn't good enough to be in F1 then there are least 8 other drivers that should go as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't say JV was in the top 11. Even then he's only going to get worse whereas the drivers he's currently better than at Minardi, Jordan may improve so they deserve their seat more imo.

[JayStorm 0]

Well, since BMW are taking over the team, they're all in hot competition to get the 2 seats available, heidfeld looks likely to get one of the seats, leaving just one spot available. As for who is going to get the shot, it's either going to be Massa or Villeneuve. I think it will depend entirely on the results at the end of the season.

JS.

[Max Mosley 2]

Now obviously the lollipop incident in Britian was a huge mistake, but if we ignore that I have to believe his performanc on the track has been very good.  After his mistake dropped him down the field in with  RBR and Williams, I thought he drove a very good race showing passing skills getting past DC, and good defensive skills, as that battle was very tight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Isn't this the very issue though YHR? If we ignore Sato's mistakes he might actually be a half-decent driver. Unfortunately the points system isn't so kind. JV has made mistakes in the last 2 races so I don't really think overall (which is what ultimately matters) his performace has been amazing.

As for his raw pace in Britain he was significantly slower than Massa during the race (as nojvnof1 bravely admitted) but in other races they have been evenly matched. Before this season few would have rated Massa particularly highly as he was convincingly beaten by Fisi last year so for me to really praise JV he will have to do the same, then I will say he's as good as Fisi, which is a long way behind the best.

I would probably rate JV around 13-14th in F1 overall, where would you?

[Null 0]

Well you basically said in your first post that no one other then the indian Jordon driver is worse.  So I would tend to think that your comment a liittle bias, as I doubt many people here would consider JV 's current perfomance that bad..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What? No, I never said JV should be out of F1 or was indeed worse than all but the indian jordan driver! I just said karthikeyan should be out of F1, no question about it! I like JV and massa equally, although massa's links with ferrari mean that bmw may be more likely to retain massa until ferrari has a space which it would be almost inevitable that massa will fill it, meaning that JV will probably be without a drive in BMW, since it's very likely they will have heidfeld as the other driver, much more so than JV.

As for your initial point, I reckon it's just a combination of the drivers and neither one in particular. Sauber are only getting back to where they were a couple of years ago, they went a bit downhill since then (maybe because they got rid of nick.....) but now, they seem to just be regaining the same kind position in F1 as they had a couple of years ago.

[Null 0]

sorry to ramble on about silly season talk but I just had a thought;

If Button were to stay at BAR (which he should if he has any sense) and Heidfeld were to go to BMW, this leaves a space at Williams who won't be wanting to fill that space with Rosberg (for 2006 anyway ), they will want someone who has the experience and has proven themselves to be a good driver. I think this is where JV could end up next season, I see no reason why he shouldn't (unless Gary Paffett turns up in F1 which I would love but that's besides the point and I don't think that will happen next season anyway)

[Senna 0]

I suspect Massa has had more to do with it because Sauber didn't let JV near the car for a while as you were telling us.  Of course he's contributed a bit though.  No-one doubts his technical ability its the rest of his game that has declined.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed.

[Senna 0]

JV has improved significantly from the start of the season when he was clearly the slowest driver in F1. However, he is still behind Massa and as Murray rightly points out, Massa was beaten by Fisichella who is being trounced by Alonso regardless of differing reliability records. Therefore Massa is not an exceptional talent and JV really should be beating him and must probably do so on a consistent basis to retain his seat for 2006.

PS I should have some photos of Jacques Villeneuve

[YHR 0]

Isn't this the very issue though YHR?  If we ignore Sato's mistakes he might actually be a half-decent driver.  Unfortunately the points system isn't so kind.  JV has made mistakes in the last 2 races so I don't really think overall (which is what ultimately matters) his performace has been amazing.

As for his raw pace in Britain he was significantly slower than Massa during the race (as nojvnof1 bravely admitted) but in other races they have been evenly matched.  Before this season few would have rated Massa particularly highly as he was convincingly beaten by Fisi last year so for me to really praise JV he will have to do the same, then I will say he's as good as Fisi, which is a long way behind the best.

I would probably rate JV around 13-14th in F1 overall, where would you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually his pace dropped after his error and he was caught in traffic racing for position. He qualified better, and had a strong race going until his pit error.

Still you are correct, his errors are costing him, the same way other top drivers are making errors that have been hurting them. I can't be critical of Button for hitting a wall and then gloss over a JV mistake. I agree he needs to start driving like a WDC or his days will be numbered, and rightly so. I think JV will be the first to admit that. But I am starting to see flashes of the old JV, and that is what I am hopeful for for the rest of the year.

I think Massa has improved immensly, and if you believe the rumors, Ferrari thinks so too. Still If JV is to prove he deserves a seat he must continue to out qualify Massa and finish ahead of him in the races. I think he has the ability to do just that for the rest of the year.

If he does I rate 5-10th(I think there are four drivers currently the class of the field. 5-10th is a toss up on any given day. If he continues to shoot himself in the foot by making his own mistakes, I feel he will call it a day, when he realizes he no longer is a top ten driver.

[YHR 0]

JV has improved significantly from the start of the season when he was clearly the slowest driver in F1.  However, he is still behind Massa and as Murray rightly points out, Massa was beaten by Fisichella who is being trounced by Alonso regardless of differing reliability records.  Therefore Massa is not an exceptional talent and JV really should be beating him and must probably do so on a consistent basis to retain his seat for 2006. 

PS I should have some photos of Jacques Villeneuve

[YHR 0]

We will see what happens for the rest of the year. If JV can do the job, then I think Sauber/BMW will be happy with the driver line up with Massa/Villenueve for another year. Heidfield can then join the team in 2007 when it may very well be a top four team.

Honestly Webber and Hiedfield have been less then impressive lately, and you have got to wonder what kind of feedback they are supplying the engineers, as Williams seems to be moving backward.

[YHR 0]

Well, since BMW are taking over the team, they're all in hot competition to get the 2 seats available, heidfeld looks likely to get one of the seats, leaving just one spot available. As for who is going to get the shot, it's either going to be Massa or Villeneuve. I think it will depend entirely on the results at the end of the season.

JS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you may be right, although if Massa and Villeneuve continue to finish close to each other and the Sauber continuely gets more competitive, they may just leave the duo together and replace JV with NH in 2007.

The team seems to be working together and Sauber is getting better. Why wreck a good thing. JV and Massa could do a good job next year as the BMW mark is put on the team. In 2007 they can move in NH, and he will be there to reap the reward of all the work done.

[jerry 0]

i think karthikeyan shiuld be in formula 1 .he has to calm down a bit,i mean monteiro has done nothing but wait in the shadows and then cooly overtake when karthikeyan makes a mistake, monteiro has qualified worse than even the minardis

[C.A.L. 0]

I think J.V. should easily be in F1 on his talents alone.

Sauber have hindered both development and testing time for the C24 and J.V.'s return to F1 properly. Massa , the C24 and J.V. has been slowed more than on a normal team ,but this affects J.V. more due to the very little testing/ setup/ adjustments etc. he has been allowed or more so Not allowed.

J.V. has made mistakes but he would of scored even more points had he not had them, so ....Massa at best would of only gotten one more race into the points had he not had a engine blow out before Imola and not much else.

Other drivers had made several mistakes also on the other F1 teams, its just less brought up. Massa could barely pass Coulthard at Imola and J.V. has shown a far better ability there on several drivers already so he is finding his feel again no doubt.

Still more potential with J.V. and his better tire care will yield even better developement opportunities when they can exploit them with better wind-tunnel usage as BMW tops up the engineers at Sauber.

Presently I am not sure BMW will want to keep J.V. next year and I am not sure J.V. will want to stay there with the 2006 changes to many teams. He may truly look forward to getting rid of the goofy (Ferrari set-in-stone) braking limitations and limited Sauber support generally...but still a BMW V8 may not come through as a top engine unit against the other BIG team expenditures efforts anyways.

How well J.V. can perform in the remaining F1 races this year compared to the other close-in-competition drivers will give him added value. Strong races completions will do good.

J.V. can do alot of good by taking more aggressive qualifing efforts I think. The slower twisty tracks could return better scoring results like Imola performances ...J.V. needs the most from each complete race finish.

[nojvnof1 0]

"JV has improved significantly from the start of the season when he was clearly the slowest driver in F1."

that's abit over the top. He was faster than both Minardi's and Jordan's. Yes, dismal I know, but clearly not the slowest in F1. As for JV's influence in the team, I believe it to be significant. He was the key for the development of the first new front wing - not the one at Silverstone, but the one in my sig pic at Monaco - and played a major role in the improvement of their Traction Control software. Prior to Imola he gave the team 4-5 pages of notes informing them of his opinion on how to improve it, and both drivers have acknowledged it to be better than the previous version.

Whilst JV's pace at Silverstone was effected by traffic and the like, he was still slower than Massa accounting for that after JV's disabolic first stop. Having said that, he has been on par if not better than Massa of last, especially in quali and on heavier fuel, Canada and France two examples. I can honestly say this, with hand on heart, that Jacques Villeneuve deserves to be in F1 next year, and with the BMW team. He has the experience that a new team need and his speed is much more respectable.

Alistair, just on your comment about JV having low tyre wear at Silverstone, I know you might not be interested but there is an explanation for it. The Sauber chassis was designed for BStones and is not making full use of the Michelin's as a result. Remember the talk of there being a fundamental design flaw pre season? A few races into the season, Sauber came out and said this is that flaw, and nothing can be done as the costs to make a 'b' chassis would cost too much, so the drivers had to make do.

This flaw then means that the tyres aren't used to their full capabilities and take alot of time to generate heat - hence the low tyre wear. JV says that the car is at its best on tracks where soft compound tyres can be used as they can use them without the worry of wearing them out as the car doesn't work them too much, however on tracks where hard compounds are needed, it won't be too good as they take some time to heat up properly. Having said that, Jacques has been very good at conserving his tyres all year and the driver of course plays a vital role in this.

Should JV not be in F1, then neither should Ralf or Sato.

[kenneth 0]

i don't want to repeat all that but JV is getting better and better , i predict a big surprise this year from him ...

[blueboots 0]

People who critise JV's performances this year seem to forget the much more dismal Montoya, Fisichella, Sato and Ralf. These guys have fantastic cars and they just don't cut it.

JV is pretty much even with his teamate unlike the previously mentioned drivers.

Speaking with a Technician at Sauber, after the team started to listen to JV's input, they developed the new front wing, a new rear end and new TC software which significantly improved performance on the Sauber.

Although JV has been less than stellar this season, he has been solid. I think BMW will keep the Duo of JV and Massa next year. I have not heard or seen any evidence that BMW want Nick for 06. This is pure speculation because he happens to be German.

[Shadow 0]

Although JV has been less than stellar this season, he has been solid.  I think BMW will keep the Duo of JV and Massa next year.  I have not heard or seen any evidence that BMW want Nick for 06.  This is pure speculation because he happens to be German.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

actually that was exactly what i thought

[YHR 0]

I think J.V. should easily be in F1 on his talents alone.

Sauber have hindered both development and testing time for the C24 and J.V.'s return to F1 properly. Massa , the C24 and J.V. has been slowed more than on a normal team ,but this affects J.V. more due to the very little testing/ setup/ adjustments etc. he has been allowed or more so Not allowed.

J.V. has made mistakes but he would of scored even more points had he not had them, so ....Massa at best would of only gotten one more race into the points had he not had a engine blow out before Imola and not much else.

Other drivers had made several mistakes also on the other F1 teams, its just less brought up. Massa could barely pass Coulthard at Imola and J.V. has shown a far better ability there on several drivers already so he is finding his feel again no doubt.

...J.V. needs the most from each complete race finish.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is a good point, and one I hadn't thought of. Massa, who seems to be drivng faultless is only one point ahead of JV. JV on the other hand has made some costly errors. Without those errors, he would be way out front of Massa. However, as Murray suggested, Sato without his errors would be leading the WDC Still it is a good point you bring up. Looking at it that way JV has demonstrated he has more potential then Massa.

[YHR 0]

"JV has improved significantly from the start of the season when he was clearly the slowest driver in F1."

that's abit over the top.

Should JV not be in F1, then neither should Ralf or Sato.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. He just can't help himself

2. Sato, Ralf and a few others in my opinion. Even an "off his game" JV is better then a lot of drivers who have seats in F1.

I think with the improved Sauber, JV now has the potential to show us what he's got. An error free Villeneuve would be fun to watch.

[Max Mosley 2]

That is a good point, and one I hadn't thought of.  Massa, who seems to be drivng faultless is only one point ahead of JV.  JV on the other hand has made some costly errors.  Without those errors, he would be way out front of Massa.  However, as Murray suggested, Sato without his errors would be leading the WDC   Still it is a good point you bring up.  Looking at it that way JV has demonstrated he has more potential then Massa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No its not a good point for the reasons we have already discussed, although I never said Sato'd lead WDC without his many errors. Regarding the points diffrence, at Imola both BARs were disqualified and Massa penalised in qualifying, so JV has had his share of good luck.