Whose Fault

[funkejay 0]

It is elementary really... Perhaps after a weekend of relaxation Jay will come to his senses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well bajo, I think we've reached stalemate, as I don't believe any further argument will persuade you to reconsider your interpretation of this incident. As for me, I see it quite simply - as the lapping car JPM had the right of way, TM refused to give way, and I do not buy that JPM brake tested TM (BTW, I don't think that you're characterization fairly represents what happened, nor is it the only interpretation that is supported by the video).

In any event, it wasn't merely poor etiquite for TM to not back off, it was a risky and dangerous manoeuver when being overtaken/lapped, as failure to follow the rules when being lapped can have potentially fatal consequences. JPM was entitled (and correct) to assume that TM would back off (at the very least) when he saw him alongside, and allow him back onto the racing line (which as one of thes leaders/lapping cars he was entitled to). If TM doesn't know (or won't follow) the rules, then he should not be racing at this level, and he certainly shouldn't be misquoting the rules in an attempt to justify his error.

As the lapped car, the onus was on TM to avoid JPM and not get in his way as he lapped him, and not the other way around.

I stand by my position on this one (which I am confident is shared by most F1 observers), and I'm equally certain that if you ever take up racing yourself, you will eventually come to see it the same way.

[funkejay 0]

On a final note, the poll here has it roughly 60% to 40% that it was TM's fault, so even the weight of opinion on this forum suggests that JPM was not responsible for this one.

[bajo39 0]

On a final note, the poll here has it roughly 60% to 40% that it was TM's fault, so even the weight of opinion on this forum suggests that JPM was not responsible for this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nonsense. The poll suggests that they were both partly to blame, Monteiro slightly moreso. I can understand the forum reacting in this way as surely Monteiro did not perform his duty as a backmarker to get the hell out of the way, as you so eloquently put it, and he did slam into the back of Montoya and that obvious fact alone tends to sway a great deal of opinion. However, I think you and I can agree, if not on the proportions, that both drivers were partly to blame?

BTW Hope you enjoyed your weekend but one wonders where in Manitoba you went. I have driven through and could not discern a difference between one spot and any other. Perhaps you crossed over to Sask. to visit the beautiful Q'Appelle Valley as I did?

[bajo39 0]

Nonsense.  The poll suggests that they were both partly to blame, Monteiro slightly moreso.  I can understand the forum reacting in this way as surely Monteiro did not perform his duty as a backmarker to get the hell out of the way, as you so eloquently put it, and he did slam into the back of Montoya and that obvious fact alone tends to sway a great deal of opinion.  However, I think you and I can agree, if not on the proportions, that both drivers were partly to blame?

BTW  Hope you enjoyed your weekend but one wonders where in Manitoba you went.  I have driven through and could not discern a difference between one spot and any other.  Perhaps you crossed over to Sask. to visit the beautiful Q'Appelle Valley as I did?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jay?

[funkejay 0]

Jay?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope, just travelled across the province to see my daughter.

As for the poll results, I don't think that you can read them to say that the pollers are saying that JPM and TM are both partly to blame, with 40% ascribed to JPM and 60% ascribed to TM. That would be so if there had been some way to ask people to apportion blame on a weighted basis, but that's not what the poll asked.

I don't want to appear to be splitting hairs with you bajo, but the poll merely asked who was to blame for the incident. In fairness, the results can only be interpreted to say that 40% of people felt that JPM was to blame, while 60% felt TM was to blame.

But, also in fairness to you, I agree that it is safe to assume that very few people would say it was entirely JPM's or TM's fault, but where that balance would be struck on an aggregate basis is hard to say.

But in response to your more pressing question - would I say that JPM had no fault in the incident? - I'd have to say that JPM was guilty of being impatient and imprudent, and although I wouldn't place the blame for the incident upon him, if I was his team principle I would have seriously taken him to task for not discerning TM's intentions more accurately on the run-up to Turn 9. It's easy to reflect upon from the comfort of our desks, but I find it hard to mistake TM's failure to move aside as anything less than a clear indication that he was not going to allow JPM through before that corner (though I don't know what his intentions would have been after that corner had JPM simply waited and stayed behind through Turn 9). As I have said on numerous occassions, I place the fault squarely on TM for that reason, but I'm equally at a loss to understand how JPM could have been so stupid.

[funkejay 0]

Jay?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By the way Bajo, when were you up in the Q'Appelle Valley? You wouldn't have been that far from me when you were there........

[bajo39 0]

In fairness to you, I agree that it is safe to assume that very few people would say it was entirely JPM's or TM's fault, but where that balance would be struck on an aggregate basis is hard to say.

But in response to your more pressing question - would I say that JPM had no fault in the incident? - I'd have to say that JPM was guilty of being impatient and imprudent, and that although I wouldn't place the blame for the incident upon him, if I was his team principle I would have seriously taken him to task for not discerning TM's intentions more accurately on the run-up to Turn 9. It's easy to reflect upon from the comfort of our desks, but I find it hard to mistake TM's failure to move aside as anything less than a clear indication that he was not going to allow JPM through before that corner (though I don't know what his intentions were after they would have cleared that corner). As I have said on numerous occassions, I place the fault squarely on TM for that reason, but I'm equally at a loss to understand how JPM could have been so stupid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can sign off on this analysis... Stalemate to consensus, give yourself a pat on the back.

I'm at a loss to understand how JPM could have been so stupid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I appreciate the setup but I will decline your invitation in favour of hearing Monty's explanation. Monty, come out from your cave and address the forum on this issue.

[bajo39 0]

By the way Bajo, when were you up in the Q'Appelle Valley? You wouldn't have been that far from me when you were there........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A few years ago I drove out from Toronto. My Aunt and Uncle from Edmonton have a cottage on the lake there, I guess that would be the Q'Appele Lake? The contrast between the lush green of the valley and the millions of acres of flat golden farmland surrounding it is quite stunning.