Whose Fault

[pumpdoc 2]

Monteiro did not alter his line and nor should he have as Montoya appeared set to pass him on the inside - he should have done exactly that and there would not have been a problem. Instead, the Columbian slashed accross his nose and was immediately heavy onto the brakes, locking up.  I don't see how Monteiro was supposed to avoid this?

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words of wisdom

[Wez 0]

TM was also gifted a podium don't forget.  He's just had a reliable car and has been going far too slow to have any severe crashes.

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Yes!

[bajo39 0]

well... i'd like to differ from most ppl here. I dont really think that it was Monterio's fault, now before everyone kills me hear me out.

well i dont think montoya left a lot of space between him and Monterio.. to be honest, he left a few ft space and "started braking",  concidering that monterio had not seen the blue flags or was not expecting montoya's wild move it would have been awfully tough for monterio to judge to beaking distance especially when he was stunned like that.

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I agree with you...

[AutoRacer5 0]

And yet no one on the "Monteiro's fault" side sees that he locked up all four wheels thanks to Montoya's bad judgement...

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

Montoya: All Balls, No Brains.

[bajo39 0]

And yet no one on the "Monteiro's faul" side sees that he locked up all four wheels thanks to Montoya's bad judgement...

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I know... The video clearly shows that the instant Montoya cuts in front, perhaps even slightly before, Tiago lit up all corners in avoidance of the obvious collision to come.

[funkejay 0]

Someone above took me to task, suggesting that I had taken someone's comment about TM being the most successful rookie of all time out of context. I did not take the comment out of context. It was Murray Walker who said it, and it was an unambiguous declaration that TM is the most successful rookie in the history of the sport, as you can see below:

I can see you're being sarcastic here and yes, you are quite right: it was not a very difficult podium to achieve.  Afterall he had the best car and his team-mate suffered reliability problems.  Tiago on the other hand is the most successful rookie in the history of the sport.

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I do not embelish.

Now that that little matter has been cleared up - I should also add that I am no fan of either JPM's or of TM's, and as such, I have no axe to grind in this debate.

As for pumpdoc's position on the matter, it begs a reply:

Ok I've watched it again in slow-mo and first off because they don't show the marshals in close-enuff detail it can't be said that they were waving the blue flags--

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As a fellow marshall pumpdoc, you and I both know that the marshalls are not going to wait until the leader is on the back of the lapped car before waiving a blue flag. They would have been waiving the blue at him for at least the last two, if not three corners. Unfortunately, I can't state that categorically as I haven't seen any footage of the situation developing, as I don't believe it came to the directors attention until after the accident occured.

2nd JPM came over the rise so untill he was on TM's pipes he probably didn't see him--

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C'mon guys, just how far are we willing to go in making excuses for TM? Let's not let the predominant antipathy for JPM on this forum cloud our judgement. The closing speeds in F1 are not so drastic that TM would have been far enough ahead of JPM as he crested the hill himself as to not notice the silver Merc right behind him.

In order to be able to close in and get alongside TM on the entrance to Turn 9, JPM must have been awfully close to TM as they came out of Turn 8 - if for no other reason than the straight between the two corners is very short. This is also suggested by the video, as we know TM had not slowed down before being overtaken, and was charging hard into the corner before JPM got alongside. (Bear in mind there's a Toyota in the back of that Jordan, and their speeds on the straights were not that far off the leaders....)

And even if you are right, the failure of a backmarker to see, notice, and recognize a leader as he is being overtaken is the fault of the backmarker, not the leader.

3rd JPM overtook in the braking zone and TM held his line as all racers are instructed to do--

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Quite right pumpdoc, TM would have been right to hold his line, if he'd been racing JPM at the time. But he wasn't - he was a lapped car being overtaken by a leader - and as such was required to get his sorry a## off the racing line and allow the leader through without impeding him. You know better than to quote rules and protocol out of context, so I have to assume that you simply hadn't given this enough thought before posting your reply.

4th and last JPM "chopped" him, you could allready see brake/tyre smoke from TM's car as JPM cut back inside===result===JPM paid for his impatiance

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Yes, JPM tucked back onto the racing line late, and fairly deep into the corner - but the racing line was rightly his in the first place - and he was forced to make that move deep into the corner only because TM didn't give way as he is supposed to do. If instead JPM had stayed to the inside, he would have taken them both off anyway (and perhaps entirely out of the race) as he was carrying way too much speed to make the corner stick with an entry at that angle.

It is as clear as the nose on your face, even if everything you've said here is true, that TM could not possibly have been watching his mirrors, or if he was, he failed to recognize a leader in them, or if he did, he failed to give way and get off the racing line. Even if he only recognized JPM as he came alongside, at least at that point he should have gotten on the binders, long before JPM got ahead of him, and far far far before JPM came back on line.

Anyone who blames JPM for this incident is simply trotting out their prejudices against the Colombian, and ignoring the most basic rules of motor racing. If you're a back marker, and you hit a leader as you're being lapped, its your fault for putting yourself in a position you should never have been in in the first place.

There can be no other objective interpretation.

[Monty 0]

Well said FJ. This forum is littered with personal prejudice, and which is one of the main reasons that most of the posts lacks objectivity. Most of the Jenson fans dislike JPM and the same goes for Schumacher fans as well.

If Button happened to be in JPM's shoes, the forum would have asked for TM's head. I'm surprised that Pumpdoc would go to the extremes of blaming JPM for this incident, as ( I thought) was one of the few level headed posters in this forum.

[monza gorilla 1]

I always find that a subjective view is a damn sight more entertaining than a purely objective view.

To be objective demands a degree of impartiality which 99% of the members of this forum simply do not possess, and that is what makes this such a lively place.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

oi Monty, i was on your side in this argument, dont slag off button fans, as im one and im on your side! Please dont make pathetic generalisations, as not every button fan is against JPM, i just hate his attitude problem and the fact (though not on this 1 occasion) he makes silly mistakes!

[Stub-o-matic 0]

And yet no one on the "Monteiro's fault" side sees that he locked up all four wheels thanks to Montoya's bad judgement...

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

Montoya: All Balls, No Brains.

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Actually, I did in the "Istanbul Race Thread", Reply #40

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3727&st=40

[Monty 0]

oi Monty, i was on your side in this argument, dont slag off button fans, as im one and im on your side!      Please dont make pathetic generalisations, as not every button fan is against JPM, i just hate his attitude problem and the fact (though not on this 1 occasion) he makes silly mistakes!

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Are you still under the influence of Booze. Go back and read my post, it says "Most of the Jenson fans dislike JPM"

[pumpdoc 2]

I'm surprised that Pumpdoc would go to the extremes of blaming JPM for this incident, as ( I thought) was one of the few level headed posters in this forum.

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That's right I am level headed that's why I don't understand the frying of TM when JPM made a foolish move that was unlikely to gain him any ground and with enough time in hand to still go off and have 1.5 secs. on FA---------I've worn out the replay button on my remote trying for the life of me to justify JPM move and I can't............Just like I can't justify Schumi's move on Webber and I don't like Webber........................

[Monty 0]

That's right I am level headed that's why I don't understand the frying of TM when JPM made a foolish move that was unlikely to gain him any ground and with enough time in hand to still go off and have 1.5 secs. on FA---------I've worn out the replay button on my remote trying for the life of me to justify JPM move and I can't............Just like I can't justify Schumi's move on Webber and I don't like Webber........................

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Fair enough. Forget about the incident and just answer this question.

Does a backmarker has the right to race with a front runner who is about to lap him for the 3rd time?

[monza gorilla 1]

Fair enough. Forget about the incident and just answer this question.

Does a backmarker has the right to race with a front runner who is about to lap him for the 3rd time?

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Seems like you are determined to completely exonerate your man.

[monza gorilla 1]

Oh well, looks like I'll have to wait 'til Monday to see how this one works out, since I still don't have net access from home.

Have a jolly argument.

[Monty 0]

Seems like you are determined to completely exonerate your man.

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No Monza I'm not, most of us here are ready to blame JPM no matter what he does. IF their argument starts with "TM shouldn't have raced with JPM, but JPM is partly to blame", then there is a platform for debate.

However, that is not the case, posters are squarely blaming JPM, as if it was his fault in trying to pass a backmarker.

[Stub-o-matic 0]

Fair enough. Forget about the incident and just answer this question.

Does a backmarker has the right to race with a front runner who is about to lap him for the 3rd time?

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I don't believe that TM was "racing" JPM. If he was, he would have made a move to block him going into the corner, but he did not, he stayed to his right and let JPM f'up.

If TM would have made a move to get to the left and out of the line, everybody would be crying that he blocked JPM.

[bajo39 0]

Anyone who blames JPM for this incident is simply trotting out their prejudices against the Colombian, and ignoring the most basic rules of motor racing...

There can be no other objective interpretation.

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What was that about ad hominen arguments again?

[bajo39 0]

However, that is not the case, posters are squarely blaming JPM, as if it was his fault in trying to pass a backmarker.

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Montoya is not at fault for trying to pass a backmarker, he was entitled to do this. However, he had no entitlement to force a collision with the same backmarker merely because he was displeased with the manner in which that backmarker allowed him through.

I would urge the forum to set aside the issue of whether Monteiro should have slowed down more or moved further out of the way, because it is only deals with the conditions that made the colllision possible and is irrelevant to the question of whether Montoya caused the accident itself. Let us concentrate our attention squarely on Montoya for the moment.

[Fed up 0]

Montoya is not at fault for trying to pass a backmarker, he was entitled to do this. However, he had no entitlement to force a collision with the same backmarker merely because he was displeased with the manner in which that backmarker allowed him through.

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Spot on

[Monty 0]

  Let us concentrate our attention squarely on Montoya for the moment.

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[Monty 0]

Spot on

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Fedup, Bajo is going with the assumption that JPM was displeased with TM's move and cut across the line on purpose and caused the collision. I say that was not the case as he was trying to regain the racing line to negotiate the corner. Given the fact that his tires had flat spotted, there is no way that he would have made the corner taking it from the dirty line.

You can view the incident from different angles, and remember a few laps earlier TM almost ran in to Doornbos's rear, and also he was racing NK for a position. I'm not saying that he did that on purpose, but he was too busy squabbling with his team mate that he forgot that a front runner was ready to pass him for the 3rd time.

[Max Mosley 2]

Seems like you are determined to completely exonerate your man.

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He'll have his work cut out if he wants to do that for the whole season!

[funkejay 0]

That's right I am level headed that's why I don't understand the frying of TM when JPM made a foolish move that was unlikely to gain him any ground and with enough time in hand to still go off and have 1.5 secs. on FA---------I've worn out the replay button on my remote trying for the life of me to justify JPM move and I can't............Just like I can't justify Schumi's move on Webber and I don't like Webber........................

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Well, we agree on that point at least pumpdoc. I never said JPM was smart to try and overtake TM at that corner, particularly as he obviously knew that TM was not moving over for him (JPM had to go off line to lap the Jordan - which meant that TM was either oblivious to his presence, intentionally not letting him through, or intended to let JPM through after they cleared Turn 9). As a result, the prudent thing to do would have been to wait until the long back "straight" stretching from Turn 9 to 11 (through the Turn 10 kink) to overtake TM.

Nevertheless, the failure of JPM to be patient doesn't absolve TM of responsibility for the accident. He created the situation that JPM was reacting to, even if we feel he could/should have used better judgement in choosing a place to overtake.

[Monty 0]

He'll have his work cut out if he wants to do that for the whole season!

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Do you have anything useful to bring to the table?