Italian Gp: Best/worst Of Race

[bajo39 0]

After squabling for 2 days. How come you haven't said a word about Kimi losing his spot to JV at the start. Don't give me the "he was heavy" bulls##t. The mclarens are far far superior to a Sauber, and the speed of the Mclarens will obviously compensate for the extra load he was carrying.

BTW, this is the second time he lost a spot at the start of the race. Last time it was to Fisi, and regained it only after Fisi making a mistake.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A heavy fuel load hurts the most during acceleration from a standstill and Kimi had twice as much fuel onboard as JV. The McLarens are indeed quite a bit faster than the Saubers, but as Steve Matchett said, the difference is not enough to overcome a 46kg weight disadvantage in a straight drag race from a standstill.

Please acknowledge that Montoya was not following the gameplan as is clear from his own comments.

[MontoyaFan-HatesJenson 0]

Why should he? Drivers should be out for number 1 to have the best race they can. He did- and won the race.

[bajo39 0]

Why should he?  Drivers should be out for number 1 to have the best race they can.  He did- and won the race.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you: Montoya was out for himself and not the team. He is not a team player, not in the least.

[MontoyaFan-HatesJenson 0]

Indeed. And I must say I'd sooner he wasn't if he wins races.

[bajo39 0]

Indeed.  And I must say I'd sooner he wasn't if he wins races.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure the team wish he was... Oh and Montoya doesn't win races unless Kimi is impeded by reliability problems, right?

[bajo39 0]

Monty, please acknowledge that Montoya was not following the gameplan as is clear from his own comments.

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[Monty 0]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

bulls##t. Go back to the link that I provided about Mclarens strategy. Whitmarsh says "I think we expected Kimi to clear a few cars at the start but it got a bit tight and compact and it was difficult," Since that didn't happen, they had to move to plan B which is to score maximum points for the team. JPM was up the task.

Now you can sit all day long and bitch about JPM. The fact is he won the race, and was rightfully awarded the "star of the race" by Planetf1.

So long loser

[funkejay 0]

That is your opinion Jay and it is not one that is shared by the majority of the forum.  The forum is of the opinion that the Jordan-Toyota is a faster machine than the Minardi-Cosworth.

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I think you misunderstood me, bajo. I was saying that Cavallino was incorrect in arguing that the old Jordan was slower than the new Minardi. In fact, the Jordan EJ14 appears to have been about 2/10ths to 3/10ths a lap faster on average since the introduction of the PS05 (source, August issue F1 Racing). In any event, when it comes to the relative speed of the cars, what the forum thinks isn't always determinative, as the numbers will usually speak for themselves.

Nearly every qualy lap I have seen from a Minardi driver, particularly Albers, has shown the car to be more than handful... The same is not true of Monteiro's laps in the old Jordan, which look cool, calm and collected, and thus there can be no argument that the Jordan is more difficult to drive fast than the Minardi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is not what I've read from the quotes of drivers who have piloted the Jordan (bearing in mind that this car is relatively unchanged over the last three years). It has an absolutely terrible reputation for having a very unstable and pointy nose, that requires constant correction to get the best out of it (both NH and GF - two drivers who are well known for their car control - had openly complained about this quality).

If it is driven at something less than 10/10ths, perhaps then it is more stable, but if driven flat out, to get the absolute best from it, it can be very difficult to control. I honestly can't say that I've noticed TM's laps to be tidier than anyone else's, they've all looked pretty ragged to me (except in Monza, where the new EJ14B chassis looked considerably more stable).

If anything, this would support the conclusion that TM recognized this quality in the Jordan early in the year, and gradually learned to come to grips with it as he steadily closed the gap to NK throughout the year (and eventually overtook him). As a result, he has his well earned impecible finishing record, which if nothing else has earned him his place in the F1 record books.

If anything, they are both equally difficult to drive on the limit but I would suggest to you that if Karter looks like he is having a tough time with the Jordan chassis, it is because he lacks car control.  This of course is substantiated by the enormous gulf between the finishing records of the two Jordan drivers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the impression I get from reading the F1 pundits is that Karthikeyan's problem is not car control (they seem to agree that he has very quick reflexes and seems to have good pace) but rather that he lacks consistency, judgement, and race craft (and tends to overdrive the car as a result).

Now before you jump on that, bear in mind that overdriving the car is not the same as poor car control, in fact young inexperienced drivers with good instinctive car control often overdrive their cars, as they tend to rely too excessively on their ability to catch it when it tries to get away from them (recall FM's infamous first year with Sauber).

Don't get me wrong, I am not comparing (favorably) NK to FM, as I don't think either NK or TM should be back next year, I'm just saying that the gap between the finishing records of the two Jordan pilots is subject to more than just the explanation you've offered, that TM must therefore have better car control than NK.

[funkejay 0]

and I dont see the point of your continuing reference to the rest of the forum, the majority of the forum etc. for example to me the opinion of FJ is worth far more than many others on the forum ( more than mine too) due to his superior long term knowledge of the sport and his direct involvement in motorsports. If he had come up with a plausible argument to the contrary I would have given it far more consideration than any number of polls on the forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stop it Cavallino, you're gonna make me blush.......... but thanks all the same.

[funkejay 0]

A heavy fuel load hurts the most during acceleration from a standstill and Kimi had twice as much fuel onboard as JV.

[cavallino 2]

Stop it Cavallino, you're gonna make me blush.......... but thanks all the same.

err yeah ok just a response to Bajo's repeated references to 'majority of the forum', I shall poll the forum, this forum is a more competent judge that the planet F1 panel etc. polls are never a accurate representation of anything that is not numerically quantifiable. especially a sample as small as this forum with many new fans and where informed fans are outnumbered by less informed fans.

i think he meant that Doornbos has only raced in that Minardi for 4 races and as comes to grips with it quickly so it is a driveable machine. Nobody is comparing NK and Doornbos bajo, the question is whether the minardi is a driveable machine and according to him it is, atleast that is how i understand it

wasnt going to bother but since you did quoting for bajo's attention. adding the fact that RD has not only come to grips with the car but has been superior to his teammate in this race. which also doesnt say much about albers deserving a drive next year.

[bajo39 0]

I shall poll the forum

this forum is a more competent judge that the planet F1 panel etc.

polls are never a accurate representation of anything that is not numerically quantifiable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like you are the only credible source for answers on questions F1

Since you have failed to deliver on your promised poll, presumably out of fear for further embarrassment with the certain knowledge that in each past poll your opinion has been struck down, I shall poll the question for you.

[cavallino 2]

I was repeating comments made by you earlier, not saying I would poll the forum. my contribution is the third part of what you quote, you have in effect quoted me quoting you if that makes any sense.

since shadow actually explained what I had said, I quoted it for your benefit.

as for your polls go ahead who cares..

[bajo39 0]

I was repeating comments made by you earlier, not saying I would poll the forum. my contribution is the third part of what you quote, you have in effect quoted me quoting you if that makes any sense.

since shadow actually explained what I had said, I quoted it for your benefit.

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[bajo39 0]

err yeah ok    just a response to Bajo's repeated references to 'majority of the forum', I shall poll the forum, this forum is a more competent judge that the planet F1 panel etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The poll is registering 5-nil in favour of the EJ15 thus far, a rather similar ratio as the 'Anyone versus Karthikeyan' polls... Clearly the forum is of the opinion I suggested: the EJ15 is a significantly better machine than the PS05 but its drivers are far worse and this alone is the reason the Jordans are occasionally outpaced.

[mock 0]

BEST:

1. Antonio Pizzonia - On very short notice, the Brazilian stepped up and put in a fantastic effort bringing the car home in 7th (versus 14th for Webber) and scoring two points for Williams.

2. Christian Klien - A good final race from the Austrian before handing over to Liuzzi for the remainder of the season. 

3. Kimi Raikkonen - What an effort!  When Raikkonen stayed out until lap 25 it became clear that his qualifying lap was nothing short of amazing.  Given his lowly starting position, technical difficulties and his being held up by slower cars throughout the race (costing him at least 20 seconds in total), it was extraordinary that he managed to bring the car home in 4th.  With the bad luck he suffered his small spin late int he race was more than forgiveable - surely he would not have done this had he been in the lead.  He set the fastest lap of the race on lap 51 to confirm that he had the winning pace this weekend. No doubt about it, Kimi would have won if he had been able to hold onto the position he earnt in qualifying.

Note: Even though Montoya won the race, he did it rather unimpressive fashion.  Starting on Saturday, he was outqualified by his teammate (by a significant margin) on a much lighter fuel load as I predicted (in the race it became clear the advantage was 5 laps worth or 20% less fuel).

The McLaren strategy, as I predicted, was to get Montoya on pole ahead of Alonso, and for Montoya to use his track position to hold up the Spaniard while Kimi caught up.  Remember, McLaren knew their cars were much faster than the Renault's and would not have been worried about Montoya possibly losing his position to Alonso while attempting to hold him up in the first stint.  Instead of the Columbian following the gameplan, he failed to capture pole despite the huge weight advantage and then shot off into the distance with Alonso in tow.  Brainless! 

WORST:

18. Christian Albers - Poor qualifying performance, poor race perfromance (even though he did better than Karthikeyan). To add insult to injury, the Dutch was penalised for ignoring blue flags at a time when this issue is receiving more coverage than it has since the fallout of the Montoya-Verstaappen incident.

19. Karthikeyan continued his poor form at this GP beginning on Saturday where he was outqualified by a Minardi to the tune of half a second.  As soon as the race began he was involved in a collision confirming the sensibility of the teams decision to place its newest equipment with Montiero. He went on to finish dead last and set a slower fastest lap than the lead Minardi.

20. Mark Webber - he should have been able to beat his inexperienced and underprepared teammate by a wide margin.  Instead, he finished 7 places behind him and set a slower fastest lap.  Pathetic.

codesearch: bestworstitaly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the fourth post I have seen from Bajo - All four posts focus on Jordan and NK - a pattern emerges......

Once again, Get a life !

[cavallino 2]

Though I might partially agree with you, don't troll. you made your point in one thread.

[mock 0]

That is your opinion Jay and it is not one that is shared by the majority of the forum.  The forum is of the opinion that the Jordan-Toyota is a faster machine than the Minardi-Cosworth.

Nearly every qualy lap I have seen from a Minardi driver, particularly Albers, has shown the car to be more than handful... The same is not true of Monteiro's laps in the old Jordan, which look cool, calm and collected, and thus there can be no argument that the Jordan is more difficult to drive fast than the Minardi.  If anything, they are both equally difficult to drive on the limit but I would suggest to you that if Karter looks like he is having a tough time with the Jordan chassis, it is because he lacks car control.  This of course is substantiated by the enormous gulf between the finishing records of the two Jordan drivers.

There are no excuses at the moment!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With respect to Bajo's ill informed and biased statemen "This of course is substantiated by the enormous gulf between the finishing records of the two Jordan drivers."

Please visit the following links

www.paddocktalk.com - Silly Season Edition - F1 (Narain is probably the better of the two drivers)

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/ (Battle of the team mates, head to head - the better driver is traditionally considered the one that qualifies better -NK Leads TM)

http://www.planet-f1.com/features/race_fea...ory_20718.shtml

Jordan

Race: Karthikeyan 1

[monza gorilla 1]

With respect to Bajo's ill informed and biased statemen "This of course is substantiated by the enormous gulf between the finishing records of the two Jordan drivers."

Please visit the following links

www.paddocktalk.com - Silly Season Edition - F1 (Narain is probably the better of the two drivers)

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/ (Battle of the team mates, head to head - the better driver is traditionally considered the one that qualifies better -NK Leads TM)

http://www.planet-f1.com/features/race_fea...ory_20718.shtml

Jordan

Race: Karthikeyan 1

[Shadow 0]

[quote name='cavallino' date='Sep 8 2005, 03:29 PM']don't troll. you made your point in one thread.
[right][post="66892"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

was going to say that.