Prophet Muhammad Controversy

[Max Mosley 2]

Murray, im an avid fan of the apprentice and wanted saira to win, i thought she was great, though a little bossy she was very determined and i agree with her what she said. And obviously i wudnt kill all muslims, infact i dont have it in me to kill anyone.

Ah excellent. A new series is starting tomorrow you know? (Its the only reality TV I watch. Just thought I'd point that out.) I know a lot of muslims and I can tell you she represents the vast majority of British muslims.

And yes this is the point im trying to make. Muslims like to think themselves as the best which is fair enough but the fact so many claim to be muslims yet dont follow their holy book puzzles me. If they are not staying true to their religion then how can they claim the whole world should be muslim etc etc etc if even they themselves dont follow their own beliefs? Dosnt make sense but do u understand what im trying to say. Islam is such a messed up religion is beyond belief.

Oh and scousers do my head in, their accent is just abysmal.

You've just confused me some more I'm afraid Ben!!! Let me offer my opinion, for what its worth. I think the point is that many countries, say in the middle east, have many underlying problems and religious fanatics exploit this and a lack of education, job oportunities and clumsy Western foreign policy to spread their extreme views, whch muslims in the West and many in the middle east too, realise are perversions of Islam.

There are plenty of morons in the world (take totalf1 for instance!) but Islam itself isn't responsible and its important that we don't tar moderate muslims with the same brush because that will push them into the hands of the extremists, which is of course exactly what the extremists are hoping. Its not like me to be PC but this is one area where its good to be so because we're, in effect, in a war of words with the fanatics to show moderate muslims that we're actually "on their side", want to protect their right to worship and that we are not as bad as the fanatics say we are. To win the war we have to demonstrate tolerance and understanding. Thats my view anyway.

Scousers are very funny, it has to be said! I always like how they have to swear more than Eminem.

[monza gorilla 1]

Yes monza, i find it difficult to put my points accross in words on the net. I find it much easier to explain my viuew by talking face to face with someone. I often get mixed up whilst typing so i apologise.

Oh and scousers do my head in, their accent is just abysmal.

That's ok. I have to think before typing, and I can't walk and talk at the same time...

I know exactly what you mean about scousers! "Calm down!" (Hope you remember that and I'm not being an old fart! )

BTW, I'm in Lymington next month for a couple of days. Promise me good weather!

[Jenson_Rules 0]

ha lymington is so pointless lol. However theres a shop on the corner of the high street at the bottom of the hill and although they are ****ing expensive the coats are lush and warm. lol! Good tip

You will mos probably be driving past my house as i live on the main road to lymington (its actually classed as being down north road but its on the corner so!)

If you go past brockenhurst and u go past the college and come up2 the rose and crown pub my house is the little bungalow on the opposite corner and will probably have either an A6 or TT in the front, or both even. Maybe u shud pop round for a cup of tea

[bassaam 0]

Whoa!!

It has just been one day and in that while there have been a ton of posts. Took me a while to read them .

Firstly, let us not debate here, I hope to discuss and alleviate some misconceptions about Islam rather than debate an issue and promote by POV dog headedly.

There was someone who got a bit heated up, saying something like "Islam is a peace loving religion, funniest thing I have heard". Though I understand where he is coming from, he has a skewed understanding of Islam from watching CNN, Fox .. basically western media.

Let me state categorically that terrorism is not Islam. And the debate why there is militancy in Islam is a humungous (did I spell that right?) debate in its own right, one where the west is also majorly involved. For example did you know that Osama Bin Laden was a former agent of the CIA hired to help fight the Russians in Afghanistan? Anyways the point is militancy is Islam is a seperate debate and that this debate is about the Holy Prophet and cartoons.

Firstly someone asked me why making pictures of the Holy Prophet is banned, and he hit the nail on the head when he said it is to suppress idolatory. It is also out of respect and to prevent any mocking of his image (obviously that didnt stop the danish).

Secondly someone pointed out that this (banning the cartoons) is a violation of freedom of press and that an arab paper has printed anti-semitic cartoons, anti-christian cartoons and that you see no violence amongst the jews and christians. In response, firstly freedom of press is a subset of freedom of speech and has already been discussed, secondly I seriously doubt that an arab news-paper would have printed images of Jesus and Moses, simply because printing of their images is also banned in Islam. We dont protest western newspapers prinitng their images because they also believe in them and have a religious association with them.

Lastly, someone talked about how my argument was a tautology. Good point. Please read the link attached in my previous post to learn about the hyprocisy the west follows when it comes to freedom of speech. Also, muslims have never banned anyone from criticizing Islam, just do not make caricatures of the Holy Prophet. Do not potray him unfairly, simply because his teachings are completely unrelated to the militancy we see in Islam today. I agree with your comments entirely when you say that by NOT allowing criticism of religion we compromise freedom of speech, but then muslims are not asking you to stop the criticism, just stop the caricatures. The caricatures serve no purpose BUT to mock Islam.

I said this in my previous post, and I repeat it now, I cannot EXPECT you people to understand how this hurts us. We have loads of respect for the Holy Prophet and you basically demean a foundation we base our lives on. This may sound tribalistic, uncivilized etc.. to you guys, but that is not the point. You should make an effort to respect how we feel, not impose your concepts of freedom on us.

And I am sick of being defensive, let me ask you guys something. Why was it so difficult for the Danish government to apologize for its mistake and say we will not allow printing of the cartoons ever again?? What does the Danish govt have to gain?? to you guys it is just cartoons, which I understand may have been printed with a honest intent, but when it hurts more than a billion people in this world, why is it so DIFFICULT to apologize, or atleast state you will be more careful in the future. Why do you have to defend yourselves on these cartoons?? I mean comon! criticize us, use words ... how does drawing caricatures of the Holy Prophet achieve ANYTHING on your part?? It doesnt! yet you are adamant that you will show them.

In the end, phew, I apologize for not adressing other POV's but you must understand it feels like one against a million. Also I know this post will come up with a ton of responses ... to which I will have loads to say and henceforth. So, I may not be posting as regularly (also if my boss finds out I have been wasting time of totalf1.com he will not be too pleased).

Please try to discuss... I hope I have cleared misconceptions about my religion (though I doubt that). Just to make you understand where I am coming from, I have lived in the US for 4 years and the UK for 3. I understand where you guys are coming from and completely understand why you dont understand my POV. All I ask is that in this world everyone should live in harmony, which involves respect on our part for your concepts (which I concede needs improvement) and respect on your part for our concepts. I just think the cartoon issue is pettiness on the west's part.

[monza gorilla 1]

Thank you Bassaam. It is good to hear from the "other side" in this debate. I do hope you'll stick around and join in the other threads. They are not all about religion, I promise!

[monza gorilla 1]

ha lymington is so pointless lol. However theres a shop on the corner of the high street at the bottom of the hill and although they are ****ing expensive the coats are lush and warm. lol! Good tip

You will mos probably be driving past my house as i live on the main road to lymington (its actually classed as being down north road but its on the corner so!)

If you go past brockenhurst and u go past the college and come up2 the rose and crown pub my house is the little bungalow on the opposite corner and will probably have either an A6 or TT in the front, or both even. Maybe u shud pop round for a cup of tea

I hope Lymington is a bit better than that - it's costing me enough to stay there! (It's a long weekend with the g/f) Just intend to chill out and eat and drink til my eyes fall out. And some other stuff .

I'll watch out for you when i'm passing. Don't want to run you over! (I assume that you must be in heaven with a pub across the road!)

[funkejay 0]

Whoa!!

It has just been one day and in that while there have been a ton of posts. Took me a while to read them .......

And I am sick of being defensive, let me ask you guys something. Why was it so difficult for the Danish government to apologize for its mistake and say we will not allow printing of the cartoons ever again?? What does the Danish govt have to gain?? to you guys it is just cartoons, which I understand may have been printed with a honest intent, but when it hurts more than a billion people in this world, why is it so DIFFICULT to apologize, or atleast state you will be more careful in the future. Why do you have to defend yourselves on these cartoons?? I mean comon! criticize us, use words ... how does drawing caricatures of the Holy Prophet achieve ANYTHING on your part?? It doesnt! yet you are adamant that you will show them.

Please try to discuss... I hope I have cleared misconceptions about my religion (though I doubt that). Just to make you understand where I am coming from, I have lived in the US for 4 years and the UK for 3. I understand where you guys are coming from and completely understand why you dont understand my POV. All I ask is that in this world everyone should live in harmony, which involves respect on our part for your concepts (which I concede needs improvement) and respect on your part for our concepts. I just think the cartoon issue is pettiness on the west's part.

Bassaam, a well reasoned and well written response, to be sure!!!

I don't intend to attack your POV any more than I want to attack your religious beliefs or customs, but there are competing interests at play in this current debate (or crisis, depending on your view of the situation), and that warrants a quick note of explanation.

Of course you are correct that from the perspective of many Muslims, this entire incident has been an affront to the holy prophet and a deep insult to your most cherished and prized beliefs. As a result, it appears as an attack on your culture and very way of life. We understand that this sort of blasphemy is not allowed in your culture and that it is met with outrage by most orthodox Muslims.

In short, we do get it.

However, we also have prized ideals in the West, though they tend to be more secular in nature. Freedom of the press, which you quite correctly pointed out derives from Freedom of Speech and Expression, is one of those ideals. As a result, the solution you offer, for the Danish government to ban such cartoons from being published again, is something that wouldn't be acceptable in our culture. In the West, we have spent hundreds of years freeing ourselves from the yoke of repressive governments to secure these very freedoms, and we're not prepared to relinquish them simply because a few newspapers chose to run some cartoons that were drawn in poor taste (which admittedly had far flung and unforseen consequences).

I think that part of the problem is that in the East, the distinction between defending the sentiment behind the cartoons and defending the right of the paper to publish them is perhaps too fine to be drawn easily by those not accustomed to Western thought and custom. It seems that a defence of the papers' right to publish has been equated with approval of the message contained in the cartoons, which is not generally the case. I believe that almost all Western governments involved have taken pains to go as far as they can, in denouncing the message expressed in the cartoons, while stopping short of taking action to prohibit such forms of free speech. But in our society (and particularly in the current climate) governments are not going to prohibit speech which criticizes the East or Islam in particular.

Of course, all of this takes place against the background of the terror attacks, the Iraq war, and the current "War on Terror" that has been unitlateraly launched by the Americans (and supported by many other Western Nations). All of these incidents have been exploited by the US (and to a lesser extent other Western governments) to build public support for its aggressive and hawkish foreign policy, which makes it now very difficult for these same governments to admit that the West is playing (and has historically played) any role in antagonizing the Middle East (and therefore bears responsibility for the unrest and militancy that exists there).

But just as not all Muslims support the militancy and violent demonstrations that the cartoons have sparked (in fact, I would suspect that most Muslims do not support it), most Westerners do not support the current foreign policies being advanced by the US. As a result, greater dialogue would certainly be the place to start, as it offers the best hope of reducing tensions between the two cultures, and the best hope of a peaceful future.

However, this must be accompanied by an understanding that there are certain things (in both cultures) that are not up for negotiation, and the freedom to express ourselves in the West just so happens to be one.

[bassaam 0]

However, we also have prized ideals in the West, though they tend to be more secular in nature. Freedom of the press, which you quite correctly pointed out derives from Freedom of Speech and Expression, is one of those ideals. As a result, the solution you offer, for the Danish government to ban such cartoons from being published again, is something that wouldn't be acceptable in our culture.

Yes and no. Freedom of speech IS a very prized ideal, but not absolute, even in the west. E.g. If you incorrectly potray someone you can be sued for defamation etc. The link I pasted in my first post shows this where a British court sentenced a Holocaust denier to jail (only a couple of days ago). Hence, Freedom of Speech comes with its caveats.

I think that part of the problem is that in the East, the distinction between defending the sentiment behind the cartoons and defending the right of the paper to publish them is perhaps too fine to be drawn easily by those not accustomed to Western thought and custom. It seems that a defence of the papers' right to publish has been equated with approval of the message contained in the cartoons, which is not generally the case.

Your right, don't you feel the Danish government would have served everybody's interest to target the content of the cartoon??

while stopping short of taking action to prohibit such forms of free speech. But in our society (and particularly in the current climate) governments are not going to prohibit speech which criticizes the East or Islam in particular.

Prohibition of free speech is hardly what I recommended. What I said was, do not make caricatures of the prophet. You can make all your arguments and critiques W/O using this form of representation.

As a result, greater dialogue would certainly be the place to start, as it offers the best hope of reducing tensions between the two cultures, and the best hope of a peaceful future.

Well said

[cavallino 2]

Prohibition of free speech is hardly what I recommended. What I said was, do not make caricatures of the prophet. You can make all your arguments and critiques W/O using this form of representation.

Welcome, good to have someone from Pakistan ( saw the cricket? ), I hope your A1 success is bringing some interest in motorsport there.

Views like yours actually make me think of taking up the cardinal free speech issue like Jay, much like Ash's views make me think of taking up the crusading/missionary atheist principle. While you may have some justification on not wanting the newspapers to print the cartoons, you lose all credibility if you want to curtail people's personal freedom of expression, and morever demand intervention from other governments in affairs that are external to your domain. I do not condone irresponsible journalism, but reactions like yours continue to sway me away from the apologist peace promoting viewpoint.

Also I fail to see any condemnation (note condemnation not apology) for the violence in your posts. I am afraid I demand that of any reasonable person. You have to make a commitment to sanity to be taken seriously.

Why was it so difficult for the Danish government to apologize for its mistake and say we will not allow printing of the cartoons ever again??

The Danish government does not decide what is and is not published in those newspapers. Like it or not, the extreme reactions give further justification to that very publication.

You should make an effort to respect how we feel, not impose your concepts of freedom on us.

No one imposed them on you, the Muslims living in those countries chose to do so. People who do not live in those countries do not have a say. You have the right to ask for moderation, but you cannot demand it.

[AutoRacer5 0]

Prohibition of free speech is hardly what I recommended. What I said was, do not make caricatures of the prophet. You can make all your arguments and critiques W/O using this form of representation.

So you support it, yet you would ban a part of freedom of speech? kind of two-faced.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

well i was having a chat with sum muslims at the hertfordshire uni open day today and i must say they were very pleasent and i actually asked one of their opinion on the extremeists and she said she thinks is disgraceful how they act and it gives them all a bad name, and i agree completely.

BTW hertfordshire uni rocked, i loved it Leicester next weds D

also monza theres an italian down the high street, cant remember the name but its opposite barclays, lovely food

[bassaam 0]

well i was having a chat with sum muslims at the hertfordshire uni open day today and i must say they were very pleasent and i actually asked one of their opinion on the extremeists and she said she thinks is disgraceful how they act and it gives them all a bad name, and i agree completely.

BTW hertfordshire uni rocked, i loved it Leicester next weds D

also monza theres an italian down the high street, cant remember the name but its opposite barclays, lovely food

Man! its been forever since I have had italian. Must remind boss about corporate culture and corporate lunches .

[monza gorilla 1]

Man! its been forever since I have had italian. Must remind boss about corporate culture and corporate lunches .

I can recommend it very highly! The corporate lunch is a necessity these days. Or so I tell myself to justify my waistline.

[funkejay 0]

Yes and no. Freedom of speech IS a very prized ideal, but not absolute, even in the west. E.g. If you incorrectly potray someone you can be sued for defamation etc. The link I pasted in my first post shows this where a British court sentenced a Holocaust denier to jail (only a couple of days ago). Hence, Freedom of Speech comes with its caveats.

You're right, it is not absolute - yet - but I advocate for complete freedom of speech.

Your right, don't you feel the Danish government would have served everybody's interest to target the content of the cartoon??

They did target it by apologizing for the offence, but they will not, and should not, ban such publications in the future.

Prohibition of free speech is hardly what I recommended. What I said was, do not make caricatures of the prophet. You can make all your arguments and critiques W/O using this form of representation.

Actually Bassaam, that is exactly what you're saying - you would simply limit that prohibition according to your own arbitrary standards, which in this case is a caricature of the prophet.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

Whilst in St Albans yesterday me and my mother discoverd a very nice italian restaurant and i must say it was probably THE BEST italian I have had since i was in Rome 2 yrs ago.

[monza gorilla 1]

I can't imagine St Albans and good food being in the same sentence. You do surprise me!

Then again, in Kettering there is a restaurant where the Italian community eat out, and it's terrific. It's a really tatty looking place, so it goes to show that appearances can be deceptive!

[narain fan 0]

[pumpdoc 2]

I can't imagine St Albans and good food being in the same sentence. You do surprise me!

Then again, in Kettering there is a restaurant where the Italian community eat out, and it's terrific. It's a really tatty looking place, so it goes to show that appearances can be deceptive!

I always find that the seediest looking joints have the best food............yum.................

[Jenson_Rules 0]

nothing beats an expensive restaurant imo!

[monza gorilla 1]

I don't mind cheap, as long as the food's good. Frank's food is very good, even though none of the cutlery or plates match, and the toilets are outside.

[pumpdoc 2]

I don't mind cheap, as long as the food's good. Frank's food is very good, even though none of the cutlery or plates match, and the toilets are outside.

My kind of place

( but the serving wenches must be first class )

[Senna 0]

Whilst we

[AutoRacer5 0]

Yes they are.

[pumpdoc 2]

Whilst we

[cavallino 2]

Whilst we