97 replies to this topic

[ecapdeville]

Chanoc Nissany?

[Senna]

Wez, on Aug 8 2005, 12:50 PM, said:

For me, no contest Senna was the greatest!

Im not a fan of Shumacher, and im not denying he is a great driver but here are some reasons I feel Senna is better:

-Senna had competitive team-mates who were allowed to challenge him during his career(Notably Prost), Schumacher has not once had a team-mate who was allowed to do this.
-Shumacher has had a competitive car throughout his career, this was not the case for Senna who raced for Toleman(who were well off the pace) & Lotus(Similar to a BAR type pace in comparisen nowadays).
-People say Shum has the records but he has raced far more races with less compitition.
Senna raced up against Prost, Piquet, Mansell...
Shumacher against Villeneurve, Hill, Hakkinen(Who were no-where near the class of the above). Only in the past season or two have superb drivers like Alonso & Raikkenen come onto the F1 Scene. I recon the best two contenders to his crown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I totally agree.

[kup]

Alain Prost, imho

Senna could be if ...

[thedude79]

Mario Andretti
Senna
M. Schumacher
Jackie Stewart
Sterling Moss

[Alonso]

For me the best ever driver is without dobut Michael Schumacher, I like him for his hunger to win and for his brilliance behind the wheel.

[pumpdoc]

thedude79, on Sep 6 2005, 08:40 AM, said:

Mario Andretti

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like you already     

[jemstride]

I can only take into account drivers who i've seen racing - so I have to say Schumacher. Since he's been in f1, no-one has matched his all-round ability. His only downfall is he's prone to mistakes when under pressure. I rate MS over senna cos of MS's amazing team-leadership and motivation skills, used to very good effect at benetton and ferrari

[Knight The Prof]

Jim Clark followed by Jackie Stewart



I will throw another name into the hat, my all time favourite driver Ronnie Peterson

Even Mario admitted that Ronnie would have won Mario's title but for having to play a supporting role to Mario and Ronnie showed a young Niki Lauda the way not long before Lauda went to Ferrari

[kup]

AP = Alain Prost = Worst ever driver in F-1
AS = Ayrton Senna = Best ever driver in F-1

i have no a single clue how Worst has 4 WDC and 51 wins
and best has 3 WDC and 41 wins
Plus, Best loose more seasons to Worst ...

MS - offtopic, he never raced a season in same team with another WDC.
MS - is most Successfull, oke, no doubt from me !
AS - is best Qualifier, oke, no problem !

AP - is best ever racer (race driver) - just imho.

p.s. life is just © Bruce Almighty.

Edited by kup, 24 September 2005 - 03:22 PM.

[bajo39]

Jenson_Rules!!!, on Aug 2 2005, 11:14 AM, said:

Who do you feel is/was the ebst ever driver in F1 history. For me, Ayrton Senna.

You have asked this question before and I have given you an expanded version of the following answer:

Senna is the greatest but Schumacher is the best.

Edited by bajo39, 28 September 2005 - 02:22 AM.

[Senna]

kup, on Sep 24 2005, 04:17 PM, said:

AP = Alain Prost = Worst ever driver in F-1
AS = Ayrton Senna = Best ever driver in F-1

i have no a single clue how Worst has 4 WDC and 51 wins
and best has 3 WDC and 41 wins
Plus, Best loose more seasons to Worst ...

MS - offtopic, he never raced a season in same team with another WDC.
MS - is most Successfull, oke, no doubt from me !
AS - is best Qualifier, oke, no problem !

AP - is best ever racer (race driver) - just imho.

p.s. life is just © Bruce Almighty.

Can you translate this into English for me kup?

Oh and we have had many topics about this same subject, too many really…

[kup]

Senna, on Sep 28 2005, 11:04 PM, said:

Can you translate this into English for me kup?

Oh and we have had many topics about this same subject, too many really…

Well, it`s just like a kind of "puzzle" for you ?
You know, i like puzzles since i was kid =)

[kup]

Best ever driver (by Wins) (not just F-1, but all racing)

http://www.racing-database.com/
Wery (very-very in short =) good site with Stats !
I now can say my Top-10 drivers ever (not just f1)
# Driver Wins
1 Michael Schumacher 94
2 Jim Clark 71
3 Stirling Moss 68
4 Jack Brabham 68
5 Jacky Ickx 64
6 Juan Manuel Fangio 55
7 Jackie Stewart 52
8 Emerson Fittipaldi 51
9 Alain Prost 51
10 Tazio Nuvolari 45

Aha ! Moss is 3rd ! Great !

[Senna]

kup, on Oct 21 2005, 01:31 PM, said:

Best ever driver (by Wins) (not just F-1, but all racing)

http://www.racing-database.com/
Wery (very-very in short =) good site with Stats !
I now can say my Top-10 drivers ever (not just f1)
# Driver Wins
1 Michael Schumacher 94
2 Jim Clark 71
3 Stirling Moss 68
4 Jack Brabham 68
5 Jacky Ickx 64
6 Juan Manuel Fangio 55
7 Jackie Stewart 52
8 Emerson Fittipaldi 51
9 Alain Prost 51
10 Tazio Nuvolari 45

Aha ! Moss is 3rd ! Great !

I’m only interested in F1 stats.  Furthermore it is easier to win in a fabulous car with a rubbish team-mate than it is with an average car and a good team-mate.  Stats do not take this into account, and cannot.  Furthermore, we must consider the number of races each driver has contested…

[kup]

Senna, on Oct 21 2005, 09:30 PM, said:

I’m only interested in F1 stats.  Furthermore it is easier to win in a fabulous car with a rubbish team-mate than it is with an average car and a good team-mate.  Stats do not take this into account, and cannot.  Furthermore, we must consider the number of races each driver has contested…

Yes, i ranked all theese Top Drivers (by Wins/Gp, Poduims/Gp, Pts/Gp) and summary is:

MS`2005 96
JC 72
JMF 71
MS`2000 70
JB 67
AP 67
SM 66
JS 63
JI 63
TN 60
AA 60
AS 59

Every Driver wants to win as much as possible in every season in every league (series).
if Jacky Ickx was (not) so good in Sport-Cars - anyone in those days can go and beat him easy =)
Any driver tries to make his carrier in a way of most wins, that`s why Bourdais came to CART, and Montoya too after F-3000 went to USA, and only after success moved to F-1 at Williams.
F-1 is most commerce sport now (money$) so advertising has Greatest amount too.
And they are skilled to push in many brains idea of F-1 as Top-Drivers-Sport.
(by this thay can have more money$)
But up till ~75`s F-1 was just another kind of top racing - not more, but not less.

P.S. Jim Clark is the BEST driver of 20th Century ...
Top-3 = JC, JMF, MS.

[MontoyaFan-HatesJenson]

Senna, I doubt there can be any argument.

Close contenders are Clark, Moss, Fangio, Prost and Schumacher.

[Senna]

MontoyaFan-HatesJenson, on Oct 23 2005, 04:34 PM, said:

Senna, I doubt there can be any argument.

Close contenders are Clark, Moss, Fangio, Prost and Schumacher.

You won’t get one from me and you shouldn’t get one from anyone else either!

[kup]

Why NO poll here ?
Who is best ? Driver with most wins or Wins/Gp ? or Pts/Gp ?
I think (since 22-10-2005) in period 1950-2000 best is CLARK

Edited by kup, 23 October 2005 - 08:15 PM.

[Senna]

kup, on Oct 23 2005, 09:12 PM, said:

Why NO poll here ?

We regularly have polls regarding the best driver ever and Senna always wins, followed by Michael Schumacher.  We do not need, nor should we want, any more!

kup, on Oct 23 2005, 09:12 PM, said:

Who is best ? Driver with most wins or Wins/Gp ? or Pts/Gp ?
I think (since 22-10-2005) in period 1950-2000 best is CLARK

This is a nonsensical argument!  Absolute statistics are fundamentally flawed, relative statistics are considerably better but statistics can never account for the quality of machinery, quality of team-mates and quality of opposition etc.  Statistics are interesting, you will often see me quote them, but an appreciation of the context in which they were achieved is vital.  Consider this example:

Poles:

Ayrton:  65
Michael: 64

From these absolute statistics it looks as if there is hardly any difference between the qualifying performances of Senna and M. Schumacher.  Now consider the basic relative statistics.


Because Ayrton only did 162 Grand Prix compared to Michael’s current total of 232 Grand Prix, Ayrton’s relative qualifying statistics are far better than Michael’s.  Ayrton was on pole for 40.1% of his Grand Prix, in contrast Michael has only been on pole for 27.6% of his Grand Prix.  

However although relative statistics take into account the number of Grand Prix contested, they do not consider the quality of machinery, quality of team-mates and quality of opposition etc.




Ayrton:

Machinery: Toleman 1984, Lotus 1985 – 1987, McLaren 1988 – 1993, Williams 1994.

Team-mates: Johnny Cecotto, Stefan Johansson, Elio de Angelis, Johnny Dumfries, Satoru Nakajima, Alain Prost, Gerhard Berger, Michael Andretti, Mika Häkkinen, Damon Hill

Opponents: Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell, Nélson Piquet, Keke Rosberg etc




Michael:

Machinery: Jordan 1991, Benetton 1991 – 1995, Ferrari 1996 -.

Team-mates: Andrea de Cesaris 1991, Nélson Piquet (old) 1991, Martin Brundle 1992, Riccardo Patrese 1993, Jos Verstappen 1994, J J Lehto 1994, Johnny Herbert 1994 – 1995, Eddie Irvine 1996 – 1999, Rubens Barrichello 2000 – 2005.

Opponents: Mika Häkkinen, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve etc




Clearly, Ayrton had far worse machinery, far better team-mates, far better opposition and far fewer races than Michael Schumacher.

Edited by Senna, 23 October 2005 - 09:38 PM.

[MontoyaFan-HatesJenson]

How can people argue Senna was the greatest?

[Wez]

kup, on Oct 21 2005, 02:31 PM, said:

Best ever driver (by Wins) (not just F-1, but all racing)

http://www.racing-database.com/
Wery (very-very in short =) good site with Stats !
I now can say my Top-10 drivers ever (not just f1)
# Driver Wins
1 Michael Schumacher 94
2 Jim Clark 71
3 Stirling Moss 68
4 Jack Brabham 68
5 Jacky Ickx 64
6 Juan Manuel Fangio 55
7 Jackie Stewart 52
8 Emerson Fittipaldi 51
9 Alain Prost 51
10 Tazio Nuvolari 45

Aha ! Moss is 3rd ! Great !

You will probably find Senna raced less races than all those drivers!

Senna is the greatest!!!
By the way @kup... How old are you, have you ever seen senna race?

Edited by Wez, 24 October 2005 - 02:43 PM.

[monza gorilla]

I think Kup is pointing out that a lot of the drivers on his list raced in other series at the same time as they raced in F1. Not sure why, though.

[Senna]

MontoyaFan-HatesJenson, on Oct 24 2005, 01:22 PM, said:

How can people argue Senna was the greatest?

I hope you mean to say: how can people argue that Senna was not the greatest?

Edited by Senna, 24 October 2005 - 06:33 PM.

[MontoyaFan-HatesJenson]

My words were jumbled, I meant how can people ARGUE the fact that Senna is the greatest...he clearly is.

[Senna]

MontoyaFan-HatesJenson, on Oct 24 2005, 08:49 PM, said:

My words were jumbled, I meant how can people ARGUE the fact that Senna is the greatest...he clearly is.

Thanks for clearing that up because you actually originally ‘said’ the exact opposite of what you meant!

[MontoyaFan-HatesJenson]

Yep.  Senna is the greatest, I dunno why everyone's arguing.

[Senna]

MontoyaFan-HatesJenson, on Oct 25 2005, 12:51 PM, said:

Yep.  Senna is the greatest, I dunno why everyone's arguing.

Indeed.

[schumi13]

As far as I know Michael Schumacher and Aryton Senna never properly raced against each other so you can't say who is the superior driver. Everyone says Senna was and I am sure they speak a great deal of sense but they both do things very similar. (Japan 1990, Adelaide 1994, Jerez 1997) for instance and also their incredible ability in wet conditions. (Donnington Park 1993, Spain 1996). And I think Senna may have found the pressure mounting on him in 1994 eventhough he was better than Michael and from what I have read about he was catching Schumacher and spun out in doing so. Michael went on to win that race. At the Pacific Grand Prix of 1994 Senna was again on Pole but Schumacher won due to an accident which I cannot state was Senna's or the other drivers fault.

No one in my opinion can take this status away from Michael Schumacher.

[Senna]

schumi13, on Oct 26 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

As far as I know Michael Schumacher and Aryton Senna never properly raced against each other so you can't say who is the superior driver. Everyone says Senna was and I am sure they speak a great deal of sense but they both do things very similar. (Japan 1990, Adelaide 1994, Jerez 1997)

You are 14 years old.  You couldn’t have seen much of Michael’s career or any of Ayrton’s.


Schumacher cracked under pressure in both the 1994 and 1997 title deciders.  Senna’s decision to take Prost out at Suzuka 1990 was premeditated and was a consequence of 1989, when Prost deliberately took Senna out.  Senna only deliberately rammed his opponent once and he had a reason to, perhaps not a good one but a reason nonetheless.  Michael did it twice and was not wronged before.  Senna did not crack under pressure or panic.  In 1994 Michael hit a wall because he couldn’t cope with the pressure then came back onto the circuit with a fatally wounded machine and deliberately rammed Damon.  In 1997 Michael panicked and he deliberately turned into Villeneuve.  Thus the famous collisions are not at all similar so don’t try and make a solid comparison.

schumi13, on Oct 26 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

for instance and also their incredible ability in wet conditions. (Donnington Park 1993, Spain 1996).

Schumacher is very good in the wet but Senna was better.  Don’t try and equate Senna’s performance at Donington 1993 with anything, it was incomparable, a display of pure genius.  To set the scene: the Williams car was clearly the class of the field and Ayrton Senna had an inferior Ford engine to Michael Schumacher all year as McLaren, after the departure of Honda, was now only a customer team, the works units were of course supplied to Benetton. Benetton got the latest spec engine with pneumatic valves; Senna would have to contend with springs and inferior horsepower.  At Donington Senna passed Karl Wendlinger, Michael Schumacher, Damon Hill and Alain Prost on lap 1 in treacherous wet conditions.  Senna led the pack by 0.698 seconds as he crossed the start finish line having started the lap in 4th place. Furthermore, Senna led 93% of the race with Prost the only other driver to lead a lap (5 in total) and Senna posted the fastest race lap time on lap 57, 1.350 seconds faster than Damon Hill’s lap which was second quickest.  Michael spun out.

schumi13, on Oct 26 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

And I think Senna may have found the pressure mounting on him in 1994 even though he was better than Michael and from what I have read about he was catching Schumacher and spun out in doing so. Michael went on to win that race. At the Pacific Grand Prix of 1994 Senna was again on Pole but Schumacher won due to an accident which I cannot state was Senna's or the other drivers fault.

No one in my opinion can take this status away from Michael Schumacher.

Again, you couldn’t have seen the 1994 season so I’ll explain the situation once more

At the beginning of 1994 the Williams FW16 struggled especially in low-speed corners, was highly sensitive and twitchy, and the c0ckpit was cramped and very uncomfortable. Damon Hill said of the car, “I would describe it as virtually undriveable in the slow corners and in the quick ones it threatens to turf you off the track at any moment. It is unpredictable”. Peter Collins, Patrick Head and Ayrton Senna were also convinced that the Benetton team were using illegal traction control…

Senna was on pole for the Brazilian Grand Prix. Damon Hill was 1.592 seconds slower than his Williams team-mate in qualifying and lined up 4th on the grid. Damon’s fastest race lap was 1.6 seconds slower than Senna’s fastest race lap, despite the fact that the Brazilian spun off on lap 55. Beforehand Senna even managed to lap Damon in the race!

Senna was on pole for the Pacific Grand Prix. Damon Hill was 0.553 seconds slower than his Williams team-mate in qualifying and lined up 3rd on the grid. Senna did not make it past the first corner as Mika Hakkinen and Nicola Larini collectively took him out.

Senna was on pole for the San Marino Grand Prix. Damon Hill was 0.620 seconds slower than his Williams team-mate in qualifying and lined up 4th on the grid.



Damon finished just 1 point behind Michael Schumacher in the World Drivers’ Championship of 1994 and Damon should have won the title but for the infamous collision. Although the Williams car was clearly not the best machine at the beginning of the season, it certainly was at the end of the season. Imagine what Ayrton could have done with it!

PS. Damon Hill only had 7 points after three races in 1994, Senna had 0 points therefore Senna’s points deficit to Schumacher is unimportant.

Gerhard Berger described Senna’s pole positions in 1994 as some of the best of his career.  Damon Hill showed how quick the Williams should have been.  Ayrton showed how quick it could be in the hands of the world’s best ever driver.

Edited by Senna, 26 October 2005 - 02:40 PM.

[monza gorilla]

Excellent post, Senna.