97 replies to this topic

[schumi13]

This is your opinion which I respect much of because he was a great racing driver. Put him against Michael Schumacher in the F2002 or even the F2004 and then at the end of the race we could decide who is the superior. Many people have said they can't be compared but I don't think Senna would be the one with 7 titles just as I don't think Michael also would be the one with 7 world titles if Senna never interfered.

schumi13, on Oct 26 2005, 04:24 PM, said:

'This is your opinion which I respect much of....'

Furthermore onto that many people don't like Michael Schumacher and excuse the team and him or 'cheating' when he is at his most dominant purely based on jealously or true facts. No one is in the same league as Michael and no one will ever match this Ferrari/Schumacher era. He is the greatest.

I may be 14 years old and you must be older obviously and have more knowledge about Formula one than myself but think of it this way. If Senna was driving the F2005 this year and Alonso was now champion would anyone say he was losing his touch? Not good enough for Formula one? Everyone has more respect for Senna than Schumacher I believe and I think it is partly to do with his tragic death but no one can say at this moment in time Schumacher was beaten this season by Alonso or Raikkonen. That isn't anything to do with the 2005 season. Ferrari clearly beat themselves this season.

Edited by schumi13, 26 October 2005 - 03:34 PM.

[Senna]

schumi13, I don’t want to insult you and that is not the intention.  However, consider this: you are arguing with me that Schumacher senior is better than Ayrton Senna yet you have at best seen only half of Michael’s career and you cannot have seen any of Ayrton’s career thus you are quite definitely not in the best place to judge the situation.  Ayrton was a genius, a magician on the track and what he achieved in the equipment he used, against the team-mates and opposition that he had, in such a short time, was nothing short of sensational.  You never saw Senna race.  You can never hope to comprehend his brilliance.  You should accept the views of more knowledgeable fans.  I shall leave you with the words of Michael Schumacher himself, spoken just before the infamous title decider at Adelaide in 1994*:


“I don’t think we would have been in this situation if Ayrton Senna had been in the car. Ayrton would have been driving circles around me”
Michael Schumacher


*You couldn’t have seen it.  That’s the one where Michael can’t cope with the pressure, makes a mistake, hits a concrete wall, comes back onto the circuit and rams Damon Hill.

Edited by Senna, 26 October 2005 - 06:31 PM.

[KimizChamp]

Jim Clark and Ayrton Senna. That's a period. No Schumacher.

[demonhorse]

If Senna had lived, I have no doubt in my mind that as much as I LOVE Ferrari and Michael Schumacher, Schumacher would not be a 7 time champion. I also believe he and Senna would have fought some good battles, both in races and in championships, but I cannot predict the score in those terms, or who would be the winner of more races and championships (although for some reason a score of 5-5 or similar comes to mind, in which case both drivers would be equalling Fangio's record).
Also Schumacher would probably not have all the records he has broken in recent years.

[Senna]

demonhorse, on Nov 5 2005, 07:11 PM, said:

If Senna had lived, I have no doubt in my mind that as much as I LOVE Ferrari and Michael Schumacher, Schumacher would not be a 7 time champion. I also believe he and Senna would have fought some good battles, both in races and in championships, but I cannot predict the score in those terms, or who would be the winner of more races and championships (although for some reason a score of 5-5 or similar comes to mind, in which case both drivers would be equalling Fangio's record).
Also Schumacher would probably not have all the records he has broken in recent years.

I don’t want to waste time speculating what would/could have happened had Senna not died.  However, just consider his statistics as they stand and then imagine what he would have achieved in the rest of his career.  He would probably have retired in 1999/2000.  He might well have remained at Williams in 1996 and 1997 and then I’m sure that he would have joined Ferrari, as Julian Jakobi confirms.  Senna admired Ferrari and its history and expressed a wish to drive for the team before he retired.

[kup]

KimizChamp, on Nov 5 2005, 06:50 PM, said:

Jim Clark and Ayrton Senna. That's a period. No Schumacher.

Period ? "ever" ? hmm ... dunno ...

JC and AS both had fatal incidents, and who cnows what could be in 1999 GBR if ?
MS could be just 2-time WDC ... and JC with AS could be 5-time WDC if alive ...

By FACT in their presence JC and AS both were very strong, but it was another F-1, a different srory-ies.
MS vas as good as no one ever in 2002 and 2004 ...

[kup]

To "Senna" (btw can you think of change a nick ? =)

AS could be WDC in 94-95-96-97 (Williams) and retire from F-1.
And also return to McL for 98-99 WDC Titles.
In those siz seasons (94-97-99) AS easily could be +2(+3) times WDC.

Anyway in 1997 AS is 37 yo (99-39), and AP was 38 in 93.
I just have NO idea how AS could be WDC in Ferrari, he could race in Fer car, oke, but with no chance to be WDC.

[Senna]

kup, on Nov 5 2005, 08:30 PM, said:

To "Senna" (btw can you think of change a nick ? =)

AS could be WDC in 94-95-96-97 (Williams) and retire from F-1.
And also return to McL for 98-99 WDC Titles.
In those siz seasons (94-97-99) AS easily could be +2(+3) times WDC.

Anyway in 1997 AS is 37 yo (99-39), and AP was 38 in 93.
I just have NO idea how AS could be WDC in Ferrari, he could race in Fer car, oke, but with no chance to be WDC.

He would have found a way.  The car was quick in ‘98 and ‘99 and I think Senna, had he not died, would have been driving a Ferrari in those years after leaving the dominant Williams camp for a new challenge.  If Senna could get 5 wins in the McLaren MP4/8 against the dominance of the gizmo clad Williams FW15C, I’m sure he would have won the title in the  F300 or F399.

[nojvnof1]

I agree.

[schumi13]

nojvnof1, on Nov 6 2005, 07:54 AM, said:

I agree.

I don't think you just 'find a way' to win a world champion or even races in not such a good car. He was the master at his game but I don't even think Senna had the magic on some of the other drivers who weren't equally but somewhat near the class of himself.

[Senna]

schumi13, on Nov 6 2005, 09:23 AM, said:

I don't think you just 'find a way' to win a world champion or even races in not such a good car. He was the master at his game but I don't even think Senna had the magic on some of the other drivers who weren't equally but somewhat near the class of himself.

You never saw Senna race!  In 1993, his McLaren MP4/8 was a very poor car – it had an underdeveloped chassis and an underpowered Ford engine.  The Williams FW15C was the class of the field, utterly dominant.  Ayrton Senna had an inferior Ford engine to Michael Schumacher all year as McLaren, after the departure of Honda, was now only a customer team, the works units were of course supplied to Benetton. Benetton got the latest spec engine with pneumatic valves; Senna would have to contend with springs and inferior horsepower.  Some people said that Senna was using a year old Ford engine.  Even so, he still won 5 Grand Prix and finished second in the championship:

1. Alain Prost – Williams – 99 points
2. Ayrton Senna – McLaren – 73 points
3. Damon Hill – Williams – 69 points
4. Michael Schumacher – Benetton – 52 points
5. Riccardo Patrese – Benetton – 20 points

When it rained, Senna won.

Edited by Senna, 06 November 2005 - 04:28 PM.

[demonhorse]

Senna, on Nov 5 2005, 07:23 PM, said:

He might well have remained at Williams in 1996 and 1997 and then I’m sure that he would have joined Ferrari, as Julian Jakobi confirms.  Senna admired Ferrari and its history and expressed a wish to drive for the team before he retired.

Hmm that would have been a total dream team if he had partnered Schumacher in Ferrari.

[Senna]

demonhorse, on Nov 6 2005, 07:21 PM, said:

Hmm that would have been a total dream team if he had partnered Schumacher in Ferrari.

Senna would have been happy with such an arrangement but Schumacher certainly would not have been.  Ayrton was happy to partner Prost at McLaren and battle against him in equal machinery with equal status.  Schumacher’s best ever team-mate is Rubens Barrichello, Michael’s contractual No. 2, in a team which completely revolves around the German ace.

[schumi13]

Senna, on Nov 6 2005, 07:28 PM, said:

Senna would have been happy with such an arrangement but Schumacher certainly would not have been.  Ayrton was happy to partner Prost at McLaren and battle against him in equal machinery with equal status.  Schumacher’s best ever team-mate is Rubens Barrichello, Michael’s contractual No. 2, in a team which completely revolves around the German ace.

We know this.... I think this has been said around what over 5 times now. I don't actually know if some think others are just empty shells or something.

[kup]

"Senna would have been happy with such an arrangement but Schumacher certainly would not have been. Ayrton was happy to partner Prost at McLaren and battle against him in equal machinery with equal status."

Prost said: it`s not Senna or Dennis to blame, that i desided to leave McLaren to Ferrari in 89-90 ... it is ... ??? =)
So status was equal in McLaren, but equipmen was a bit not ...
... i in no way blame Senna, we know who came to McL with him =)

Edited by kup, 06 November 2005 - 10:40 PM.

[Shadow]

Senna, on Nov 7 2005, 12:58 AM, said:

Senna would have been happy with such an arrangement but Schumacher certainly would not have been.  Ayrton was happy to partner Prost at McLaren and battle against him in equal machinery with equal status.  Schumacher’s best ever team-mate is Rubens Barrichello, Michael’s contractual No. 2, in a team which completely revolves around the German ace.

well i think if AS had been alive in 1996 Ferrari would have been delighted to sign him irrespective of whether MS would have been happy or not. I am sure they would have loved to have the best two on the grid with them

[amjay]

well there seems to be a whole load of fuss to anyone who suggests a name other than Senna      ..

just a lil support for MS, (the guy has all the important F1 records and a matter of time b4 the polls rec is his).... and i wouldn agree tht opposition in his era were useless... mika was great, so are KR, JV, jpm, FA ..... and if u think about it if say rubens was the lead driver in ferarri, honestly does anyone feel he would have pulled of 5 WDC titles....well at least i dont think he is capable of tht anyway.... in many ways u can see tht MS was a good and well sad to say a great driver .... his name will be remembered for a long long time (seriouly i know babies tht cant pronounce their fathers name but can say schumacher)....

if u look at how races and titles were won...in this instance i think senna will stand out...(i guess there has been enough points shown in previous posts to support this).... my pick will still be senna for reasons ... well u have to see him race to know it..... the guy has been gone 11 years but ppl still very much remember his name... now thts a name tht has trully stood the test of time...

ps... for the record i hate MS  ....

Edited by amjay, 07 November 2005 - 10:30 AM.

[Wez]

amjay, on Nov 7 2005, 12:26 PM, said:

well there seems to be a whole load of fuss to anyone who suggests a name other than Senna      ..

just a lil support for MS, (the guy has all the important F1 records and a matter of time b4 the polls rec is his)....

Probably because most people here have seen both Senna & Schumacher race!
Senna was in a class of his own mate!!!

[Senna]

Wez, on Nov 7 2005, 12:32 PM, said:

Probably because most people here have seen both Senna & Schumacher race!

Senna was in a class of his own mate!!!

Indeed.  Senna was rightly named the magician.  Drives like Monaco 84, Portugal 85, Donington 93 etc were sensational.  Ayrton was mesmerizing and his career was littered with wizardry.  Schumacher, good as he is (or should that be was?) pails in comparison.

Edited by Senna, 07 November 2005 - 08:19 PM.

[nojvnof1]

Quote

I don't think you just 'find a way' to win a world champion or even races in not such a good car. He was the master at his game but I don't even think Senna had the magic on some of the other drivers who weren't equally but somewhat near the class of himself.

this is Ayrton Senna we are talking about, he WOULD have found a way, easily. Senna took on Prost in the same car and beat him, and to give credit to Alain, actually recommended to McLaren to hire Ayrton.

[schumi13]

nojvnof1, on Nov 8 2005, 08:20 AM, said:

this is Ayrton Senna we are talking about, he WOULD have found a way, easily. Senna took on Prost in the same car and beat him, and to give credit to Alain, actually recommended to McLaren to hire Ayrton.

Sadly and I say this very sarcastically for the outspoken people on this forum he will be forgotton about and furthermore Michael Schumacher will be remembered more than the great 'I never saw race'.

[monza gorilla]

Not by people who are true afficionados.

[realick2002]

i've only been watching since 99 so my top 5 are
Micheal schumacher 10  
kimi raikkonen  10
Mikahakkinen 9
David coulthard
Fernando
Montoya
villeneuve     F it, u cant really tell but the 1st three, im absolutely sure of.
Put kimi in a reliable car, u'll really see that hes amazing. schumacher only betters him on records. but personally i think kimi is brilliant.
Monty is good as well, just takes him time to get the rite balance. what of frentzen. I still feel that button has to prove himself but so far so good. taking pole position on an empty tank is absolutely rubbish

[Senna]

monza gorilla, on Nov 9 2005, 02:01 PM, said:

Not by people who are true afficionados.

Indeed.  I’ll never forget Senna.

Schumi13, you are being very foolish in proclaiming Michael as the best ever when you have at best seen only 6 years of his career and none of the other all-time greats.  You have clearly not got anywhere near enough information to decide fairly.

[schumi13]

Senna, on Nov 9 2005, 05:57 PM, said:

Indeed.  I’ll never forget Senna.

Schumi13, you are being very foolish in proclaiming Michael as the best ever when you have at best seen only 6 years of his career and none of the other all-time greats.  You have clearly not got anywhere near enough information to decide fairly.

Thanks but when you personally want to insult me again and tell me you know more then me and I haven't watched as much F1 as you do it by a PM. As far as I am concerned I wasn't actually talking to you directly but was talking about you and a few others. What I say to this is 'When I want to hear responses I want and your opinion, I will answer for you'.

[jimmyk]

The 'Best Driver Ever' is a hard call. The general opinion from what ive read in this forum is it is in between Schumacher and Senna. I have witnessed both of these guys race(as most of you have). Call me crazy, but as i recall the press generally "loved to hate" Ayrton during his McLaren years, with the same intensity as they do now Micheal. What i loved about both these guys is their focus and at the end of the day, if it came down to a win, they would do what was necessary to come out on top. Both were very involved in set-up, great qualifiers, decisive through lapped traffic, gifted at reading race situations to benefit themselves, awesome in the rain......but at the end of the day......on the last lap..6 foot too far back...they were not beyond a passionate desperation to do whatever it takes to get to that apex before their rival.

Kinda like every overtaking manouevre Montoya makes on a backmarker, but the difference is only when the stakes were high!!! I suppose its comforting to know that Senna and Schu, even though supremely talented,experienced and highly intelligent, still relied on that skill they developed in Karting 20 years ago called......Big Balls!!!....to put them on the top step of that podium so many times.

[Senna]

jimmyk, on Nov 10 2005, 04:00 AM, said:

The 'Best Driver Ever' is a hard call. The general opinion from what ive read in this forum is it is in between Schumacher and Senna. I have witnessed both of these guys race(as most of you have). Call me crazy, but as i recall the press generally "loved to hate" Ayrton during his McLaren years, with the same intensity as they do now Micheal. What i loved about both these guys is their focus and at the end of the day, if it came down to a win, they would do what was necessary to come out on top. Both were very involved in set-up, great qualifiers, decisive through lapped traffic, gifted at reading race situations to benefit themselves, awesome in the rain......but at the end of the day......on the last lap..6 foot too far back...they were not beyond a passionate desperation to do whatever it takes to get to that apex before their rival.

Kinda like every overtaking manouevre Montoya makes on a backmarker, but the difference is only when the stakes were high!!! I suppose its comforting to know that Senna and Schu, even though supremely talented,experienced and highly intelligent, still relied on that skill they developed in Karting 20 years ago called......Big Balls!!!....to put them on the top step of that podium so many times.

Correction: some not most.  Some haven’t even seen Michael’s entire career, not even most of it…

[jimmyk]

Senna, on Nov 11 2005, 04:58 AM, said:

Correction: some not most.  Some haven’t even seen Michael’s entire career, not even most of it…

        You are probably right, Senna. One thing I should say, with no disrespect to Ayrton whatsoever, I think theres a bit of "Kurt Cobain Syndrome" within Ayrtons fan base. By that i mean the same people who ranted about him being a dangerous driver with a temper in 92/93, soon as his tragic accident occurred, they
line up for a flag and a t-shirt. If Schu suffered the same fate next gp, i think alot of the Schu-haters would be sitting on each others shoulders to get a space on the bandwagon....Senna was as an idol for me because of his raw talent mixed with passion for victory, with a twist of "mad-man"....Its very sad many people, after his untimely death, back-flipped....I suppose its because i copped it for being a Senna fan, and the same guys who dealt it wanted to buy my mounted "Toleman at Monaco" poster 6 months later!!!  

[schumi13]

jimmyk, on Nov 11 2005, 01:14 AM, said:

You are probably right, Senna. One thing I should say, with no disrespect to Ayrton whatsoever, I think theres a bit of "Kurt Cobain Syndrome" within Ayrtons fan base. By that i mean the same people who ranted about him being a dangerous driver with a temper in 92/93, soon as his tragic accident occurred, they
line up for a flag and a t-shirt. If Schu suffered the same fate next gp, i think alot of the Schu-haters would be sitting on each others shoulders to get a space on the bandwagon....Senna was as an idol for me because of his raw talent mixed with passion for victory, with a twist of "mad-man"....Its very sad many people, after his untimely death, back-flipped....I suppose its because i copped it for being a Senna fan, and the same guys who dealt it wanted to buy my mounted "Toleman at Monaco" poster 6 months later!!!  

I certainly respect this point of view and yourself. Welcome aboard.

Senna, on Nov 10 2005, 06:58 PM, said:

Correction: some not most.  Some haven't even seen Michael's entire career, not even most of it.

If here you are referring to me here I don't really think watching either Michael Schumacher's career or Ayrton's is relevant. Everything is based on facts and relyed upon by statistics. Now whether or not Senna was a magician, he currently and for obvious reasons is not statistically the best racing driver so that status goes to Michael Schumacher. I clearly know why everyone on here disagrees with me because they 'saw him race' but that is regardless. And talking about Jerez '97 and Adelaide '94 well let's go back to Suzuka '89 and '90. I wonder what happened there.... well I wasn't even alive then Senna care to enlighten me?

Edited by schumi13, 11 November 2005 - 07:19 PM.

[Senna]

schumi13, on Nov 11 2005, 07:18 PM, said:

If here you are referring to me here I don't really think watching either Michael Schumacher's career or Ayrton's is relevant.

schumi13, on Nov 11 2005, 07:18 PM, said:

Everything is based on facts and relyed upon by statistics. Now whether or not Senna was a magician, he currently and for obvious reasons is not statistically the best racing driver so that status goes to Michael Schumacher.

In absolute statistical terms Michael is the most successful.  In relative terms (which are far more accurate) he’s not even close.  You have made this mistake several times…

schumi13, on Nov 11 2005, 07:18 PM, said:

I clearly know why everyone on here disagrees with me because they 'saw him race' but that is regardless. And talking about Jerez '97 and Adelaide '94 well let's go back to Suzuka '89 and '90. I wonder what happened there.... well I wasn't even alive then Senna care to enlighten me?

I’d be happy to enlighten you schumi13:

Schumacher cracked under pressure in both the 1994 and 1997 title deciders. Senna’s decision to take Prost out at Suzuka 1990 was premeditated and was a consequence of 1989, when Prost deliberately took Senna out. Senna only deliberately rammed his opponent once and he had a reason to, perhaps not a good one but a reason nonetheless. Michael did it twice and was not wronged before. Senna did not crack under pressure or panic. In 1994 Michael hit a wall because he couldn’t cope with the pressure then came back onto the circuit with a fatally wounded machine and deliberately rammed Damon. In 1997 Michael panicked and he deliberately turned into Villeneuve. Thus the famous collisions are not at all similar so don’t try and make a solid comparison.

Edited by Senna, 11 November 2005 - 08:08 PM.