169 replies to this topic

[kup]

(= And what is PollDate ?
http://www.thef1.com...tos/index.shtml
(= Basically i agree with most ranks.
01. Ayrton Senna
02. Juan Manuel Fangio
03. Jim Clark
04. Alain Prost
05. Michael Schumacher
=But we have also some huge "bugs" !
20. Damon Hill
29. Jacques Villeneuve
34. Gerhard Berger
41. Jean Alesi
50. Riccardo Patrese
57. David Coulthard
58. Mika Hakkinen (!!!)
And Hakki has 2-times more wins than Ville or Berger !
And Alesi has just 1 win (and 10 2nd finishes).
Patrese has 6 wins - 3 times less than Hakki !
# 57 - any comments ? no.
Coult has all his career equal with Barrichello.
And there is NO RB in Top-100 at all !
89. Eddie Irvine - while EI is in ...

TOTALs: ranks of D.Hill, Coult, Irvine - is obviously over the real facts !
Maybe it were too many F-1 fans from GBR in the Poll ?

[Schumikonen]

Ctrl300, on May 7 2006, 03:22 AM, said:

Prost was greater than Senna.
Win percentage:
Prost 25.63
Senna 25.47
MS 36.59

Points per race:
P 3.99
S 3.81
MS 5.53

WDC:
P 4 (and 4 times runner up)
S 3
MS 7 (almost 8)

One point of interest you may like to know is that if the points scoring system as it is today was like this since 1950 Alain would have not only won the most races but also the most Championships with 6. He would have won in 1984 (the points would be even between him and Niki but Alain won more races) and he would have also won in 1988 (due to the fact that the stupid "best 11 finishes" rule has been abolished) His 105 points in 1988 would also be 112 - a record if done under today's points system. Alain Prost World Champion 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1993 - Champion of Champions.

Senna only won a WDC when he had the best car, the McLaren. Alain won in 86 although the best car was the Williams.
And for those whom start yelling about fastest laps:
P 41
S 19
MS 75

Although Senna (65) had more poles but Alain (33) often opted for a different race set up which made him go from mid field and win.
Prost had 86 front rows. He also had the record for races led in a season 15 until jaws eclipsed it in 2004.

BTW this was compiled by a info from a page by a Prost fanatic and might present itself as slightly biased, but I think he has some valid points with regards to the 6 WDC's.

I agree with everything said in this post because it is the truth and only the truth.  

Sorry, but I had to edit your post, just to open some eyes around here

Prost was simple better than Senna. And you forgot to say that his was  the WDC in his last season so he could have better numbers than these.

Edited by Schumikonen, 16 September 2006 - 09:35 AM.

[Player(1)]

Crap I voted Senna by accident...can an admin wipe it so i can vote again or everyone imagine Senna has one less and Prost has one more...

[Ctrl300]

Player(1), on Sep 17 2006, 11:09 PM, said:

Crap I voted Senna by accident...can an admin wipe it so i can vote again or everyone imagine Senna has one less and Prost has one more...

You are not the first mate
Currently it should read 11 v 17, still not good enough, but we are slowly getting there. Just imagine a Shu v Senna or Prost, what a nightmare...

[Player(1)]

Ctrl300, on Sep 17 2006, 02:24 PM, said:

You are not the first mate
Currently it should read 11 v 17, still not good enough, but we are slowly getting there. Just imagine a Shu v Senna or Prost, what a nightmare...

I never liked majority's, they have an aweful habit of getting things wrong

Wish Senna was still alive and on this forum...we'd have one more vote for Prost then

Edited by Player(1), 17 September 2006 - 01:39 PM.

[Wez]

Player(1), on Sep 17 2006, 03:09 PM, said:

Crap I voted Senna by accident...can an admin wipe it so i can vote again or everyone imagine Senna has one less and Prost has one more...

There is no need to be ashamed mate... Most agree with your hearty vote!

[Ctrl300]

Player(1), on Sep 17 2006, 11:31 PM, said:

I never liked majority's, they have an aweful habit of getting things wrong

Wish Senna was still alive and on this forum...we'd have one more vote for Prost then

    

[Argento Reloaded]

funkejay, on May 8 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

I voted Prost, and I'll tell you why. Senna was unbelievably talented, and probably gifted with more raw skill than any other driver to have ever piloted a single seater race car of any configuration. However, I think Prost was the better overall package, and was a far greater thinking man's driver.

Although each was a multiple world champion, and therefore shared many of the same skills and talents necessary to achieve that goal, I think that Senna and Prost were, in many ways, diametric opposites, which probably contributed to their famous and long standing fued. For example, Senna was much more passionate, and Prost was much more rational. While Senna represented consumate talent, Prost embodied analytic perfection. Whereas Senna relied upon his otherwordly car control, Prost relied upon his race craft.

As a result, it is hard to compare the two, but in the end, I think Prost's more holistic approach to his craft gives him somewhat of an edge.

Perfet Post. I couldn´t agree most! Just add: Prost was as great as Senna because they race against each other and viceversa. Can you imagine how many titles could won Prost if Senna was 5 or 10 years younger? And viceversa. In this case how many could won MS?
Carlos Reutemann (WDC runner up and former Braham, Ferrari, Lotus and Williams) was so enlighted by Senna´s talents that told: "The only guy I´ve seen driving this way was Jochen Rindt" (they raced against in F2) And he was as tiddy as Prost and as Bernie said the greatest tester of his era (no telemetry remember?) not to mention he was teammate of Gilles, Mario Andretti, Niki Lauda, Alan Jones, Carlos Pace, etc.

[kup]

(= Thanx All ! For good posts #122-etc !
I agree with almost every word.
Just can add: most fans know and remember PP: AP/AS = 33/65.
And it seems like AS was 2 times quicker (= than AP, hehe.
But if all fans can find not PP but FrontRows: AP/AS = 86/87.
I know, they have GP done as: AP/AS ~ 200/160 (like 5/4).
But above stats also says us, as AP said:
"AS was always too risky and too fast in Quals, and as i always said:
"let`s see the race finish and who is quicker there"."
FrontRow was often just enough for AP - to make a good race.
But Senna was happy only with PP, as he has just 22 2nd in Quals.

Edited by kup, 21 September 2006 - 05:25 AM.

[cavallino]

chaide, on Jun 16 2006, 08:56 AM, said:

i desagree of course, schumacher problably is better than prost...

Of course he is, that is not even worthy of debate.

[kup]

cavallino, on Sep 21 2006, 11:54 AM, said:

Of course he is, that is not even worthy of debate.

They were competing in different eras. In their common GPs - 1993 - MS lost \ AP won.
Points: 52 \ 99 and Wins 1 \ 7. Wanna debate ? Ok, may recall end of `91 too.

(= Huh? Never heard of any of them. (kidding) MS uber allez !

Edited by kup, 21 September 2006 - 12:16 PM.

[chaide]

i thing 8 votes to prost are all from the same guy

[kup]

chaide, on Oct 16 2006, 06:56 PM, said:

i thing 8 votes to prost are all from the same guy

(= Any Arguements ? And maybe all votes for Senna are all from the sames ?

In today`s scoring system (Top-8-2003+) AP could have 7-WDC:
83-84-85-86, 88-89, 93.
And Senna ? Just 2: 90-91 ! Oke, if he be alive ... maybe +94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99 ? 8-WDC ?
(= And Schum ... just 5-WDC: 00-04.

[goldjaazz]

For me the decisions is split.

the way i see it is........

Emotional decision; Senna

Conscious decison : Prost

that kind of fits with the way people think how they drive!

Senna: raw emotion and talent

Prost : so calculated and presise

[Shane2]

Prost had 2 of his titles before Senna got into the c#ckpit. From that standpoint Senna won, because the count was 3:2 whilst he was driving. I feel he would have won more as well if he hadn't have died

Edited by Shane2, 08 November 2006 - 10:28 PM.

[Quiet One]

After reading the whole thread I just realized this is some old topic! Ouch!
Well, anyways as I just voted I will back up my decision:
It is very, very, VERY hard to vote for any one of these drivers (If you would have thrown in Gilles & Fangio, it wouldn't be any easier either) Numbers mean nothing as they can be played and turned around to show than even Ide was better than Schumacher ("less number of cheats"   ) At certain levels, numbers are just worthless, you are watching pure genius in the track, so shut up and enjoy. What painting is better, Da Vinci's "La Gioconda" or Van Gogh's "Field with crows"? Who cares! There is only one thing that matters: which one do you prefer on a purely subjective basis. I watched Prost and Senna race (and I doubt we will ever seen such a clash of talents again)
Facts:
1) Prost was more of a mental driver and Senna was more of a driver by instinct. But those are just gross drawings of each personality. Prost was also a very passionate men in the heat of the battle, and Senna's presumed ignorance of technical questions was a serious understatement.
2) Formula 1 is a very machine dependable sport. It is more so now, but it was already evident at the time. None of them would have won if they drove a 1979 Merzario, or a Copersucar, don't you think?   So, how do we know if they were so great, machine power apart? Just because we watched them race. I just recalled at some other topic Donnington'93. You won't see a race like that nowadays. Yes, rules have changed. Yes, cars are different. But to deny the genius displayed on the track both from Prost and Senna (and, guess who? Barrichello!) needs some serious biasing effort.
Having said all that, I pick Senna. Why? Because he was better than Prost? Not at all! I am a HUGE fan of Prost! I think Prost was the best driver on Earth. But Senna was otherworldly... I just find Senna more fun to watch, made me shout like a maniac with his relentless, suicidal moves which only he could succesfuly get away with. The closest to that I have saw in recent times was Alonso over Schumacher on 130R last year.
(remember? http://www.youtube.c...?v=5LuKW7DrtbM) Yet Prost and Senna pulled stunts like that every race!
Anyways, no matter which one gets ellected as the best one, I will be happy. Those guys gave the greatest F1 show I have seen so far and no stupid poll will make me change my opinion about them or about my totally subjective preference for Senna's style over Prost's.
Pheww...that's all.

[goldjaazz]

I dont think Stats and Figs are entirely the best way to measure some one's ability.

Stats and Figs only measure an outcome.

to measure some ones ability, first we have to come up with a correct way of measuring.

the stat's and figs, dont account for crap teams, nor other people running into you or mechanical failures where the driver sometimes is not accountable for.
A flexable scale / system is required to measure as a rough guide. It's too complicated.

it's worst than doing your taxes.

i am afraid this debate leaves no other decision than a "What if" scenario.

[Shane2]

Quiet One, on Nov 9 2006, 01:00 AM, said:

1) Prost was more of a mental driver and Senna was more of a driver by instinct. But those are just gross drawings of each personality. Prost was also a very passionate men in the heat of the battle, and Senna's presumed ignorance of technical questions was a serious understatement.
2) Formula 1 is a very machine dependable sport. It is more so now, but it was already evident at the time. None of them would have won if they drove a 1979 Merzario, or a Copersucar, don't you think?   So, how do we know if they were so great, machine power apart? Just because we watched them race. I just recalled at some other topic Donnington'93. You won't see a race like that nowadays. Yes, rules have changed. Yes, cars are different. But to deny the genius displayed on the track both from Prost and Senna (and, guess who? Barrichello!) needs some serious biasing effort.
Having said all that, I pick Senna. Why? Because he was better than Prost? Not at all! I am a HUGE fan of Prost! I think Prost was the best driver on Earth. But Senna was otherworldly... I just find Senna more fun to watch, made me shout like a maniac with his relentless, suicidal moves which only he could succesfuly get away with. The closest to that I have saw in recent times was Alonso over Schumacher on 130R last year.
(remember? http://www.youtube.c...?v=5LuKW7DrtbM) Yet Prost and Senna pulled stunts like that every race!
Anyways, no matter which one gets ellected as the best one, I will be happy. Those guys gave the greatest F1 show I have seen so far and no stupid poll will make me change my opinion about them or about my totally subjective preference for Senna's style over Prost's.
Pheww...that's all.

The thing people don't always come across about senna is that he had this skill to pull the absolute out of his machinery and extract every last ounce of speed out of it, and he had the ability to achieve very good results in technically inferior machinery. This is what i feel set him apart from any other F1 driver.

[Wez]

Shane2, on Nov 9 2006, 04:27 AM, said:

The thing people don't always come across about senna is that he had this skill to pull the absolute out of his machinery and extract every last ounce of speed out of it, and he had the ability to achieve very good results in technically inferior machinery. This is what i feel set him apart from any other F1 driver.

Indeed, The 1993 Mclaren for example was an absolute donkey... just ask Andretti & Hakkinen, and yet Senna won several races and finished runner up in the championship.

[Shane2]

The one i always remember was his win at Brazil in that car, he actually caught and passed Hill despite Hill being in the much more powerful williams

[Wez]

Shane2, on Nov 9 2006, 09:14 PM, said:

The one i always remember was his win at Brazil in that car, he actually caught and passed Hill despite Hill being in the much more powerful williams

Yeah, his victories at Donington in the rain & Adelade were also pure genius!

[Shane2]

I shall have to get hold of those, if someone still has them on a VHS somewhere and can rip them

[erichbarto]

man, comparing these two guys is so hard

if you go by stats, you'll have one income,
but if you go by the side by side, you'll have another.

i think they were both amazing drivers.

im partial to Senna because he was who I always cheered for growing up.

I wonder what they would say about each other if Senna was alive today

[suomenpankki]

Ayrton Senna - by Alain Prost

Alain Prost was talking to Nigel Roebuck




"Honestly, it's very difficult for me to talk about Ayrton, and not only because he's not here any more. He was so different, you know, so completely different from any other racing driver - any other person - I've ever known..."

Speaking now, more than four years after the death of Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost is in an invidious position, for while the two are linked for ever, indisputably the best drivers of their generation, so also each was very much the other's nemesis. That being the case, in discussing Senna, Prost cannot win, and Prost knows it. Come out with only kind words, and some will say that he sang a very different tune when Ayrton was alive; go the other way, and they will vilify him for daring to criticise a defenceless icon.

"That's why I have always refused to speak about him," says Prost. "When he died, I said, that I felt a part of me had died also, because our careers had been so bound together. And I really meant it, but I know some people thought it was not sincere. Well, all I can do is try to be as honest as possible."

From the very beginning of Ayrton Senna's Formula One career, back in 1984, his sights were set squarely on Prost. In a way it was inevitable, for Ayrton was a man of extraordinary intensity, one who needed to prove himself the best in all things, and at that time Alain was very much the king of the hill. It was their very first meeting that was to set the tone of their relationships down the years.

"I remember it very well. In the spring of 1984, the new Nürburgring was opened, and there was a celebrity race for Grand Prix drivers of the past and present, in Mercedes road cars. I was coming from Geneva to Frankfurt on a scheduled flight, and Ayrton was due to land half an hour before, so Gerd Kremer of Mercedes asked me if I would bring him to the track. On the way we chatted, and he was very pleasant. Then we got to the track, and practised the cars. I was on pole, with Ayrton second - after that he didn't talk to me any more! It seemed funny at the time. Then in the race, I took the lead - and he pushed me off the track after half a lap. So that was a good start..."

That year, 1984, was Senna's first in F1, and his Toleman-Hart was not on par with the front runners. At Monaco, though, there was rain, and when the race was abandoned, shortly before half-distance, the rookie was right on the point of passing Prost's McLaren for the lead.

"From the beginning, he looked good, although you can't always tell for sure when a guy is with a small team. He drove a great race at Monaco, but in those days - when monocoques were far less stiff than now - it was quite possible to have a poor car in the dry turn out to be very good in the wet. Of course we all rated him, but with the reservation that sometimes a young driver looks quite good, but then joins a top team, and looks ordinary. There's always some doubt until the guy gets into a quick car. With Ayrton, though, it was pretty clear he had a special talent."

"Something else people should remember is that, 15 years ago, there were a lot more very good drivers in F1 than there are now. For sure Ayrton did well from the beginning, but he showed nothing that was truly exceptional before Monaco. Monaco was the thing: after that everyone discovered him, and talked about him. Without that, it might have taken a little longer, but the impressive thing, as I say, was that he looked so good at a time when there were so many top drivers..."

Senna was also, from the start no respecter of reputations, and that upset many an established star. After a single season with Toleman, he joined Lotus-Renault for 1985, brilliantly won the Portuguese Grand Prix (again in the rain), and was a front runner everywhere. But at Hockenheim, for example, he made a mistake at the Ostkurve, and when Michele Alboreto went to pass, Ayrton swerved left and right to keep him back. Back then such tactics were not embraced by the F1 community.

"Hmmm, yes, Senna was very tough in that way, from the start. Actually, one thing I really believe now is that it wasn't so much a matter of being that tough as having his own rules. He had them, he believed in them, and that was it."

"He was extremely religious, and he used to go on about that, about speaking the truth, about his education, his upbringing, and everything else. At the time, I used to think that some of the things he did on the track didn't fit with all that, but now it seems to me he really didn't know he was sometimes in the wrong. As I said, he had these rules, he played by them, and he wasn't interested in anything else. Looking back, I really think he believed he was always in the right, always telling the truth - and on the track he was exactly the same way."

It was not, however, until Senna became Prost's team-mate, in 1988, that there were any problems between them. The year before, Lotus had used Honda engines, and Ayrton had established a deep relationship with the Japanese engineers. As he came to McLaren, so also did Honda. And one team insider puts it this way: "I tended to think of Prost as a McLaren driver with a Honda engine, and Senna as a Honda driver with a McLaren chassis."

"Yes, I think that was a good way of putting it. My biggest problem was that I really loved McLaren, and wanted to do everything I could for the team. For my team-mate in '88, it was a choice between Senna and Nelson Piquet. When I went with Ron (Dennis) to Japan, to meet the Honda people, I said that Ron should take Ayrton, because he was the more talented driver, and for me the team came first. If I was going back to the start of my racing career now, I would do it rather differently - I would concentrate on me and my job..."

"In fact, I could have said no to Ayrton coming to McLaren. One strength I have is that normally when I make a decision, I don't regret it, but, from my own point of view, on that occasion I definitely made a mistake!"

In the very first pre-season test the did together, in Rio, Prost saw that Senna was emphatically not doing this for the fun of it. "We were tyre-testing, just using one car. I did the first run, and he was then due to take it over. I came into the pits, and the mechanics began to change the wheels. I could see Ayrton there, helmet on, pacing around, waiting for me to get out, so I decided to stay in the car just a little longer. And he got furious, telling everyone, 'It's not fair, it's not fair!' Then I got out, and I was laughing. He was not...

"Actually, though, our working relationship through that first season was pretty good. The only problem was at Estoril, at the end of the first lap."

It was a moment which will never be forgotten by anyone there to witness it. Down the pit straight Prost slipstreamed Senna, then ducked right to go by, whereupon Ayrton swerved towards him, putting him maybe six inches from the pit wall. Alain didn't lift, and emerged into a lead which he would keep to the end, but afterwards he made his feelings plain.

"That move in Estoril was very dangerous, and, yes, I was angry afterwards. I was right against the pit wall, and I really thought we were going to touch, and have a big crash - with the whole pack right behind us. I didn't like it at all, and told him so, but, in a way, I can't blame him for doing it, because he did always get away with it. How many times in his Formula One career was Ayrton sanctioned for that kind of thing? Never."

"Still, apart from that, the first year wasn't too bad. On a few occasions he was quite tough and uncompromising with me, but we didn't really have any other problems. And, in fact, he did apologise to me for what happened in Portugal."

The pair had a staggering season in 1988, Prost scoring more points (105, from seven wins and seven seconds) than Senna (94, from eight wins, and three seconds), but Ayrton claiming the driver's championship, 90 points to 87, by virtue of the '11 best scores' rule which applied at the time.

"At the end of '88 I was very pleased for the team - we were first and second in the championship, and I really wasn't too upset that he won the title; I'd won it twice already by then, it wasn't a problem."

"For '89, though, I was worried about Honda. And I think my biggest problem was that I never had the relationship with them that Ayrton did. From the beginning, it was something I never felt I had under control. I wouldn't have cared very much if they'd simply preferred one driver in the team - but the way they handled the situation was very difficult for me, because Senna and I had very different driving styles."

"I never understood why Honda took his side so much. It wasn't that I thought it was a question of the Brazilian sales marked or the French market, or anything like that. It was more a human thing. I worked with Honda again last year - now as a team owner - and it struck me again: I think the Japanese just work differently. In a team, they always favour someone over the rest. I've heard it said about their motorcycle teams as well."

"Let me give you an example. At one point in '88, the last year we were allowed to run turbos, I asked for some specific changes to the engine to suit my driving style and we worked on it for two days at Paul Ricard. At the end of that test I was very happy - but at the next race, one week later, they never put that strategy on my engine."

"Then we went to the French Grand Prix - at Ricard - and suddenly the engine was just as I had wanted! You understand what I'm saying? Ayrton and I raced for two seasons together in the McLaren-Hondas, and at both the French Grands Prix I was on pole position and won the race. Everyone said, 'Oh look, it's Prost in front of his home crowd', and that sort of thing. It was nothing like that; it was just that at those races I had something which enabled me to fight..."

"Understand me, this is nothing against Ayrton, OK? Ayrton was very quick, and in qualifying he was much better than me - much more committed, just as I think I was when I was the younger driver in the team, against Niki (Lauda)."

"Anyway, before the 1989 season I had dinner at the golf club in Geneva with Honda's then chairman, Mr Kawamoto and four other people. And he admitted that I was right in believing that Honda was more for Ayrton than for me."

"He said, 'You want to know why we push Senna so much? Well, I can't be 100 per cent sure.' But one thing he did let me know was that the new generation of engineers working on the engines were in favour of Ayrton, because he was more the samurai, and I was more the computer."

"So, that was an explanation, and I was very happy afterwards, because then at least I knew very well that something was not correct. Part of my problem had been that Ayrton was so bloody quick, it wasn't easy to know how much was that, and how much was Honda helping him. So after this dinner with Mr Kawamoto, I thought, 'Well, at least I'm not stupid - something really was going on, and now I know the situation.'"

Whatever, the situation was not to improve. Quite the opposite, in fact. In 1989, the fragile relationship between Prost and Senna broke apart utterly, and that existing between Alain and McLaren was not a lot better.

"Until then, I never had a problem with anyone at McLaren, but '89 was different. My contract was due to expire at the end of the year, but Ayrton's was not. Ron knew the future of his team was with Honda - and therefore with Senna. He tried hard to persuade me to stay, but in reality he couldn't keep both of us, and I told him in July that I would be leaving at the end of the season. In my opinion, he was not fair with me in '89. We're still very good friends, and, despite everything, I still even now think of McLaren as my team. But Ron knows my feelings about that period."

"At the time, I was completely disillusioned. After everything I'd done with the team, and for the team, I didn't think I should have been treated like that. But at the end of the day, you know, Ron was trying to push his company to the front, and of course I can understand that a little."

It was at Imola that the most bitter feud in motor-racing history took seed. Senna and Prost, as usual, qualified 1-2, a second and a half clear of the rest, and Ayrton suggested that they not jeopardise their prospects by fighting at the first corner, Tosa, on the opening lap: whomsoever got there first would keep the lead. Alain agreed. At the start, Senna led away, and at Tosa Prost duly fell in behind him.

Then, however, the race was stopped, when Gerhard Berger had a serious accident. On the restart, it was Prost who got ahead - but at Tosa Senna snicked by into the lead.

"Afterwards, he argued that it wasn't the start - it was the restart, so the agreement didn't apply. As I said, he had his own rules, and sometimes they were very... well let's say strange. It had been Ayrton's idea, in the first place, and I didn't have a problem with it. Afterwards, though, I said it was finished; I'd continue to work with him, in technical matters, but as far as our personal relationship was concerned, that was it. And the atmosphere in the team became very bad, of course."

"By the time we got to Monza, I was ahead of him in the championship, by about 10 points. But that race. was the real low point between McLaren and me. Senna had two cars, with 20 people around him, and I had just one car, with maybe four or five mechanics working for me. I was absolutely alone, in one part of the garage, and that was perhaps the toughest weekend of my racing career. Honda was really hard against me by then, and it was difficult trying to fight for the championship in that situation. In practice, Ayrton was nearly two seconds quicker than me - OK, as I said, he was certainly a better qualifier than I was, but two seconds? That was a joke."

In the race though, Senna retired, and Prost won; by the time they headed off to Suzuka and Adelaide, the last two races of the 1989 season, Alain led by 16 points. By now McLaren-Honda essentially worked as two different teams, which happened to operate out of the same pit. Once again, the two red and white cars were in front row, both its drivers in defiant mood, Senna knowing he had to win, Prost making it clear he'd be no pushover.

"I told both the team and the press, 'There's no way I'm going to open the door to him any more.' We talked very often, you should know, about the first corner, the first lap, and Ron always said the important thing was that we shouldn't hit each other, we should think of the team. Well, as far as I was concerned, Senna thought about himself, and that was it. For example, at the start of the British Grand Prix that year, going into Copse, if I hadn't moved three or four metres out of the way we'd have hit each other, and both McLarens would have been out immediately. That sort of thing had happened too often; I had had enough."

"As for the accident between us at the chicane, yes, I know everybody thinks I did it on purpose. What I say is that I did not open the door, and that's it. I didn't want to finish the race like that - I'd led from the start, and I wanted to win it."

"I had a good car; I'd been very bad in qualifying, compared with Ayrton, and I concentrated entirely on the race. In the warm-up I was nearly a second quicker than him, and for the race itself I was quite confident, even when he started catching me."

"I didn't want him too close, obviously, but I wanted him close enough that he would hurt his tyres; my plan was then to pus hard over the last ten laps. As it was he tried to pass - and for me the way he did it was impossible, because he was going so much quicker than usual into the braking area."

"I couldn't believe he tried it on that lap, because, as we came up to the chicane, he was so far back. When you look in your mirrors, and a guy is 20 metres behind you, it's impossible to judge, and I didn't even realise he was trying to overtake me. But at the same time I thought, 'There's no way I'm going to leave him even a one-metre gap. No way'. I came off the throttle braked - and turned in."

A year later the two were back at Suzuka, once again to settle the World Championship, and this time it was Alain who had to win. Although no longer in the same team, he and Ayrton had not in any way diluted the intensity of their strife. Prost, said Senna, had better not try to turn into the first corner ahead of him: 'If he does, he's not going to make it...' In the event, at 150mph, the McLaren ran into the back of the Ferrari.

"Well, what can you say about that? After I'd retired we talked about it, and he admitted to me - as he did to the press - that he'd done it on purpose. He explained to me why he did it. He was furious with (FIA President) Balestre for not agreeing to change the grid, so that he could start on the left, and he told me he had decided that if I got to the first corner ahead of him, he'd push me off."

"What happened in Japan in '90 is something I will never forget, because it wasn't only Ayrton who was involved. Some of the people at McLaren, a lot of officials - and a lot of media - agreed with what he'd done, and that I couldn't accept. Honestly I almost retired after that race."

"As I always said, you know, he didn't want to beat me, metaphorically he wanted to destroy me - that was his motivation from the first day. Even in that Mercedes touring car race, back in '84, I realised that he wasn't interested in beating Alan Jones or Keke Rosberg or anyone else - it was me, just me, for some reason."

Right to the end of Prost's career as a driver, that situation never changed. But on the podium in Adelaide in 1993, Alain's last race, the two embraced, and it was as if, now that Alain was no longer a rival, Ayrton saw no reason for any more hostility. Prost was surprised by the gesture.

"Yes, I was - and also a little bit disappointed, to be honest. This will tell you something about Ayrton. In Japan, the race before, he won, and I was second. As we walked from the podium to the press conference, I said to him, 'This may be the last race where we are at a press conference together, and I think we should show the people something nice - maybe shake hands, or something.' He didn't answer me, but he didn't say no, either, so I thought maybe he agreed. We went to the press conference - and he wouldn't even look at me."

"In fact, I'd even thought maybe in Australia we could exchange helmets, the last helmets we'd worn in a race against each other - but after Japan, I forgot about it, because he hadn't seemed interested in any sort of reconciliation."

"Then we went to Adelaide, and finished first and second again. On our way to the podium afterwards, already he was starting to talk a little bit, and he said to me, 'What are you going to do now?' I was very surprised! 'I don't know yet', I said. 'You're going to be fat,' he sad, and he smiled. Then on the podium he put his arm round me, shook hands, and everything. Why? Because now it was his idea, and it was on his terms. OK, in any case, that was nice. But that was Ayrton - if it was his idea, fine; if not, forget it."

Later Senna would admit to a close friend that only after Prost's retirement had he come fully to realise how much of his motivation had come from fighting with this one rival. Only a couple of days before his death, filming an in-car lap of Imola for Elf, he amazed everyone with a spontaneous greeting: 'I'd like to welcome back my friend Alain - we all miss you...' Prost was touched by that.

"In fact, after I'd retired we spoke quite often on the telephone. He called me several times, usually to talk about safety; he wanted me to keep involved with that, and we had agreed to talk about it at Imola. That weekend he was talking, talking, talking, about safety, and he was much softer than before - for me, he changed completely in '94. He seemed to me very down somehow, without the same power as before."

"We had this conversation on the Friday, and I saw him again on the Sunday morning - after Roland Ratzenberger's fatal accident, of course. I was with a lot of people at the Renault motorhome at the time. You know how Ayrton usually was - he'd go from the garage straight to the motorhome, but that morning I was very surprised, because he came into the middle of all these people, which he would never normally do, just to get to me. We had a chat, and he was trying really had to be nice, to be friendly."

"Then I saw him in the garage briefly. I didn't want to disturb him, but I knew he wanted help, that he needed somebody. That was obvious. We were going to speak again the following week..."

Senna's funeral took place in Sao Paulo, four days later, and Prost was one of many drivers in attendance. It was not a particularly difficult decision to take, he said, except in one respect.

"I knew I wanted to go, but Ayrton and I had such a history for so long that I didn't really know how the Brazilian people would perceive it: would they be upset if I went, upset if I didn't go, or what? The day after the accident, I was in Paris, and a good friend of Jean-Luc Lagadere (the chairman of Matra) called me. His wife was Brazilian, and I asked his advice. 'I have my ticket ready', I said, 'but what do you think I should do?' He told me I should definitely go, that the Brazilian people would like that. I didn't have to be pushed - I already wanted to go - but he convinced me. And I know now that if I hadn't gone, I would have regretted it for the rest of my life."

"There was no hostility towards me in Sao Paulo at all - the very opposite, in fact. I'm still in contact with Ayrton's family all the time; the day after the funeral, his father invited me to his farm, and we talked for a long time. And I see his sister very often, do what I can to help with the foundation."

"Ayrton was certainly the best driver I ever raced against, by a long, long way. He was, by far, the most committed driver I ever saw. To be honest, I think maybe the best race driver - in terms of really applying intelligence - was Niki, but overall Ayrton was the best, by far. He was very successful in everything that mattered to him, everything that he set out to achieve for himself."

"Actually, I think it's not impossible that in time we might have become friends. We shared an awful lot, after all, and one thing never changed - even when our relationship was at its worst - was our great respect for each other as drivers. I don't think either of us worried too much about anyone else. And there were those times we did have fun together, you know. Not very often, but..."

"He was just strange, you know. In 1988, I remember, we had to go to the Geneva Motor Show for Honda; it's only 40 kilometres from my house, so I asked him to come over for lunch first, and then we'd drive there together. He came to my house - and slept for two hours! Hardly spoke at all."

"Then, after lunch, we went for a walk, and I still remember our conversation clearly. I liked to talk to him: sometimes it could be boring if he was going on about something, but usually it was fascinating. Yes, I think maybe we could have become friends eventually. Once we were not rivals any more everything changed."

"I look back on those days now and think to myself, 'Jesus, what was that all about? Why did we put ourselves through all of that?' Sometimes it seemed like a bad dream. Maybe because usually we were so much in front, it was inevitable that there would be problems between us, but why did it have to get so venomous - why did we have to live like that? I used to say to people, 'You're a fan of Ayrton Senna? Good, that's fine - but please don't hate me!' It was the same with the press."

"The pressure was so high, so high... If we had to do it all again, I think I'd say to Ayrton, 'Listen, we're the best, we can screw all the others!' With a lot of intelligence, it could have been such good dream. Still, even as it turned out, it was a fantastic story, don't you think? And I think, in a way, we're missing a little of that today."

Alain Prost was talking to Nigel Roebuck

[Wez]

suomenpankki, on Nov 23 2006, 12:38 PM, said:

"The pressure was so high, so high... If we had to do it all again, I think I'd say to Ayrton, 'Listen, we're the best, we can screw all the others!' With a lot of intelligence, it could have been such good dream. Still, even as it turned out, it was a fantastic story, don't you think? And I think, in a way, we're missing a little of that today."

Yes

[Ctrl300]

Wez, on Nov 23 2006, 10:43 PM, said:

Yes

Out of context.
Besides, Senna embrased Prost at his last GP in Australia and continued to call on him for help and inspiration before he died. The Professor v the Sped-devil.
IMHO, the former came out on top. Easy as that. Honda, sponsorship, etc ect etc. Need I go on?

[Wez]

Ctrl, I though we all came to agreement about 10 pages ago in this topic that Senna was undoubtedly not only the better driver of the 2, but also the best ever

[vanguard63]

='Ctrl300' date='May 10 2006, 12:19 PM' post='116032']
And you base that hilarious statement on what exactly

Well if you base everything off a win to race ratio then Schumacher was better than both of them put together! but as we all know scumacher never actually beat either Prost or Senna in a full race distance in 1993 Senna was just pipped by Prost who was basically driving a computer on wheels, Senna and Scumacher had much slower and less technical cars in that season. For my money Senna gave me much more pleasure to watch than Prost, although there is no denying Prost's talent.

[Autumnpuma]

vanguard63, on Dec 7 2006, 04:06 PM, said:

='Ctrl300' date='May 10 2006, 12:19 PM' post='116032']
And you base that hilarious statement on what exactly

Well if you base everything off a win to race ratio then Schumacher was better than both of them put together! but as we all know scumacher never actually beat either Prost or Senna in a full race distance in 1993 Senna was just pipped by Prost who was basically driving a computer on wheels, Senna and Scumacher had much slower and less technical cars in that season. For my money Senna gave me much more pleasure to watch than Prost, although there is no denying Prost's talent.

I suppose that should sum-up this whole debate. And speaking of pleasure to watch....nice avatar

[aussief1]

Autumnpuma, on Dec 8 2006, 01:47 PM, said:

I suppose that should sum-up this whole debate. And speaking of pleasure to watch....nice avatar

While it lasted  

I guess you had to be quick to see it