http://sports.yahoo....A...p&type=lgns
Another clear indication that it's on its last legs. One major hold up to the merge is the Japan race, that must be rescheduled. Long Beach is the second crown jewel in American open wheel racing just behind the Indy 500.
I hate to see King Tony win, but he needs this to happen or both series will fold.
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Champcar
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pumpdoc
, Feb 13 2008 01:31 PM
47 replies to this topic
#1
pumpdoc
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Posted 13 February 2008 - 01:31 PM
"Moving to Montana soon, gonna be a dentill floss tycoon"
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
#2
pumpdoc
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Posted 13 February 2008 - 02:03 PM
"Moving to Montana soon, gonna be a dentill floss tycoon"
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
#3
Grabthaw the Hammerslayer
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Posted 13 February 2008 - 03:39 PM
pumpdoc, on Feb 13 2008, 01:31 PM, said:
http://sports.yahoo....A...p&type=lgns
I hate to see King Tony win, but he needs this to happen or both series will fold.
I hate to see King Tony win, but he needs this to happen or both series will fold.
Absolutely.
Was shocked to see such an empty field in both series when I watched last year.
Also think they need to sort out the global TV access on this. Its very limited certainly in UK - amazing considering Dan Wheldon and Dario Franchitti are British - hardly had any media impact over here. Yet when Nigel Mansell raced in CART, there was daytime prime-time TV coverage on leading channels.
Don't know if this is the same in other parts of the world - I know that both series were popular in Australia, Brazil and Mexico.
The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on. - Robert Bloch
Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and I thought to myself, where the hell is the ceiling?
I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.
#4
HandyNZL
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Posted 14 February 2008 - 02:12 AM
Yes - CART in the Mansell and JV days was huge here in NZ, but as soon as the split happened it just disappeared, even with Scott Dixon doing well. ESPN still carries the IRL live in NZ. The only Champcar race we see is Gold Coast Indy 300...and what a boring race that always is....
#5
Yoda McFly
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Posted 14 February 2008 - 04:42 AM
Further proof that clever marketing and enough money will always beat out a superior product...
Remember the large role that Honduh played in destroying CART in the first place ...
Remember the large role that Honduh played in destroying CART in the first place ...
“Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of Defense with our peaceful methods and goals.”
-- Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961. (Emphasis mine).
"I'll never understand people. Even being one doesn't seem to help." -- Spider Robinson, Callahan's Key
"If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'?" -- RAH, ST
-- Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961. (Emphasis mine).
"I'll never understand people. Even being one doesn't seem to help." -- Spider Robinson, Callahan's Key
"If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'?" -- RAH, ST
#6
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Posted 14 February 2008 - 09:06 AM
What will Happen to all the teams like Newman Haas and Team Australia?
And Talanted drivers like Katherine Legge?
All I can say with a smug on my face is Sebastien Bourdais couldn't have picked it finer to come to F1.
And Talanted drivers like Katherine Legge?
All I can say with a smug on my face is Sebastien Bourdais couldn't have picked it finer to come to F1.
Go Mark. No.1
I'm not me foreman go and get stuffed. --- Kevin Bloody Wilson, The Builder Song
You know what, Hungry Jacks is all right , Ive got an Apartment on top of Hungry Jacks, because its the home of the Bloody Whopper...
I'm not me foreman go and get stuffed. --- Kevin Bloody Wilson, The Builder Song
You know what, Hungry Jacks is all right , Ive got an Apartment on top of Hungry Jacks, because its the home of the Bloody Whopper...
#7
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Posted 14 February 2008 - 02:20 PM
I think Bourdais made an excellent decision to move and probably killed ChampCar off.
I liked Will Power(have seen him in real life) and Juston Wilson but only becuase he was British and I knew him from F1.
Must admit when I watche it on TV a couple of times, got a little bored.
I liked Will Power(have seen him in real life) and Juston Wilson but only becuase he was British and I knew him from F1.
Must admit when I watche it on TV a couple of times, got a little bored.
#8
DOF_power
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Posted 14 February 2008 - 08:03 PM
Gurney's CART white paper:
Over the past 3 or 4 years I've had conversations with almost all of the car owners and team directors. I've had talks with drivers, with sanctioning body directors, with track owners and promoters and big sponsors and fans and other interested parties. Generally there is agreement that something is wrong with our sport -it is not reaching its full potential by any means, and there is great need for a change!
Early in my discussions I realized that we are so intent upon racing each other, that we do not stop to look and analyze our situation. In frustration I decided that things must get worse before we will all wake up. Our sport has the potential to be financially rewarding and healthy from a business standpoint for all participants. Many of the car owners and team directors are excellent and very successful businessman in their own lives outside of racing. We as businessmen should be ashamed of ourselves for being involved in a prestigious sport such as Championship racing with all its potential while it is as weak and disorganized (sick) as it presently is. It is truly strange that with all these 'heavyweights' involved, we still do not have our act together. ("Divide and conquer" still seems to be working doesn't it?).
O.K.! What shall we do about it? First let us digress for a moment. Let's study some history. Back in the early 70's, the status of Formula 1 Grand Prix racing was similar to our own USAC Championship racing right now. The crowds were quite small, sponsors were hard to find, the news media was not overly interested, expenses were high and going higher and the entire scene was one of disorganization.
It was at this moment in time that the desperateness of the situation made them unite and form an organization called the Formula 1 Constructors Association (FICA or FOCA). They appointed a man named Bernie Ecclestone as the chief of operations officer and negotiator and they made a solemn pledge to abide by his decisions 100%. They rolled up their sleeves and proceeded to up-grade the entire sport to the point where the paying spectator crowds are much, much larger, sponsors are numerous and happy to be involved, the media is vigorous in covering all the events on TV and so are weekly magazines and daily newspapers on a world wide basis, and money is coming back to the constructors and track owners in the form of larger ticket sales, more sponsorship, more prize money and expense money and the spectator is getting a much bigger, better spectacle for his ticket money.
The obvious fact is that the FOCA has transformed the Formula 1 Grand Prix racing scene from what was a weak and scattered group of teams without any bargaining or negotiating strength into a bona fide business. They did it by uniting and making that 'no turning back' commitment. They speak with one voice (that of the Chief negotiator) and that voice has gained authority by leaps and bounds.
Now, it is true that the Championship racing scene is somewhat different from Grand Prix racing and therefore it will require a slightly different organization to bring about an improvement. I only mention the FOCA organization as an example of something that has succeeded, on no uncertain terms. I think everyone agrees that the cost of Championship racing has escalated to the point where it is virtually ridiculous, and at the same time, many of the rewards have not increased at all, but have actually declined when you consider the effects of the general inflation in the U.S. economy.
At the moment we the car owners are the ones who have put forth by far the most effort, by far the most financial stake with little or no chance for return and yet, because we have been so busy fighting with each other, we have let the track owners or promoters and the sanctioning body lead us around by the nose while they reap the benefits. USAC for instance negotiates with TV as though it had the TV rights which in fact, if it came to a showdown, would turn out to be ours. (The car owners and teams).
It is obvious that if Long Beach can afford to pay approximately $1,000,000 per race after only 5 years of existence (established 1974) and maximum paid attendance of 70,000 so far, that Indy with its 600,000 plus audience (200 1st weekend qualifying, 100 2nd weekend qualifying, 300 Race Day for 600,000 paid attendance) and its 60 year tradition and international TV coverage, could afford to spend over $2 million on the purse, if it were to be fair. As Mr.Lindsey Hopkins said, "We are the ones who did more to build the stands at Indianapolis than anyone else. IMS should thank us each year, in addition to our thanking them".
In all of our discussions, as car owners and team leaders, we have agreed that it is essential that we continue to support USAC as the sanctioning body for Championship racing. The only improvement will be that USAC will work for us and support our cause and our policies as well. It should be clearly understood that the purpose of this organization is to make racing better in an overall way. Not just for the car owners and drivers, but also for the track owners and promoters and the sanctioning body and the sponsors and supporters and last but certainly not least, the racing fans and paying spectators.
In the final analysis of course, large crowds of paying spectators are the keys to success for all. Track owners and a sanctioning body who aggressively promote these big events which by contract will feature the teams and driving stars, will get the crowdswhich in turn excites the sponsors and TV networks and the crowd, etc., thereby upgrading the entire sport business. It is my firm belief that rather than cutting the cost of racing which in itself is nearly impossible, it is far more important to make money more readily available by increasing the popularity and prestige of the sport with the general public.
Tracks that refuse to put forth the necessary enterprise and promotion in order to meet the minimum purses should not be allowed to hold races. Another alternative is to allow our organization (this idea borrowed from the FICA) to take over the track on a reasonable lease arrangement and we can do the promotion and the running of the race where we feel it can be successful. Still USAC sanctioned of course. For instance, the German GP at Hockenheim will be promoted by the FOCA this year, 1978.
Now, how do we get there from here? As I see it, the first step is to analyze the situation, get together and form the organization. (Let's call it CART or Championship Auto Racing Teams.) Once we agree to the fact that CART is needed then we must outline what we want to do and how we should accomplish it. I believe that the organization can be operated by a staff of three people. One director/negotiator, one secretary and a staff accountant and gopher if needed. He will need an air travel card, a telephone credit card and an expense account. It is rumored that Bernie takes none of this, he only works on a 2% commission of everything that is done through the FOCA.
It appears that a 'show down' with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is or should be the first target. They are the ones who can afford it. We should re-negotiate the TV contract (our rights not theirs) and we should double the purse. Other tracks should be negotiated with on the basis of what is a reasonable amount of revenue to come from all sources such as TV, gate receipts, advertising sponsors, etc. The entire picture should be shared from the standpoint of cooperation rather than killing each other.
We must work together to learn how to upgrade the overall marketing advertising. If CART can send in drivers and media material beforehand to the newspapers, the TV stations, the Chamber of Commerce as well as various civic organizations and schools, etc. then we should do so. It is vital that we solve the riddle of getting more money coming in from spectator and sponsor advertisers, and TV networks so that there is a bigger pie to carve upthe only way our demands for more money in the form of a prize fund can have any validity is if the money is there in the first place. Unless we reach the point where we can see the books of these various tracks, we will be negotiating from a position of ignorance. It seems to me that we could all be further ahead if we worked together rather than be divided. We must see the tax returns and books.
With the correct program of exposure, a fuel company can still get the right sort of benefits from being the exclusive Championship series sponsor. Cigarettes, Whiskey, Banking, Unionswe need a very aggressive sales promotion team with super people heading it. How do we finance this C.A.R.T. operation? Entry fees? Percentage of the purse? Etc. I'm open for suggestions. Someone (our man from C.A.R.T.) must be part of all d#ck King's negotiations with track promoters and television people and series sponsors etc.
Over the past 3 or 4 years I've had conversations with almost all of the car owners and team directors. I've had talks with drivers, with sanctioning body directors, with track owners and promoters and big sponsors and fans and other interested parties. Generally there is agreement that something is wrong with our sport -it is not reaching its full potential by any means, and there is great need for a change!
Early in my discussions I realized that we are so intent upon racing each other, that we do not stop to look and analyze our situation. In frustration I decided that things must get worse before we will all wake up. Our sport has the potential to be financially rewarding and healthy from a business standpoint for all participants. Many of the car owners and team directors are excellent and very successful businessman in their own lives outside of racing. We as businessmen should be ashamed of ourselves for being involved in a prestigious sport such as Championship racing with all its potential while it is as weak and disorganized (sick) as it presently is. It is truly strange that with all these 'heavyweights' involved, we still do not have our act together. ("Divide and conquer" still seems to be working doesn't it?).
O.K.! What shall we do about it? First let us digress for a moment. Let's study some history. Back in the early 70's, the status of Formula 1 Grand Prix racing was similar to our own USAC Championship racing right now. The crowds were quite small, sponsors were hard to find, the news media was not overly interested, expenses were high and going higher and the entire scene was one of disorganization.
It was at this moment in time that the desperateness of the situation made them unite and form an organization called the Formula 1 Constructors Association (FICA or FOCA). They appointed a man named Bernie Ecclestone as the chief of operations officer and negotiator and they made a solemn pledge to abide by his decisions 100%. They rolled up their sleeves and proceeded to up-grade the entire sport to the point where the paying spectator crowds are much, much larger, sponsors are numerous and happy to be involved, the media is vigorous in covering all the events on TV and so are weekly magazines and daily newspapers on a world wide basis, and money is coming back to the constructors and track owners in the form of larger ticket sales, more sponsorship, more prize money and expense money and the spectator is getting a much bigger, better spectacle for his ticket money.
The obvious fact is that the FOCA has transformed the Formula 1 Grand Prix racing scene from what was a weak and scattered group of teams without any bargaining or negotiating strength into a bona fide business. They did it by uniting and making that 'no turning back' commitment. They speak with one voice (that of the Chief negotiator) and that voice has gained authority by leaps and bounds.
Now, it is true that the Championship racing scene is somewhat different from Grand Prix racing and therefore it will require a slightly different organization to bring about an improvement. I only mention the FOCA organization as an example of something that has succeeded, on no uncertain terms. I think everyone agrees that the cost of Championship racing has escalated to the point where it is virtually ridiculous, and at the same time, many of the rewards have not increased at all, but have actually declined when you consider the effects of the general inflation in the U.S. economy.
At the moment we the car owners are the ones who have put forth by far the most effort, by far the most financial stake with little or no chance for return and yet, because we have been so busy fighting with each other, we have let the track owners or promoters and the sanctioning body lead us around by the nose while they reap the benefits. USAC for instance negotiates with TV as though it had the TV rights which in fact, if it came to a showdown, would turn out to be ours. (The car owners and teams).
It is obvious that if Long Beach can afford to pay approximately $1,000,000 per race after only 5 years of existence (established 1974) and maximum paid attendance of 70,000 so far, that Indy with its 600,000 plus audience (200 1st weekend qualifying, 100 2nd weekend qualifying, 300 Race Day for 600,000 paid attendance) and its 60 year tradition and international TV coverage, could afford to spend over $2 million on the purse, if it were to be fair. As Mr.Lindsey Hopkins said, "We are the ones who did more to build the stands at Indianapolis than anyone else. IMS should thank us each year, in addition to our thanking them".
In all of our discussions, as car owners and team leaders, we have agreed that it is essential that we continue to support USAC as the sanctioning body for Championship racing. The only improvement will be that USAC will work for us and support our cause and our policies as well. It should be clearly understood that the purpose of this organization is to make racing better in an overall way. Not just for the car owners and drivers, but also for the track owners and promoters and the sanctioning body and the sponsors and supporters and last but certainly not least, the racing fans and paying spectators.
In the final analysis of course, large crowds of paying spectators are the keys to success for all. Track owners and a sanctioning body who aggressively promote these big events which by contract will feature the teams and driving stars, will get the crowdswhich in turn excites the sponsors and TV networks and the crowd, etc., thereby upgrading the entire sport business. It is my firm belief that rather than cutting the cost of racing which in itself is nearly impossible, it is far more important to make money more readily available by increasing the popularity and prestige of the sport with the general public.
Tracks that refuse to put forth the necessary enterprise and promotion in order to meet the minimum purses should not be allowed to hold races. Another alternative is to allow our organization (this idea borrowed from the FICA) to take over the track on a reasonable lease arrangement and we can do the promotion and the running of the race where we feel it can be successful. Still USAC sanctioned of course. For instance, the German GP at Hockenheim will be promoted by the FOCA this year, 1978.
Now, how do we get there from here? As I see it, the first step is to analyze the situation, get together and form the organization. (Let's call it CART or Championship Auto Racing Teams.) Once we agree to the fact that CART is needed then we must outline what we want to do and how we should accomplish it. I believe that the organization can be operated by a staff of three people. One director/negotiator, one secretary and a staff accountant and gopher if needed. He will need an air travel card, a telephone credit card and an expense account. It is rumored that Bernie takes none of this, he only works on a 2% commission of everything that is done through the FOCA.
It appears that a 'show down' with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is or should be the first target. They are the ones who can afford it. We should re-negotiate the TV contract (our rights not theirs) and we should double the purse. Other tracks should be negotiated with on the basis of what is a reasonable amount of revenue to come from all sources such as TV, gate receipts, advertising sponsors, etc. The entire picture should be shared from the standpoint of cooperation rather than killing each other.
We must work together to learn how to upgrade the overall marketing advertising. If CART can send in drivers and media material beforehand to the newspapers, the TV stations, the Chamber of Commerce as well as various civic organizations and schools, etc. then we should do so. It is vital that we solve the riddle of getting more money coming in from spectator and sponsor advertisers, and TV networks so that there is a bigger pie to carve upthe only way our demands for more money in the form of a prize fund can have any validity is if the money is there in the first place. Unless we reach the point where we can see the books of these various tracks, we will be negotiating from a position of ignorance. It seems to me that we could all be further ahead if we worked together rather than be divided. We must see the tax returns and books.
With the correct program of exposure, a fuel company can still get the right sort of benefits from being the exclusive Championship series sponsor. Cigarettes, Whiskey, Banking, Unionswe need a very aggressive sales promotion team with super people heading it. How do we finance this C.A.R.T. operation? Entry fees? Percentage of the purse? Etc. I'm open for suggestions. Someone (our man from C.A.R.T.) must be part of all d#ck King's negotiations with track promoters and television people and series sponsors etc.
Quote
You start with fuel, you do one stop and it's pretty much a train all the way
Lewis Hamilton
Lewis Hamilton
#9
Eric
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Posted 18 February 2008 - 08:31 PM
Making TG the hero of this would make sense, and since I usually am pro-TG, I'll take a different side today.
Champ Car is having a communication malfunction, and the promoters have no idea if they'll have a race or not, and if they do, will it be CCWS or IRL? The teams don't know, no one knows.
TG picked a perfect time to make the offer, and I'm sure it was intentional. If they don't merge for 2008, he's already ruined the entire 2008 Champ Car season anyway by causing mass confusion and making Champ Car p**s everyone off.
It's a win-win situation for TG. If he gets Champ Car, he's got his complete control. If he doesn't, he at least ruined anything that was left for 2008, and Champ Car will fold and TG wil get them anyway.
Champ Car is having a communication malfunction, and the promoters have no idea if they'll have a race or not, and if they do, will it be CCWS or IRL? The teams don't know, no one knows.
TG picked a perfect time to make the offer, and I'm sure it was intentional. If they don't merge for 2008, he's already ruined the entire 2008 Champ Car season anyway by causing mass confusion and making Champ Car p**s everyone off.
It's a win-win situation for TG. If he gets Champ Car, he's got his complete control. If he doesn't, he at least ruined anything that was left for 2008, and Champ Car will fold and TG wil get them anyway.
#10
E.Wheldon
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Posted 18 February 2008 - 11:25 PM
This is one of the bests texts I've ever read about CCWS and IRL merge.
EKL, you're right when you say that Tony George is already destroying the 2008 Champ Car Season. It's sad, because CCWS is about to bring some "rejecteds" from europe like Montagny or Bernoldi (who was racing in Brazil)... Champ Car could have Doornbos at the grid again too... This situation is really a shame.
CCWS have a much better car, I think that the drivers are more or less at the same level, and IRL have Indianapolis. They should get the best things from each Series, but all I see is IRL taking over the CCWS with those old Dallaras and Tony George looking like a hero... The same man that messed it all up 13 years ago...
I like both IRL and CCWS, but I want a real merge, not IRL taking over... What looks to be the thing the american media wants.
EKL, you're right when you say that Tony George is already destroying the 2008 Champ Car Season. It's sad, because CCWS is about to bring some "rejecteds" from europe like Montagny or Bernoldi (who was racing in Brazil)... Champ Car could have Doornbos at the grid again too... This situation is really a shame.
CCWS have a much better car, I think that the drivers are more or less at the same level, and IRL have Indianapolis. They should get the best things from each Series, but all I see is IRL taking over the CCWS with those old Dallaras and Tony George looking like a hero... The same man that messed it all up 13 years ago...
I like both IRL and CCWS, but I want a real merge, not IRL taking over... What looks to be the thing the american media wants.
#11
Eric
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Posted 19 February 2008 - 12:21 AM
E.Wheldon, on Feb 18 2008, 06:25 PM, said:
This is one of the bests texts I've ever read about CCWS and IRL merge.
EKL, you're right when you say that Tony George is already destroying the 2008 Champ Car Season. It's sad, because CCWS is about to bring some "rejecteds" from europe like Montagny or Bernoldi (who was racing in Brazil)... Champ Car could have Doornbos at the grid again too... This situation is really a shame.
CCWS have a much better car, I think that the drivers are more or less at the same level, and IRL have Indianapolis. They should get the best things from each Series, but all I see is IRL taking over the CCWS with those old Dallaras and Tony George looking like a hero... The same man that messed it all up 13 years ago...
I like both IRL and CCWS, but I want a real merge, not IRL taking over... What looks to be the thing the american media wants.
EKL, you're right when you say that Tony George is already destroying the 2008 Champ Car Season. It's sad, because CCWS is about to bring some "rejecteds" from europe like Montagny or Bernoldi (who was racing in Brazil)... Champ Car could have Doornbos at the grid again too... This situation is really a shame.
CCWS have a much better car, I think that the drivers are more or less at the same level, and IRL have Indianapolis. They should get the best things from each Series, but all I see is IRL taking over the CCWS with those old Dallaras and Tony George looking like a hero... The same man that messed it all up 13 years ago...
I like both IRL and CCWS, but I want a real merge, not IRL taking over... What looks to be the thing the american media wants.
I feel Tony George isn't the best to run American open wheel, but he is 9324903284 times better than the Three Amoebas who run CCWS. Those three aren't even on the same page with eachother, and they single-handedly drove CART to the ground with this Champ Car product. Both of them combined ruined it, and I feel TG has brought the IRL to a more CART-like series with more competition, sponsors, attendance, and TV ratings.
However, I have something to ask everyone: no one has talked about it, but what happens to the Indy Pro Series and Champ Car Atlantics? No one bothered to mention that in all this talk of a merge, but I'd hate to see some of the Atlantics top talent like Bomarito, Hinchcliffe, Cameron, Skerlong, etc out of rides because the two big series merged. IPS already has a huge and diverse grid, and I just don't see the room for the Atlantic teams, or the money for the Atlantic teams to switch. That, to me, sucks.
#12
E.Wheldon
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Posted 19 February 2008 - 01:59 AM
I'm a Panoz fan! I think they are the most beautiful open-wheel cars in the world right now, and they are pretty fast at road courses. Of course not compared to a F1, but definitely when compared to an A1GP or even a GP2.
What I call a "real merge", is an entire union between the two series. Dallara and Panoz making the chassis, Cosworth and Honda the engines. Maybe a schedule with 20 races, 5 road courses, 5 street races and 10 ovals... Or something like that... But I believe it's far from possible today, maybe in 2 or 3 years if the merge happens soon enough...
I agree with you when you say that it would be necessary a new car, it looks like IRL will launch a new car at 2009 or 2010, I don't know (that's an IRL fans speculation)... But if it is to use the old cars, I preffer the DP01. Specially at road courses where the Dallaras just don't have the speed. By the way, I think they were faster some years ago even at ovals. Maybe use the DP01 at road courses and street circuits, and the Dallaras at ovals would be a solution, but I think it would be very expensive for the teams...
I think the idea behind the Champ Cars is better then the IRL one, but I agree with you when you define Kalkhoven and Forsythe as amoebas. They don't know how to bring sponsors, attention, anything to the series... It ends up wasting all Champ Car's potencial. At the other hand I don't trust Tony George and maybe the only solution is the teams takking over both series, I don't know...
We'll hear a lot about this until both seasons kicks off.
About Champ Car Atlantics and the Indy Pro Series... The only thing I've heard, from a IRL fanatic, is that the IPS would become a door to the Atlantics. But it doesn't make sense to me when Raphael Matos just became Atlantics 2007 Champion and is to race at the IPS in 2008. In the end, I have no idea of what is going to happen too.
What I call a "real merge", is an entire union between the two series. Dallara and Panoz making the chassis, Cosworth and Honda the engines. Maybe a schedule with 20 races, 5 road courses, 5 street races and 10 ovals... Or something like that... But I believe it's far from possible today, maybe in 2 or 3 years if the merge happens soon enough...
I agree with you when you say that it would be necessary a new car, it looks like IRL will launch a new car at 2009 or 2010, I don't know (that's an IRL fans speculation)... But if it is to use the old cars, I preffer the DP01. Specially at road courses where the Dallaras just don't have the speed. By the way, I think they were faster some years ago even at ovals. Maybe use the DP01 at road courses and street circuits, and the Dallaras at ovals would be a solution, but I think it would be very expensive for the teams...
I think the idea behind the Champ Cars is better then the IRL one, but I agree with you when you define Kalkhoven and Forsythe as amoebas. They don't know how to bring sponsors, attention, anything to the series... It ends up wasting all Champ Car's potencial. At the other hand I don't trust Tony George and maybe the only solution is the teams takking over both series, I don't know...
We'll hear a lot about this until both seasons kicks off.
About Champ Car Atlantics and the Indy Pro Series... The only thing I've heard, from a IRL fanatic, is that the IPS would become a door to the Atlantics. But it doesn't make sense to me when Raphael Matos just became Atlantics 2007 Champion and is to race at the IPS in 2008. In the end, I have no idea of what is going to happen too.
Edited by E.Wheldon, 19 February 2008 - 02:00 AM.
#13
Eric
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Posted 19 February 2008 - 02:26 AM
E.Wheldon, on Feb 18 2008, 08:59 PM, said:
I'm a Panoz fan! I think they are the most beautiful open-wheel cars in the world right now, and they are pretty fast at road courses. Of course not compared to a F1, but definitely when compared to an A1GP or even a GP2.
What I call a "real merge", is an entire union between the two series. Dallara and Panoz making the chassis, Cosworth and Honda the engines. Maybe a schedule with 20 races, 5 road courses, 5 street races and 10 ovals... Or something like that... But I believe it's far from possible today, maybe in 2 or 3 years if the merge happens soon enough...
I agree with you when you say that it would be necessary a new car, it looks like IRL will launch a new car at 2009 or 2010, I don't know (that's an IRL fans speculation)... But if it is to use the old cars, I preffer the DP01. Specially at road courses where the Dallaras just don't have the speed. By the way, I think they were faster some years ago even at ovals. Maybe use the DP01 at road courses and street circuits, and the Dallaras at ovals would be a solution, but I think it would be very expensive for the teams...
I think the idea behind the Champ Cars is better then the IRL one, but I agree with you when you define Kalkhoven and Forsythe as amoebas. They don't know how to bring sponsors, attention, anything to the series... It ends up wasting all Champ Car's potencial. At the other hand I don't trust Tony George and maybe the only solution is the teams takking over both series, I don't know...
We'll hear a lot about this until both seasons kicks off.
About Champ Car Atlantics and the Indy Pro Series... The only thing I've heard, from a IRL fanatic, is that the IPS would become a door to the Atlantics. But it doesn't make sense to me when Raphael Matos just became Atlantics 2007 Champion and is to race at the IPS in 2008. In the end, I have no idea of what is going to happen too.
What I call a "real merge", is an entire union between the two series. Dallara and Panoz making the chassis, Cosworth and Honda the engines. Maybe a schedule with 20 races, 5 road courses, 5 street races and 10 ovals... Or something like that... But I believe it's far from possible today, maybe in 2 or 3 years if the merge happens soon enough...
I agree with you when you say that it would be necessary a new car, it looks like IRL will launch a new car at 2009 or 2010, I don't know (that's an IRL fans speculation)... But if it is to use the old cars, I preffer the DP01. Specially at road courses where the Dallaras just don't have the speed. By the way, I think they were faster some years ago even at ovals. Maybe use the DP01 at road courses and street circuits, and the Dallaras at ovals would be a solution, but I think it would be very expensive for the teams...
I think the idea behind the Champ Cars is better then the IRL one, but I agree with you when you define Kalkhoven and Forsythe as amoebas. They don't know how to bring sponsors, attention, anything to the series... It ends up wasting all Champ Car's potencial. At the other hand I don't trust Tony George and maybe the only solution is the teams takking over both series, I don't know...
We'll hear a lot about this until both seasons kicks off.
About Champ Car Atlantics and the Indy Pro Series... The only thing I've heard, from a IRL fanatic, is that the IPS would become a door to the Atlantics. But it doesn't make sense to me when Raphael Matos just became Atlantics 2007 Champion and is to race at the IPS in 2008. In the end, I have no idea of what is going to happen too.
As long as Brian France of NASCAR isn't running it, I'll be okay. Tony Cotman wasn't too bad, and he's in the IRL now, so I think the two Tony's can get the job done.
And there's always one factor to consider with TG: there's no USGP in 2008, meaning that's $15mil he isn't spending. Can you say Dallaras for N/H/L, Walker Racing, PKV, etc? When the USGP first got cancelled, I said it was good for the IRL, but I never would've guessed it could lead to this...
All I want is unification for the 92nd Running of the Indianapolis 500-Mile Race. Let's bump on Bump Day, boys and girls.
#14
Eric
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Posted 19 February 2008 - 04:17 PM
It's Over
One thing I want to point in that article, while there are 16 confirmed IRL entries, the number could be around 18-21, meaning with the addition of 8 CCWS teams, we could have a 29-car grid. I'll say it'll be in the 25-car range. Badass!
One thing I want to point in that article, while there are 16 confirmed IRL entries, the number could be around 18-21, meaning with the addition of 8 CCWS teams, we could have a 29-car grid. I'll say it'll be in the 25-car range. Badass!
#15
HandyNZL
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Posted 19 February 2008 - 11:49 PM
Well thats perhaps the best thing that could of happened. The split did nothing but damage open wheel racing in the states - and at a time when CART was much more entertaining to watch than F1. I hope they can iron out all the creases and turn the series back into what it used to be.
#16
E.Wheldon
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Posted 20 February 2008 - 01:33 PM
Don't know... Robin Miller said that the Champ Car bankruptcy would happen one week ago... I'm not saying it's not going to happen, but for sure he is one person who really wants to see it happenning (if not THE PERSON). He have hurt feelings with Kalkhoven who kicked him out Champ Car!
I think it's really going to happen (the merge), but I'll not believe untill other person says it.
Of course, everyone had enough of that anual IRL X Champ Car talk that happens every year... It just makes people don't care about both series... So it's really better for the teams, the drivers, the sponsors... Everyone!
At the end just doesn't matter the way it happened, just the fact that it did. I'm waiting for an official confirmation.
I think it's really going to happen (the merge), but I'll not believe untill other person says it.
Of course, everyone had enough of that anual IRL X Champ Car talk that happens every year... It just makes people don't care about both series... So it's really better for the teams, the drivers, the sponsors... Everyone!
At the end just doesn't matter the way it happened, just the fact that it did. I'm waiting for an official confirmation.
Edited by E.Wheldon, 20 February 2008 - 01:39 PM.
#17
Yoda McFly
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Posted 20 February 2008 - 05:42 PM
"The way it happened" does matter ... King George has won; the Revolution has been put down.
Anyone that honestly believes that the end product is going to be any different than the Injury league is delusional.
Yes, the long-term result might be better than that, but the simple fact is that a man with more money than god and that changes his story and his promises more often than a politician; that is in bed with an engine manufacturer that helped to destroy CART in the first place, and that still has some unholy behind-the-scenes alliance with the France family, has won...
I'm not saying that two series was good; one series is necessary. As a lover of openness, freedom and choice, however, I think that we, as racing fans, have lost another choice.
(Here, Yoda, have some Kool-Aid, it'll help)...
And what happens with the CCWS ladder series? Gonna fold them in, too?
Unification is good. Unification under the thumb of King George is bad.
Anyone that honestly believes that the end product is going to be any different than the Injury league is delusional.
Yes, the long-term result might be better than that, but the simple fact is that a man with more money than god and that changes his story and his promises more often than a politician; that is in bed with an engine manufacturer that helped to destroy CART in the first place, and that still has some unholy behind-the-scenes alliance with the France family, has won...
I'm not saying that two series was good; one series is necessary. As a lover of openness, freedom and choice, however, I think that we, as racing fans, have lost another choice.
(Here, Yoda, have some Kool-Aid, it'll help)...
And what happens with the CCWS ladder series? Gonna fold them in, too?
Unification is good. Unification under the thumb of King George is bad.
Edited by Yoda McFly, 20 February 2008 - 05:43 PM.
“Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of Defense with our peaceful methods and goals.”
-- Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961. (Emphasis mine).
"I'll never understand people. Even being one doesn't seem to help." -- Spider Robinson, Callahan's Key
"If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'?" -- RAH, ST
-- Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961. (Emphasis mine).
"I'll never understand people. Even being one doesn't seem to help." -- Spider Robinson, Callahan's Key
"If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'?" -- RAH, ST
#18
E.Wheldon
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Posted 20 February 2008 - 06:15 PM
I preffer Champ Car, and I am not a Tony George fan too...
But I think that an unification like the one that's happening is better then no unification at all...
Seriously... With Champ Car actual situation and IRL engine supply contract with Honda comming to an end soon... If they stay splitted, things will become even worse... If it's possible.
But I think that an unification like the one that's happening is better then no unification at all...
Seriously... With Champ Car actual situation and IRL engine supply contract with Honda comming to an end soon... If they stay splitted, things will become even worse... If it's possible.
#19
Autumnpuma
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Posted 20 February 2008 - 07:09 PM
Yoda McFly, on Feb 20 2008, 09:42 AM, said:
"The way it happened" does matter ... King George has won; the Revolution has been put down.
Anyone that honestly believes that the end product is going to be any different than the Injury league is delusional.
Yes, the long-term result might be better than that, but the simple fact is that a man with more money than god and that changes his story and his promises more often than a politician; that is in bed with an engine manufacturer that helped to destroy CART in the first place, and that still has some unholy behind-the-scenes alliance with the France family, has won...
I'm not saying that two series was good; one series is necessary. As a lover of openness, freedom and choice, however, I think that we, as racing fans, have lost another choice.
(Here, Yoda, have some Kool-Aid, it'll help)...
And what happens with the CCWS ladder series? Gonna fold them in, too?
Unification is good. Unification under the thumb of King George is bad.
Anyone that honestly believes that the end product is going to be any different than the Injury league is delusional.
Yes, the long-term result might be better than that, but the simple fact is that a man with more money than god and that changes his story and his promises more often than a politician; that is in bed with an engine manufacturer that helped to destroy CART in the first place, and that still has some unholy behind-the-scenes alliance with the France family, has won...
I'm not saying that two series was good; one series is necessary. As a lover of openness, freedom and choice, however, I think that we, as racing fans, have lost another choice.
(Here, Yoda, have some Kool-Aid, it'll help)...
And what happens with the CCWS ladder series? Gonna fold them in, too?
Unification is good. Unification under the thumb of King George is bad.
This is why I study at the feet of the master. Word.
I've heard on the radio this morning that a unification deal may be announced today. I have a glimmer of hope that we will again see the CART of old where open-wheel, international racing is done on speedways, superspeedways, street circuits and race courses. A champion of that series would be a master many disciplines. That is my hope.
My concern is about the Vanderbuilt Cup. What will happen to that? Will it go into an auto museum in Vegas? Perhaps a dusty closet of a rich man?
Don't rest in peace, Bruce. Raise Hell.
______
Give me a roof over my head, some food to eat and a fast car. That's all I need.
That's all I'll ever need.
----Robert Kubica
"Gilles was the last great driver. The rest of us are just a bunch of good professionals."
----Alain Prost
The only true sports are motor racing and mountain climbing; everything else is just a game.
TF1 Blogs: be afraid, be very, very afraid..........
______
Give me a roof over my head, some food to eat and a fast car. That's all I need.
That's all I'll ever need.
----Robert Kubica
"Gilles was the last great driver. The rest of us are just a bunch of good professionals."
----Alain Prost
The only true sports are motor racing and mountain climbing; everything else is just a game.
TF1 Blogs: be afraid, be very, very afraid..........
#20
pumpdoc
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Posted 20 February 2008 - 08:02 PM
"Moving to Montana soon, gonna be a dentill floss tycoon"
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
#21
Yoda McFly
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Posted 20 February 2008 - 09:25 PM
N.B.: I'm writing this as I actually post the rant below. The rant below was started about three hours ago, and written in fits and starts, because that pesky 'work' thing keeps getting in the way. I haven't had the opportunity to read the "latest news", specifically as posted by Bruce directly above, but I will. Believe me, I won't likely shut up about this for a while. Good thing for all of you that I'm going to be out of town and likely away from a PC for most of Thursday, all of Friday to Sunday, and most of Monday... 
------ Actual message follows ------
I should point out that my earlier post was made in haste, rushing to get out the door. Plus, I'm sick as a dog, and have to fly tomorrow, which is going to be like 8 hours of having knives stuck in my ears...
Anyway, to try to clarify and amplify:
Yes, any unification has the potential to be better than no unification.
Does anyone remember the circumstances under which the IRL was created? And the statements that TG made at the time? Remember how it was to be an "all-oval", "all-North-American" series? "To give American drivers a better chance" at success in a "major" series? <sarcasm> Hmm... Yep that's definitely how it turned out. </sarcasm>
Does anyone wonder about the fact that the vast majority of major paved ovals (by that I mean paved, and long enough to hold a "tier 1" event, so call it a mile or better) in the US are owned by ISC? (You all know that ISC is controlled by the France family, right?) And did you notice how, as the schism wore on, CART/CCWS lost more and more of its oval venues? While the IRL started racing at traditional CART venues ... (Although, IIRC and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, the record for the fastest-ever 500 mile race still belongs to Jimmy Vasser...) I don't have to point out who owns the road courses that the Winston Cup runs on, and that were the IRL's first forays into road racing, do I?
Does anyone remember Cosworth building "GM"-badged (Olds? W/EtF they were) engines because of the Japanese engines' superiority, and the potential for embarrassment brought about by a 'Murrican builder not being competitive in the "All-American" series and the "Great American Race" ...?
Can anyone prove to me that any top-tier Honda or Toyota IRL team ever actually paid for a lump?
Does anyone remember when Honda worked out a way to get a few more pounds of boost in CART ... and promptly got slapped down...?
Does anyone honestly believe that the IRL would still be around without Momma Hulman's "Everfull Purse of Profligate Spending". (Hmm, next time I run a D&D campaign, I need to give one of those to a player ...
)
I guess my point is this: Tony George is a 165-pound sack of excrement. He and most of the people around him don't give a rat's arse about the racing, the drivers or the fans; it's about building their empires and crushing the opposition. That's the way it's been since '96 ("Ha Ha! I have the track you want, so screw you, hippies, play my way or don't play!"). That's the Honda (and 'Yota, tho' they're not technically currently in the picture) way: spend whatever is necessary to crush the competition. I'm glad that it hasn't worked for either giant in F1, but it's been hell for American racing.
All hail our new corporate overlords... How long until the France family buys "the open wheel operation" from the Hulman/George family? (Remember, you read it here first).
I, for one, like having choices in my life. I find the manner in which TG appears to have won to be similar to the Microsoft Method of Market Domination: it doesn't matter if your product is inferior or irrelevant, just follow these three, easy steps:
I need a new hobby. Competetive Tiddlywinks FTW!
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!" -- The Governator, when asked "What is best in life"
------ Actual message follows ------
I should point out that my earlier post was made in haste, rushing to get out the door. Plus, I'm sick as a dog, and have to fly tomorrow, which is going to be like 8 hours of having knives stuck in my ears...
Anyway, to try to clarify and amplify:
Yes, any unification has the potential to be better than no unification.
Does anyone remember the circumstances under which the IRL was created? And the statements that TG made at the time? Remember how it was to be an "all-oval", "all-North-American" series? "To give American drivers a better chance" at success in a "major" series? <sarcasm> Hmm... Yep that's definitely how it turned out. </sarcasm>
Does anyone wonder about the fact that the vast majority of major paved ovals (by that I mean paved, and long enough to hold a "tier 1" event, so call it a mile or better) in the US are owned by ISC? (You all know that ISC is controlled by the France family, right?) And did you notice how, as the schism wore on, CART/CCWS lost more and more of its oval venues? While the IRL started racing at traditional CART venues ... (Although, IIRC and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, the record for the fastest-ever 500 mile race still belongs to Jimmy Vasser...) I don't have to point out who owns the road courses that the Winston Cup runs on, and that were the IRL's first forays into road racing, do I?
Does anyone remember Cosworth building "GM"-badged (Olds? W/EtF they were) engines because of the Japanese engines' superiority, and the potential for embarrassment brought about by a 'Murrican builder not being competitive in the "All-American" series and the "Great American Race" ...?
Can anyone prove to me that any top-tier Honda or Toyota IRL team ever actually paid for a lump?
Does anyone remember when Honda worked out a way to get a few more pounds of boost in CART ... and promptly got slapped down...?
Does anyone honestly believe that the IRL would still be around without Momma Hulman's "Everfull Purse of Profligate Spending". (Hmm, next time I run a D&D campaign, I need to give one of those to a player ...
)I guess my point is this: Tony George is a 165-pound sack of excrement. He and most of the people around him don't give a rat's arse about the racing, the drivers or the fans; it's about building their empires and crushing the opposition. That's the way it's been since '96 ("Ha Ha! I have the track you want, so screw you, hippies, play my way or don't play!"). That's the Honda (and 'Yota, tho' they're not technically currently in the picture) way: spend whatever is necessary to crush the competition. I'm glad that it hasn't worked for either giant in F1, but it's been hell for American racing.
All hail our new corporate overlords... How long until the France family buys "the open wheel operation" from the Hulman/George family? (Remember, you read it here first).
I, for one, like having choices in my life. I find the manner in which TG appears to have won to be similar to the Microsoft Method of Market Domination: it doesn't matter if your product is inferior or irrelevant, just follow these three, easy steps:
- Market the hell out of it, while convincing the masses that it's "good".
- Sell it at a loss
- Profit!
I need a new hobby. Competetive Tiddlywinks FTW!
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!" -- The Governator, when asked "What is best in life"
“Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of Defense with our peaceful methods and goals.”
-- Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961. (Emphasis mine).
"I'll never understand people. Even being one doesn't seem to help." -- Spider Robinson, Callahan's Key
"If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'?" -- RAH, ST
-- Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961. (Emphasis mine).
"I'll never understand people. Even being one doesn't seem to help." -- Spider Robinson, Callahan's Key
"If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'?" -- RAH, ST
#22
Autumnpuma
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Posted 20 February 2008 - 09:29 PM
Gold, master Yoda. Gold.
Don't rest in peace, Bruce. Raise Hell.
______
Give me a roof over my head, some food to eat and a fast car. That's all I need.
That's all I'll ever need.
----Robert Kubica
"Gilles was the last great driver. The rest of us are just a bunch of good professionals."
----Alain Prost
The only true sports are motor racing and mountain climbing; everything else is just a game.
TF1 Blogs: be afraid, be very, very afraid..........
______
Give me a roof over my head, some food to eat and a fast car. That's all I need.
That's all I'll ever need.
----Robert Kubica
"Gilles was the last great driver. The rest of us are just a bunch of good professionals."
----Alain Prost
The only true sports are motor racing and mountain climbing; everything else is just a game.
TF1 Blogs: be afraid, be very, very afraid..........
#23
Yoda McFly
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Posted 20 February 2008 - 09:41 PM
pumpdoc, on Feb 20 2008, 12:02 PM, said:
This statement, 'graph 2 of the article, pretty much sums it up:
Some AP Shill said:
Rather than a merger, the proposed deal, which could be announced as soon as Friday, would see some teams from the Champ Car World Series blended into the Indy Racing League's IndyCar Series, with immediate gains in car count and races.
Edited by Yoda McFly, 20 February 2008 - 09:41 PM.
“Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of Defense with our peaceful methods and goals.”
-- Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961. (Emphasis mine).
"I'll never understand people. Even being one doesn't seem to help." -- Spider Robinson, Callahan's Key
"If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'?" -- RAH, ST
-- Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961. (Emphasis mine).
"I'll never understand people. Even being one doesn't seem to help." -- Spider Robinson, Callahan's Key
"If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'?" -- RAH, ST
#24
Eric
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Posted 21 February 2008 - 12:51 AM
Yoda McFly, on Feb 20 2008, 04:41 PM, said:
TG has won. Where's my black armband?
But my opinion is subject to change, once we find out about the IPS/Atlantics situation. There's just too many good drivers and teams in Atlantics to cut the series, and since IPS has a more than full grid, that's probably what they'd do. That'll p**s me off. I say run both. We need to promote driver development, because Paul Tracy ain't getting any younger.
#25
Yoda McFly
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Posted 21 February 2008 - 03:43 AM
EKL, on Feb 20 2008, 04:51 PM, said:
TG should win. TG has the better series. I'm sorry, but TG has sponsors, he has races, he has stability. There's a tiny glimmer of hope and the popularity is rising there. TG ran his sport better and he won. That's how it goes. KK, GF, PG, and DP ran their sport into the ground. End of story. They couldn't cut it, and I, for one, don't want those dumbasses running my American open wheel.
But superior marketing != superior product, unless you're an Advertiser/Sponsor ... As for the rest of us, it's certainly a matter of taste and open to discussion, but my tolerance for ovals is extremely limited. (I explain my position on ovals in many other posts, won't rehash here...)
EKL, on Feb 20 2008, 04:51 PM, said:
But my opinion is subject to change, once we find out about the IPS/Atlantics situation. There's just too many good drivers and teams in Atlantics to cut the series, and since IPS has a more than full grid, that's probably what they'd do. That'll p**s me off. I say run both. We need to promote driver development, because Paul Tracy ain't getting any younger.
“Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of Defense with our peaceful methods and goals.”
-- Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961. (Emphasis mine).
"I'll never understand people. Even being one doesn't seem to help." -- Spider Robinson, Callahan's Key
"If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'?" -- RAH, ST
-- Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961. (Emphasis mine).
"I'll never understand people. Even being one doesn't seem to help." -- Spider Robinson, Callahan's Key
"If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'?" -- RAH, ST
#26
pumpdoc
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Posted 21 February 2008 - 01:58 PM
Look, let's face it Tony won because of the Indy 500 pure and simple. Sponsers want to be seen in that race, end of, as long as the King has that race he's the lord.
"Moving to Montana soon, gonna be a dentill floss tycoon"
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
#27
pabloh20
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Posted 21 February 2008 - 04:46 PM
pumpdoc, on Feb 21 2008, 01:58 PM, said:
Look, let's face it Tony won because of the Indy 500 pure and simple. Sponsers want to be seen in that race, end of, as long as the King has that race he's the lord.
It's because you flit from post to post like a puppy in a room full of people, causing merriment wherever you go. And shagging their leg - Medilloni
Rules are written for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men
Rules are written for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men
#28
Eric
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Posted 21 February 2008 - 11:58 PM
pumpdoc, on Feb 21 2008, 08:58 AM, said:
Look, let's face it Tony won because of the Indy 500 pure and simple. Sponsers want to be seen in that race, end of, as long as the King has that race he's the lord.
Either way, neither are doing that well. TG will manage the series better. Not sure about the racing. I liked most of what I saw in the IRL last year, and I really liked the few races I watched from the Lola era of Champ Car (after Greg Moore's death, I've never really watched CART or CCWS), but other than San Jose, Las Vegas, and Cleveland, the Panoz era wasn't too exciting. Long Beach, Mexico, the European races, etc all were boring. But I grew up on stock cars and the Indy 500, so I guess I'm just an oval racing guy, but def don't get me wrong that I dislike road racing, because I don't. I like good oval racing (IRL, WoO, ARCA), but not boring oval racing (NASCAR 2004-2007), and good road racing (ALMS was so badass last year!), but not boring road racing. I like all racing that's got action, and my first race was the 89 Indy 500 (I don't care how un-American it is, GO EMMO!), so I got spoiled and expected every race to be like that.
I think that adding 3-5 road courses to the IRL would be a good thing, though. We need balance. The ideal schedule, for me, would be, in no particular order:
Mosport
Mont-Tremblant
Watkins Glen (the full course)
Mexico City
Laguna Seca
Long Beach
Road America
Road Atlanta
Las Vegas (street circuit)
Mid-Ohio
St. Petersburg (as in the IRL circuit in Florida, and not the Bernie circuit in Russia)
Indianpolis Motor Speedway
Texas Motor Speedway
Pocono Raceway
Richmond International Raceway
Phoenix International Raceway
Michigan International Speedway
The Milwaukee Mile
Chicagoland Speedway
Sanair Speedway
California Speedway
Rockingham Speedway (in Britainland, not the one in NC, but the one in NC is pretty cool, too)
11 and 11. Why? Because it adds to 22. Fireball Roberts, Bobby Allison, and Bobby Labonte, among others, all drove 22.
#29
pumpdoc
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- Pit Crew
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- 8,586 posts
Do not pizz me off
- Location:San Marcos, California
- Interests:racing,golf, guns and radio controled boats
Posted 22 February 2008 - 05:21 PM
"Moving to Montana soon, gonna be a dentill floss tycoon"
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
#30
pumpdoc
-
- Pit Crew
-
- 8,586 posts
Do not pizz me off
- Location:San Marcos, California
- Interests:racing,golf, guns and radio controled boats
Posted 22 February 2008 - 10:19 PM
http://auto-racing.s...tion-announced/
The deed is done, twill be interesting to see how it will shake out.
CART/Champcar
The deed is done, twill be interesting to see how it will shake out.
CART/Champcar
"Moving to Montana soon, gonna be a dentill floss tycoon"
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
Livestrong
Forza Ferrari!!!!!
Forza Italiano!!!!!!!!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"------Adam--Mythbusters
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