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Champcar

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http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news;_ylt=A...p&type=lgns

Another clear indication that it's on its last legs. One major hold up to the merge is the Japan race, that must be rescheduled. Long Beach is the second crown jewel in American open wheel racing just behind the Indy 500.

I hate to see King Tony win, but he needs this to happen or both series will fold.

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http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news;_ylt=A...p&type=lgns

I hate to see King Tony win, but he needs this to happen or both series will fold.

Absolutely.

Was shocked to see such an empty field in both series when I watched last year.

Also think they need to sort out the global TV access on this. Its very limited certainly in UK - amazing considering Dan Wheldon and Dario Franchitti are British - hardly had any media impact over here. Yet when Nigel Mansell raced in CART, there was daytime prime-time TV coverage on leading channels.

Don't know if this is the same in other parts of the world - I know that both series were popular in Australia, Brazil and Mexico.

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Yes - CART in the Mansell and JV days was huge here in NZ, but as soon as the split happened it just disappeared, even with Scott Dixon doing well. ESPN still carries the IRL live in NZ. The only Champcar race we see is Gold Coast Indy 300...and what a boring race that always is....

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Further proof that clever marketing and enough money will always beat out a superior product...

Remember the large role that Honduh played in destroying CART in the first place ...

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What will Happen to all the teams like Newman Haas and Team Australia?

And Talanted drivers like Katherine Legge?

All I can say with a smug on my face is Sebastien Bourdais couldn't have picked it finer to come to F1.

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I think Bourdais made an excellent decision to move and probably killed ChampCar off.

I liked Will Power(have seen him in real life) and Juston Wilson but only becuase he was British and I knew him from F1.

Must admit when I watche it on TV a couple of times, got a little bored.

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Gurney's CART white paper:

Over the past 3 or 4 years I've had conversations with almost all of the car owners and team directors. I've had talks with drivers, with sanctioning body directors, with track owners and promoters and big sponsors and fans and other interested parties. Generally there is agreement that something is wrong with our sport -

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Making TG the hero of this would make sense, and since I usually am pro-TG, I'll take a different side today.

Champ Car is having a communication malfunction, and the promoters have no idea if they'll have a race or not, and if they do, will it be CCWS or IRL? The teams don't know, no one knows.

TG picked a perfect time to make the offer, and I'm sure it was intentional. If they don't merge for 2008, he's already ruined the entire 2008 Champ Car season anyway by causing mass confusion and making Champ Car p**s everyone off.

It's a win-win situation for TG. If he gets Champ Car, he's got his complete control. If he doesn't, he at least ruined anything that was left for 2008, and Champ Car will fold and TG wil get them anyway.

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This is one of the bests texts I've ever read about CCWS and IRL merge.

EKL, you're right when you say that Tony George is already destroying the 2008 Champ Car Season. It's sad, because CCWS is about to bring some "rejecteds" from europe like Montagny or Bernoldi (who was racing in Brazil)... Champ Car could have Doornbos at the grid again too... This situation is really a shame.

CCWS have a much better car, I think that the drivers are more or less at the same level, and IRL have Indianapolis. They should get the best things from each Series, but all I see is IRL taking over the CCWS with those old Dallaras and Tony George looking like a hero... The same man that messed it all up 13 years ago...

I like both IRL and CCWS, but I want a real merge, not IRL taking over... What looks to be the thing the american media wants.

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This is one of the bests texts I've ever read about CCWS and IRL merge.

EKL, you're right when you say that Tony George is already destroying the 2008 Champ Car Season. It's sad, because CCWS is about to bring some "rejecteds" from europe like Montagny or Bernoldi (who was racing in Brazil)... Champ Car could have Doornbos at the grid again too... This situation is really a shame.

CCWS have a much better car, I think that the drivers are more or less at the same level, and IRL have Indianapolis. They should get the best things from each Series, but all I see is IRL taking over the CCWS with those old Dallaras and Tony George looking like a hero... The same man that messed it all up 13 years ago...

I like both IRL and CCWS, but I want a real merge, not IRL taking over... What looks to be the thing the american media wants.

I can see why you want a "real merge," but I prefer an IRL takeover. The Panoz ruined the racing, in my opinion, and also was unsafe at slow speeds. The push-to-pass isn't my favorite thing, either. I think they should have a completely new chassis, as I don't like either, but I like the Dallara-Honda more, and while a completely new chassis would be keep it even for all teams, it might end up too costly for everyone, because there are a lot of spare Dallaras lying around with Vision and Penske to give out to CCWS teams, while there aren't any DP01s.

I feel Tony George isn't the best to run American open wheel, but he is 9324903284 times better than the Three Amoebas who run CCWS. Those three aren't even on the same page with eachother, and they single-handedly drove CART to the ground with this Champ Car product. Both of them combined ruined it, and I feel TG has brought the IRL to a more CART-like series with more competition, sponsors, attendance, and TV ratings.

However, I have something to ask everyone: no one has talked about it, but what happens to the Indy Pro Series and Champ Car Atlantics? No one bothered to mention that in all this talk of a merge, but I'd hate to see some of the Atlantics top talent like Bomarito, Hinchcliffe, Cameron, Skerlong, etc out of rides because the two big series merged. IPS already has a huge and diverse grid, and I just don't see the room for the Atlantic teams, or the money for the Atlantic teams to switch. That, to me, sucks.

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I'm a Panoz fan! I think they are the most beautiful open-wheel cars in the world right now, and they are pretty fast at road courses. Of course not compared to a F1, but definitely when compared to an A1GP or even a GP2.

What I call a "real merge", is an entire union between the two series. Dallara and Panoz making the chassis, Cosworth and Honda the engines. Maybe a schedule with 20 races, 5 road courses, 5 street races and 10 ovals... Or something like that... But I believe it's far from possible today, maybe in 2 or 3 years if the merge happens soon enough...

I agree with you when you say that it would be necessary a new car, it looks like IRL will launch a new car at 2009 or 2010, I don't know (that's an IRL fans speculation)... But if it is to use the old cars, I preffer the DP01. Specially at road courses where the Dallaras just don't have the speed. By the way, I think they were faster some years ago even at ovals. Maybe use the DP01 at road courses and street circuits, and the Dallaras at ovals would be a solution, but I think it would be very expensive for the teams...

I think the idea behind the Champ Cars is better then the IRL one, but I agree with you when you define Kalkhoven and Forsythe as amoebas. They don't know how to bring sponsors, attention, anything to the series... It ends up wasting all Champ Car's potencial. At the other hand I don't trust Tony George and maybe the only solution is the teams takking over both series, I don't know...

We'll hear a lot about this until both seasons kicks off.

About Champ Car Atlantics and the Indy Pro Series... The only thing I've heard, from a IRL fanatic, is that the IPS would become a door to the Atlantics. But it doesn't make sense to me when Raphael Matos just became Atlantics 2007 Champion and is to race at the IPS in 2008. In the end, I have no idea of what is going to happen too.

Edited by E.Wheldon

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I'm a Panoz fan! I think they are the most beautiful open-wheel cars in the world right now, and they are pretty fast at road courses. Of course not compared to a F1, but definitely when compared to an A1GP or even a GP2.

What I call a "real merge", is an entire union between the two series. Dallara and Panoz making the chassis, Cosworth and Honda the engines. Maybe a schedule with 20 races, 5 road courses, 5 street races and 10 ovals... Or something like that... But I believe it's far from possible today, maybe in 2 or 3 years if the merge happens soon enough...

I agree with you when you say that it would be necessary a new car, it looks like IRL will launch a new car at 2009 or 2010, I don't know (that's an IRL fans speculation)... But if it is to use the old cars, I preffer the DP01. Specially at road courses where the Dallaras just don't have the speed. By the way, I think they were faster some years ago even at ovals. Maybe use the DP01 at road courses and street circuits, and the Dallaras at ovals would be a solution, but I think it would be very expensive for the teams...

I think the idea behind the Champ Cars is better then the IRL one, but I agree with you when you define Kalkhoven and Forsythe as amoebas. They don't know how to bring sponsors, attention, anything to the series... It ends up wasting all Champ Car's potencial. At the other hand I don't trust Tony George and maybe the only solution is the teams takking over both series, I don't know...

We'll hear a lot about this until both seasons kicks off.

About Champ Car Atlantics and the Indy Pro Series... The only thing I've heard, from a IRL fanatic, is that the IPS would become a door to the Atlantics. But it doesn't make sense to me when Raphael Matos just became Atlantics 2007 Champion and is to race at the IPS in 2008. In the end, I have no idea of what is going to happen too.

I agree the DP01 looks better and is faster, but the quality of racing is better with the Dallara, which I feel should have an emphasis on it because CART had an amazing product, and I feel IRL's product is more similar to CART's than CCWS is.

As long as Brian France of NASCAR isn't running it, I'll be okay. Tony Cotman wasn't too bad, and he's in the IRL now, so I think the two Tony's can get the job done.

And there's always one factor to consider with TG: there's no USGP in 2008, meaning that's $15mil he isn't spending. Can you say Dallaras for N/H/L, Walker Racing, PKV, etc? When the USGP first got cancelled, I said it was good for the IRL, but I never would've guessed it could lead to this...

All I want is unification for the 92nd Running of the Indianapolis 500-Mile Race. Let's bump on Bump Day, boys and girls.

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It's Over

One thing I want to point in that article, while there are 16 confirmed IRL entries, the number could be around 18-21, meaning with the addition of 8 CCWS teams, we could have a 29-car grid. I'll say it'll be in the 25-car range. Badass!

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Well thats perhaps the best thing that could of happened. The split did nothing but damage open wheel racing in the states - and at a time when CART was much more entertaining to watch than F1. I hope they can iron out all the creases and turn the series back into what it used to be.

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Don't know... Robin Miller said that the Champ Car bankruptcy would happen one week ago... I'm not saying it's not going to happen, but for sure he is one person who really wants to see it happenning (if not THE PERSON). He have hurt feelings with Kalkhoven who kicked him out Champ Car!

I think it's really going to happen (the merge), but I'll not believe untill other person says it.

Of course, everyone had enough of that anual IRL X Champ Car talk that happens every year... It just makes people don't care about both series... So it's really better for the teams, the drivers, the sponsors... Everyone!

At the end just doesn't matter the way it happened, just the fact that it did. I'm waiting for an official confirmation.

Edited by E.Wheldon

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"The way it happened" does matter ... King George has won; the Revolution has been put down.

Anyone that honestly believes that the end product is going to be any different than the Injury league is delusional.

Yes, the long-term result might be better than that, but the simple fact is that a man with more money than god and that changes his story and his promises more often than a politician; that is in bed with an engine manufacturer that helped to destroy CART in the first place, and that still has some unholy behind-the-scenes alliance with the France family, has won...

I'm not saying that two series was good; one series is necessary. As a lover of openness, freedom and choice, however, I think that we, as racing fans, have lost another choice.

(Here, Yoda, have some Kool-Aid, it'll help)...

And what happens with the CCWS ladder series? Gonna fold them in, too?

Unification is good. Unification under the thumb of King George is bad.

Edited by Yoda McFly

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I preffer Champ Car, and I am not a Tony George fan too...

But I think that an unification like the one that's happening is better then no unification at all...

Seriously... With Champ Car actual situation and IRL engine supply contract with Honda comming to an end soon... If they stay splitted, things will become even worse... If it's possible.

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"The way it happened" does matter ... King George has won; the Revolution has been put down.

Anyone that honestly believes that the end product is going to be any different than the Injury league is delusional.

Yes, the long-term result might be better than that, but the simple fact is that a man with more money than god and that changes his story and his promises more often than a politician; that is in bed with an engine manufacturer that helped to destroy CART in the first place, and that still has some unholy behind-the-scenes alliance with the France family, has won...

I'm not saying that two series was good; one series is necessary. As a lover of openness, freedom and choice, however, I think that we, as racing fans, have lost another choice.

(Here, Yoda, have some Kool-Aid, it'll help)...

And what happens with the CCWS ladder series? Gonna fold them in, too?

Unification is good. Unification under the thumb of King George is bad.

This is why I study at the feet of the master. Word.

I've heard on the radio this morning that a unification deal may be announced today. I have a glimmer of hope that we will again see the CART of old where open-wheel, international racing is done on speedways, superspeedways, street circuits and race courses. A champion of that series would be a master many disciplines. That is my hope.

My concern is about the Vanderbuilt Cup. What will happen to that? Will it go into an auto museum in Vegas? Perhaps a dusty closet of a rich man?

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N.B.: I'm writing this as I actually post the rant below. The rant below was started about three hours ago, and written in fits and starts, because that pesky 'work' thing keeps getting in the way. I haven't had the opportunity to read the "latest news", specifically as posted by Bruce directly above, but I will. Believe me, I won't likely shut up about this for a while. Good thing for all of you that I'm going to be out of town and likely away from a PC for most of Thursday, all of Friday to Sunday, and most of Monday... :mf_tongue:

------ Actual message follows ------

I should point out that my earlier post was made in haste, rushing to get out the door. Plus, I'm sick as a dog, and have to fly tomorrow, which is going to be like 8 hours of having knives stuck in my ears...

Anyway, to try to clarify and amplify:

Yes, any unification has the potential to be better than no unification.

Does anyone remember the circumstances under which the IRL was created? And the statements that TG made at the time? Remember how it was to be an "all-oval", "all-North-American" series? "To give American drivers a better chance" at success in a "major" series? <sarcasm> Hmm... Yep that's definitely how it turned out. </sarcasm>

Does anyone wonder about the fact that the vast majority of major paved ovals (by that I mean paved, and long enough to hold a "tier 1" event, so call it a mile or better) in the US are owned by ISC? (You all know that ISC is controlled by the France family, right?) And did you notice how, as the schism wore on, CART/CCWS lost more and more of its oval venues? While the IRL started racing at traditional CART venues ... (Although, IIRC and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, the record for the fastest-ever 500 mile race still belongs to Jimmy Vasser...) I don't have to point out who owns the road courses that the Winston Cup runs on, and that were the IRL's first forays into road racing, do I?

Does anyone remember Cosworth building "GM"-badged (Olds? W/EtF they were) engines because of the Japanese engines' superiority, and the potential for embarrassment brought about by a 'Murrican builder not being competitive in the "All-American" series and the "Great American Race" ...?

Can anyone prove to me that any top-tier Honda or Toyota IRL team ever actually paid for a lump?

Does anyone remember when Honda worked out a way to get a few more pounds of boost in CART ... and promptly got slapped down...?

Does anyone honestly believe that the IRL would still be around without Momma Hulman's "Everfull Purse of Profligate Spending". (Hmm, next time I run a D&D campaign, I need to give one of those to a player ... :naughty: )

I guess my point is this: Tony George is a 165-pound sack of excrement. He and most of the people around him don't give a rat's arse about the racing, the drivers or the fans; it's about building their empires and crushing the opposition. That's the way it's been since '96 ("Ha Ha! I have the track you want, so screw you, hippies, play my way or don't play!"). That's the Honda (and 'Yota, tho' they're not technically currently in the picture) way: spend whatever is necessary to crush the competition. I'm glad that it hasn't worked for either giant in F1, but it's been hell for American racing.

All hail our new corporate overlords... How long until the France family buys "the open wheel operation" from the Hulman/George family? (Remember, you read it here first).

I, for one, like having choices in my life. I find the manner in which TG appears to have won to be similar to the Microsoft Method of Market Domination: it doesn't matter if your product is inferior or irrelevant, just follow these three, easy steps:

  1. Market the hell out of it, while convincing the masses that it's "good".
  2. Sell it at a loss
  3. Profit!

Look at my post history, and you'll see that I've never been against a merger of equals. What has happened, and what makes me sick about this deal is that that is precisely what did not happen. From what I've seen so far ... The CCWS teams get to join the IRL with a free car and engine, and some incentive money. How is this anything but an unconditional win for TG?

I need a new hobby. Competetive Tiddlywinks FTW!

:wacko:

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!" -- The Governator, when asked "What is best in life"

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http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news;_ylt=A...p&type=lgns

The latest news.........................

This statement, 'graph 2 of the article, pretty much sums it up:

Rather than a merger, the proposed deal, which could be announced as soon as Friday, would see some teams from the Champ Car World Series blended into the Indy Racing League's IndyCar Series, with immediate gains in car count and races.

TG has won. Where's my black armband?

Edited by Yoda McFly

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TG has won. Where's my black armband?

TG should win. TG has the better series. I'm sorry, but TG has sponsors, he has races, he has stability. There's a tiny glimmer of hope and the popularity is rising there. TG ran his sport better and he won. That's how it goes. KK, GF, PG, and DP ran their sport into the ground. End of story. They couldn't cut it, and I, for one, don't want those dumbasses running my American open wheel.

But my opinion is subject to change, once we find out about the IPS/Atlantics situation. There's just too many good drivers and teams in Atlantics to cut the series, and since IPS has a more than full grid, that's probably what they'd do. That'll p**s me off. I say run both. We need to promote driver development, because Paul Tracy ain't getting any younger.

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TG should win. TG has the better series. I'm sorry, but TG has sponsors, he has races, he has stability. There's a tiny glimmer of hope and the popularity is rising there. TG ran his sport better and he won. That's how it goes. KK, GF, PG, and DP ran their sport into the ground. End of story. They couldn't cut it, and I, for one, don't want those dumbasses running my American open wheel.

This is the point at which we must agree to disagree. Yes, TG has managed his series better (for the motives and through the methods I mentioned above). Yes, first the CART board and then the Gang of Three managed to not run their series well. (The argument could be made that they didn't have the nearly limitless funds, but that's moot at this point).

But superior marketing != superior product, unless you're an Advertiser/Sponsor ... As for the rest of us, it's certainly a matter of taste and open to discussion, but my tolerance for ovals is extremely limited. (I explain my position on ovals in many other posts, won't rehash here...)

But my opinion is subject to change, once we find out about the IPS/Atlantics situation. There's just too many good drivers and teams in Atlantics to cut the series, and since IPS has a more than full grid, that's probably what they'd do. That'll p**s me off. I say run both. We need to promote driver development, because Paul Tracy ain't getting any younger.

On this point, we are in total agreement...

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