50 replies to this topic

[rodders47]

Can some of you Guru's explain to me the way that the teams may recouver and use this Kenetic Energy Recouvery system as proposed for next year?

I understand that it will be only associated with the REAR brakes, not the front, so what can one achieve from this heat input?

I have had this idea that maybe by using the Gas that is used in Air Conditioners, with it's expansion rate  etc that this maybe a way to "power up " a flywheel !!!

Edited by rodders47, 16 April 2008 - 06:56 AM.

[aussief1]

This is probably the best description that I can find. I was reading in a week or two ago. Complicated stuff.

Quote

The mechanical KERS system utilises flywheel technology developed by Flybrid Systems to recover and store a moving vehicle�s kinetic energy which is otherwise wasted when the vehicle is decelerated. The energy is received from the driveline through the Torotrak CVT, engineered and supplied by Xtrac, as the vehicle decelerates, and is subsequently released back into the driveline, again through the CVT, as the vehicle accelerates. The FIA has defined the amount of energy recovery for the 2009 season as 400kJ per lap giving the driver an extra 80hp over a period of 6.67 seconds.

Compared to the alternative of electrical-battery systems, the mechanical KERS system provides a significantly more compact, efficient, lighter and environmentally-friendly solution.

The components within each variator include an input disc and an opposing output disc. Each disc is formed so that the gap created between the discs is �doughnut� shaped; that is, the toroidal surfaces on each disc form the toroidal cavity.

Two or three rollers are located inside each toroidal cavity and are positioned so that the outer edge of each roller is in contact with the toroidal surfaces of the input disc and output disc.

As the input disc rotates, power is transferred via the rollers to the output disc, which rotates in the opposite direction to the input disc.

The angle of the roller determines the ratio of the Variator and therefore a change in the angle of the roller results in a change in the ratio. So, with the roller at a small radius (near the centre) on the input disc and at a large radius (near the edge) on the output disc the Variator produces a “low” ratio. Moving the roller across the discs to a large radius at the input disc and corresponding low radius at the output produces the “high” ratio and provides the full ratio sweep in a smooth, continuous manner.

The transfer of power through the contacting surfaces of the discs and rollers takes place via a microscopic film of specially developed long-molecule traction fluid. This fluid separates the rolling surfaces of the discs and rollers at their contact points.

The input and output discs are clamped together within each variator unit. The traction fluid in the contact points between the discs and rollers become highly viscous under this clamping pressure, increasing its �stickiness� and creating an efficient mechanism for transferring power between the rotating discs and rollers.

Source: http://www.f1fanatic...ology-revealed/

[rodders47]

love you closing pic mate :-)  as for the rest well is informative to say the least

[David Adams]

Wow, that is a fantastically technical article.

Im sure glad I don't attend seminars on KERS now!

[HandyNZL]

Should be investigating hydrogen cars running off water, not frigging low percentage power from braking...stupid FIA...

[Jez]

HandyNZL, on Apr 16 2008, 05:33 PM, said:

Should be investigating hydrogen cars running off water, not frigging low percentage power from braking...stupid FIA...

But not all F1 fans are into water sports Handy

[DOF_power]

"HandyNZL" said:

Should be investigating hydrogen cars running off water, not frigging low percentage power from braking...stupid FIA...

What Mosley thinking about the future, restoring innovation to F1. Ain't gonna happen.
There are Wankels and Quasiturbine engines running on compressed air, BMW V12s running on hydrongen, but nothing's happening. Now that would be something.

[Argento Reloaded]

HandyNZL, on Apr 16 2008, 04:33 AM, said:

Should be investigating hydrogen cars running off water, not frigging low percentage power from braking...stupid FIA...

Those kiwis! We are talking about F1 not America�s Cup!

[DOF_power]

I don't why people here are so against new types of fuels and technologies. F1 should pioneer this not the Le Mans ACO boys.

[Eric]

All series should run alternate fuel sources for the pure purpose of showing that you can still get performance out of them, and to promote them to a world that needs a change in that area.  I'm also pro-4 bangers in F1, for the same reason that a lot of people have the misconception that less cylinders means you won't be able to go over 12 mph.

The series that needs the biggest change in fuel, is, of course, the IRL.  E98 Ethanol is the stupidest idea.  Save the Ethanol for drinking (E100 is also called moonshine, if you didn't know), let's use something that doesn't require 1.2 gallons of gas to make 1 gallon of it.

As for KERS, no comment.  I wouldn't understand a word of that article.  Will it improve the racing?  No?  Then I don't care.

[aussief1]

Eric, on Apr 17 2008, 06:58 AM, said:

As for KERS, no comment.  I wouldn't understand a word of that article.  Will it improve the racing?  No?  Then I don't care.

It may improve the racing due to the fact that the extra 80bhp will only last for 6 seconds. This will be used like the power button or push to pass button in other series I should imagine.

[Eric]

aussief1, on Apr 16 2008, 05:45 PM, said:

It may improve the racing due to the fact that the extra 80bhp will only last for 6 seconds. This will be used like the power button or push to pass button in other series I should imagine.

I hate P2P, to be honest.  Manufactured racing is stupid, but I guess anything is better than what we got now.

[DOF_power]

Turboed F1s the boost button coupled to electronic fuel control, CART Indycar had the overtaking gear.

[aussief1]

Eric, on Apr 17 2008, 07:48 AM, said:

I hate P2P, to be honest.  Manufactured racing is stupid, but I guess anything is better than what we got now.

I do agree with you. I'm not a fan of the "Push to Pass" idea either, but I can see that it has some merit, especially in modern F1. The 2009 reduced aero will also help with improved racing.

[Eric]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Apr 16 2008, 05:53 PM, said:

CART Indycar had the overtaking gear.

Who cares what it had?  Every racing series should be unique; if they were all the same we'd only need to have one of them.

[HandyNZL]

Eric, on Apr 17 2008, 01:31 PM, said:

Who cares what it had?  Every racing series should be unique; if they were all the same we'd only need to have one of them.

And it shall be called "The Highlander Series" because there can be only one!!!! Now, gimme the prize!!

Edited by HandyNZL, 17 April 2008 - 03:08 AM.

[rodders47]

was hoping for some HIGH TECH Ideas response to this question :-)

[DOF_power]

aussief1, on Apr 17 2008, 12:58 AM, said:

I do agree with you. I'm not a fan of the "Push to Pass" idea either, but I can see that it has some merit, especially in modern F1. The 2009 reduced aero will also help with improved racing.

2009 changes will be more then just aero rules. Cars will be wider and have slicks just like until 1998. The hope is that the 50% loss of of overall downforce will change the balance and make the car ground effect in nature as all this loss would come from the upperbody;
right now underbody ground effects is �40% downforce and upperbody is �60%.

[HandyNZL]

rodders47, on Apr 17 2008, 07:16 PM, said:

was hoping for some HIGH TECH Ideas response to this question :-)

ya what?

[Eric]

rodders47, on Apr 17 2008, 03:16 AM, said:

was hoping for some HIGH TECH Ideas response to this question :-)

High tech?  You mean like Windows 2.0, airbags, and cassette tapes?

[Quiet One]

Eric, on Apr 17 2008, 07:08 PM, said:

High tech?  You mean like Windows 2.0, airbags, and cassette tapes?

Let me grab my betacam recorder!

[aussief1]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Apr 17 2008, 05:20 PM, said:

2009 changes will be more then just aero rules. Cars will be wider and have slicks just like until 1998. The hope is that the 50% loss of of overall downforce will change the balance and make the car ground effect in nature as all this loss would come from the upperbody;
right now underbody ground effects is �40% downforce and upperbody is �60%.

Yeah ofcourse, all the changes will have an effect to ultimately improve the quality of the racing.

Quiet One, on Apr 18 2008, 08:21 AM, said:

Let me grab my betacam recorder!

[DOF_power]

Well maybe, maybe not.

If the underbody downforce won't overcome wake turbulence, it means not much will improve. Then if the 2009 chassis will be too stiff for the lower downforce things could get even worse.

[Rainmaster]

How much energy can Max Mosley generate by administering ze punishment?

You see we need to think outside the box.

[Eric]

Rainmaster, on Apr 18 2008, 05:48 PM, said:

How much energy can Max Mosley generate by administering ze punishment?

You see we need to think outside the box.

One more "ze punishment" joke from anyone and I'm leaving for a month until this is forgotten.  Man, talk about overplayed.

[rodders47]

what I was hoping for was more of what "Aussie F1" posted not all the other crap but serious input on HOW the teams will achieve KER?

[Rainmaster]

Eric, on Apr 19 2008, 02:51 AM, said:

One more "ze punishment" joke from anyone and I'm leaving for a month until this is forgotten.  Man, talk about overplayed.

Looks like you can't take ze punishment Eric. You will be sorely missed

[aussief1]

Schu supports KERS introduction

Michael Schumacher has given his support to Formula 1�s attempts to move towards a more environmentally-friendly future, starting with the introduction of KERS technology next year.

Teams are currently in the process of developing kinetic energy recovery systems which will be allowed in the sport from 2009, with the devices designed to recover and store energy from braking which can then be used as a power boost.

The introduction of KERS is due to be followed by more road-relevant and greener technologies over the next decade and seven-time world champion Schumacher says the benefits are clear.

�In Formula 1 we start next year with an energy saving braking system,� he told The Times newspaper.

�In this respect Formula 1 can be very important because the development time you have in Formula 1 is so short.

�[Ferrari�s] road car department and other road car companies will benefit hugely from it, and the environment will as well.�

Formula 1 has been criticised in some quarters in the past for not doing enough for the environment, but Schumacher says the sport has now put plans in place to react to the world�s climate problems.

�People say F1 should do more but you cannot change the world in one day,� he said.

�It�s not possible.

�You have to do it in steps that are achievable and you have to understand the problem.

�I think that it has been understood, this issue, and Formula 1 is reacting to it.�

Source: Schu supports KERS introduction

[DOF_power]

>
^ Well good, finally a driver that support progress as opposed to bi***ing-winners-moaners like Prost, Senna, Mansell, Villeneuve, Alesi, Hakkinen.

[Jez]

And then Ferrari go and say this- Ferrari Critical of Kers