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Kati

Renault Under Investigation?

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Biased crap. Next?

that's all you can say about this post? he is telling the truth and you the one asking for evidence call it crap, I can see who's the one biased here. :naughty:

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The scant data...ay, there's the rub. That is what undermines the whole issue.With the data available, they could have as easily decided that it was Ron Dennis to blame for all this. With so little data available and a lot of vague generalities, it is up to you to choose your personal Mr.X. The most annoying one for me is where was witness X during the events. Placement is essential though we have no idea. Was he present at the meeting? Why nobody else mentions him? Allegedly, it was when confronted with X's sayings that Symonds recognized his part to Renault investigators. But we have no idea what exactly X said. Even the indirect hints we have about what he said speak of he being told by Pat that there was a meeting, so my assumption is that the guy was not present at the meeting and is just somebody Pat told about the crash plan. In that case, he is worthless as a witness against Flavio. If he was present at the meeting, Briatore knows who he is and that X destroyed his career. If Briatore accused Piquet of being homosexual for spilling the beans, wouldn't you expect to go around yelling X's name to the top of his lungs now? What does Flavio has to lose? He can ruin X's career too and get even.

Why don't you better think that giving details about the whistle-blower canfession would revail who he really is, let's just say saying something like "when Pat told that NPJ would crash he car in order for me to win the race I rejected right away, I thought they would not do it until I actually saw the crash" that kind of info would revail the witness X identity (we all know who is it anyway) but we don't really need the eveidence as we are not jurors, lawyer, don't work for FIA not even for Renault so we don't really need to see the evidence and we don't need to know who that WB is, of course we want to know but they are not forced to give us any information, I saw document with the title "private and confidential, not to be publication" but is was made public anyway but there some stuff that they may have chose not to made puclic and they have every right to do it.

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Why don't you better think that giving details about the whistle-blower canfession would revail who he really is, let's just say saying something like "when Pat told that NPJ would crash he car in order for me to win the race I rejected right away, I thought they would not do it until I actually saw the crash" that kind of info would revail the witness X identity (we all know who is it anyway) but we don't really need the eveidence as we are not jurors, lawyer, don't work for FIA not even for Renault so we don't really need to see the evidence and we don't need to know who that WB is, of course we want to know but they are not forced to give us any information, I saw document with the title "private and confidential, not to be publication" but is was made public anyway but there some stuff that they may have chose not to made puclic and they have every right to do it.

There is a difference between "debating the case" and "trying to wind up the Quiet One". As long as you keep doing the latter I see no point on wasting much time.

If you want a more thoroughful reply, though (not that you need it, because you KNEW who was to blame even BEFORE the crash), hiding FA's identity would not be so easy. If Alonso was witness X, then Briatore has won. You do not need to be a brilliant lawyer to notice that FIA said that X knew about it. FIA also said that Alonso did not know it. FIA knows who X is so if X was Alonso, FIA would have purposedly lied. Briatore could say they lied to cause him a damage. End of story.

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Oh, is Alonso still driving an F1 car?

I thought he wouldn't find a team after that story about McLaren spying Ferrari or something like that.

Jeeeez... He must be the cleverest driver ever.

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There is a difference between "debating the case" and "trying to wind up the Quiet One". As long as you keep doing the latter I see no point on wasting much time.

If you want a more thoroughful reply, though (not that you need it, because you KNEW who was to blame even BEFORE the crash), hiding FA's identity would not be so easy. If Alonso was witness X, then Briatore has won. You do not need to be a brilliant lawyer to notice that FIA said that X knew about it. FIA also said that Alonso did not know it. FIA knows who X is so if X was Alonso, FIA would have purposedly lied. Briatore could say they lied to cause him a damage. End of story.

Probably I missed that part but what I read from FIA is that he was Not Involved which is different to not know it, just rememeber that X was contacted by PS and this guy said that he rejected the idea, just think who in the team would reject an idea brought by the two bigest bosses in the team? the onlyone who can come up with something like that is Alonso.

And I never said I knew it before the crash but you can see I've been constant about the knowledge of Alonso about this case.

And about Fb knowing who X is, of course he knows, but if he say who is it he will just be confensing that everything is like FIA said, how could he knows who this X is if there was no X or this crashgate didn't happen the way FIA, Renault, Piquet, PS and "Alonso" said, FB is going to remain salint about this X because just the fact that he point at who is he will be incriminatory to him, if you don't want to continue this topic it is Ok to me but so far you can see that I am not he only one who think it is Alonso.

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Oh, is Alonso still driving an F1 car?

I thought he wouldn't find a team after that story about McLaren spying Ferrari or something like that.

Jeeeez... He must be the cleverest driver ever.

maybe he is, actually I think he is a very clever guy but I don't like the way he act when is not in the car, besides that he could be my favorite driver.

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Probably I missed that part but what I read from FIA is that he was Not Involved which is different to not know it, just rememeber that X was contacted by PS and this guy said that he rejected the idea, just think who in the team would reject an idea brought by the two bigest bosses in the team? the onlyone who can come up with something like that is Alonso.

I give you it gets confusing, they say different things in every paragraph in both the evidence dossier and the decision. On paragraph 66 of the FIA's decisin they say: The WMSC has not been presented with any evidence whatsoever suggesting that Mr.Alonso knew of the crash plan or knowingly assisted in its execution and the WWMSC accepts Mr.Alonso's evidence"

As for who in the team would reject an idea brought by the two biggest bosses? Again, any Senior Manager, any racing engineer and, of course,Nando. I disagree with my bosses (and even Senior Management) despite my position being more fragile than any of the Renault members.

And I never said I knew it before the crash but you can see I've been constant about the knowledge of Alonso about this case.

And about Fb knowing who X is, of course he knows, but if he say who is it he will just be confensing that everything is like FIA said, how could he knows who this X is if there was no X or this crashgate didn't happen the way FIA, Renault, Piquet, PS and "Alonso" said, FB is going to remain salint about this X because just the fact that he point at who is he will be incriminatory to him, if you don't want to continue this topic it is Ok to me but so far you can see that I am not he only one who think it is Alonso.

I don't rule out Alonso as being X completely. It is impossible to rule anybody out, not even you. I just gave very thoroughly many reasons on why it is unlikely that Alonso and X are the same person. I don't mind discussing this if people makes sensible points (much like Muzza did) or like you on this last post. But if all you will say is "I know it was the monobrow :naughty:" in reply to a point I made after spending some effort reading the documents and arguments then of course I won't disucss in those terms.

As for FB, he could (and should) disclose who he thinks is X in order to discredit him. That does not prove that the incident happened at all. Those are two independent things. If somebody mentioned a witness to blame you for homicide you didn't commit, you would try to find out who he was because you know he lied. And if you knew who that witness was you would reveal who he was immediately and start working on the reasons he had to come up with an erroneous testimony against you.

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I give you it gets confusing, they say different things in every paragraph in both the evidence dossier and the decision. On paragraph 66 of the FIA's decisin they say: The WMSC has not been presented with any evidence whatsoever suggesting that Mr.Alonso knew of the crash plan or knowingly assisted in its execution and the WWMSC accepts Mr.Alonso's evidence"

As for who in the team would reject an idea brought by the two biggest bosses? Again, any Senior Manager, any racing engineer and, of course,Nando. I disagree with my bosses (and even Senior Management) despite my position being more fragile than any of the Renault members.

I don't rule out Alonso as being X completely. It is impossible to rule anybody out, not even you. I just gave very thoroughly many reasons on why it is unlikely that Alonso and X are the same person. I don't mind discussing this if people makes sensible points (much like Muzza did) or like you on this last post. But if all you will say is "I know it was the monobrow :naughty:" in reply to a point I made after spending some effort reading the documents and arguments then of course I won't disucss in those terms.

As for FB, he could (and should) disclose who he thinks is X in order to discredit him. That does not prove that the incident happened at all. Those are two independent things. If somebody mentioned a witness to blame you for homicide you didn't commit, you would try to find out who he was because you know he lied. And if you knew who that witness was you would reveal who he was immediately and start working on the reasons he had to come up with an erroneous testimony against you.

Let's go by part, first of all I didn't call Alonso a monobrow but if I did it just came out naturally and it wasn't my intention for now I just prefer to call him Whistle-blower.

Regarding FB and he revealing who the witness X is, what I meant was if he comes out and says that is Alonso or whoever you want to put in here then it will show that FIA was right I didn't mean him saying who he think it may be in which case he would not discredit anybody because he would not be sure if that is the person or not.

Anyway in the radio transcript for that day you can see that FB didn't care about NPJ until Alonso pitted, right at that moment he order NPJ to push like hell, why he didn't send him to push from the beggining? why he needed to push at that exact moment? they just want to be covered and by saiyng "we told him to push and he was on the limit" or something like that, even when that is not a solid piece of evidence it does show that FB knew about the this and actually it was part of it specially if he doesn't deny it. He didn't try to defend himself enve when he was given the chance, in my country people says "El que calla, otorga" I don't know how to put this in english but he did just this.

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Of course Alonso is not Mr. X because in that case he would be worse than Flavio and FIA wouldn't be able to let him get away with it like that.

It's as simple as that. And secondly if he were Mr. X why would he get a special treatment like staying in the shadow without facing the facts and having a confrontation. Nah, that Mr. X must be an employee in a fragile position or maybe someone famous like Ecclestone or Whiting.

Oh you, Alonso obsessed fans.

BTW, I still think Briatore is a victim of the Piquet Family and Mosley. I hope he is back one day.

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BTW, I still think Briatore is a victim of the Piquet Family and Mosley. I hope he is back one day.

I don't. For me he's lost all credibility with going through with that plan. He should suffer the consequences of his actions.

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Of course Alonso is not Mr. X because in that case he would be worse than Flavio and FIA wouldn't be able to let him get away with it like that.

It's as simple as that. And secondly if he were Mr. X why would he get a special treatment like staying in the shadow without facing the facts and having a confrontation. Nah, that Mr. X must be an employee in a fragile position or maybe someone famous like Ecclestone or Whiting.

Oh you, Alonso obsessed fans.

BTW, I still think Briatore is a victim of the Piquet Family and Mosley. I hope he is back one day.

if you thnk so about FB I recomend you to read this article and see what his friend BE says about it http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090924141110.shtml he enve think that if FB takes this to court he would loose anyway.

About Mr. X Alonso is just an employee and he said he rejected the idea and thought they wouldn'y do it until he saw the crash, taking himself out of the equation, he was offered immunity and that's why he came up clean at the end, with all his points and his win strangely untouched by the FIA.

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About Mr. X Alonso is just an employee and he said he rejected the idea and thought they wouldn'y do it until he saw the crash, taking himself out of the equation, he was offered immunity and that's why he came up clean at the end, with all his points and his win strangely untouched by the FIA.

I think you should send the FIA all that interesting information. unsure.gif

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Of course Alonso is not Mr. X because in that case he would be worse than Flavio and FIA wouldn't be able to let him get away with it like that.

It's as simple as that. And secondly if he were Mr. X why would he get a special treatment like staying in the shadow without facing the facts and having a confrontation. Nah, that Mr. X must be an employee in a fragile position or maybe someone famous like Ecclestone or Whiting.

Oh you, Alonso obsessed fans.

BTW, I still think Briatore is a victim of the Piquet Family and Mosley. I hope he is back one day.

i dont see whatd make him worst than flavio. the people who had the most responsability in all this bs is nels, and he got away with it, theorically. Now, you do think Bernie wouldnt have done smthg bout it if he knew a way to drop Flavio before?

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i dont see whatd make him worst than flavio. the people who had the most responsability in all this bs is nels, and he got away with it, theorically. Now, you do think Bernie wouldnt have done smthg bout it if he knew a way to drop Flavio before?

that's a pretty good point and like I posted before he think that is FB goes to the courts with this case he would loose again, I bet he knows something we don't know and he knows who this Mr. X is.

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He surely knows, and I'm sure he knows a better way to get out of this than court.

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BTW, I still think Briatore is a victim of the Piquet Family and Mosley. I hope he is back one day.

I agree with the first sentence, but not the second. :D

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i dont see whatd make him worst than flavio. the people who had the most responsability in all this bs is nels, and he got away with it, theorically. Now, you do think Bernie wouldnt have done smthg bout it if he knew a way to drop Flavio before?

I don't know. I have no idea of who Mr. X is but if it were Alonso

1) If he knew about the plot before the race he'd have been punished like FB or PS

2) If he knew about the plot after the race then it would be possible that FIA offered him something if he said the truth

But I still don't think he's Mr. X.

secret.gif I would say it's Andres.

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I don't know. I have no idea of who Mr. X is but if it were Alonso

1) If he knew about the plot before the race he'd have been punished like FB or PS

2) If he knew about the plot after the race then it would be possible that FIA offered him something if he said the truth

But I still don't think he's Mr. X.

secret.gif I would say it's Andres.

1) NPJ the one who crashed and obviously knew it before doing it wasn't punished and PS one of the mastermind of this case was offered immunity but he didn't take it (why didn't he? he confessed anyway I thnk he didn't take the immunity to protect FB and Alonso)

2) Mr X. was given not only anonimity but also immunity becasue he is a member of the team who knew about this but he covered it een when he said that he rejected the idea he must have gone to the FIA and say what happened but he didn't, so Mr X just like Alonso was found not to be part of this but just having the knowledge of the case and not reporting it made him guilty, so he was given immunity.

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I don't know. I have no idea of who Mr. X is but if it were Alonso

1) If he knew about the plot before the race he'd have been punished like FB or PS

2) If he knew about the plot after the race then it would be possible that FIA offered him something if he said the truth

But I still don't think he's Mr. X.

secret.gif I would say it's Andres.

why? piquet wasnt. from the point piquet wasn't punished, this is ALL bout getting flavio off, so, whoever said that, it's not of their interest to drop it out.

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1) NPJ the one who crashed and obviously knew it before doing it wasn't punished and PS one of the mastermind of this case was offered immunity but he didn't take it (why didn't he? he confessed anyway I thnk he didn't take the immunity to protect FB and Alonso)

You are officially the leader and appointed messiah of the Alonso cult. Only you have such a faith on his supernatural powers. According to you, the guy not only is behind every single issue in F1. Not only that, but also people who has been in F1 for 30 years with very succesful careers are ready to sacrifice themselves just to protect him. Mosley, LdM, FB, BE are all also planning a whole WSMC strategy and a weird witness X theory just to protect him.

Wow, he must be the most valuable guy in the world! :P

2) Mr X. was given not only anonimity but also immunity becasue he is a member of the team who knew about this but he covered it een when he said that he rejected the idea he must have gone to the FIA and say what happened but he didn't, so Mr X just like Alonso was found not to be part of this but just having the knowledge of the case and not reporting it made him guilty, so he was given immunity.

Errr...nope...that's not what FIA nor Renault found out.

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so Mr X just like Alonso was found not to be part of this but just having the knowledge of the case and not reporting it made him guilty, so he was given immunity.

Doh! Schumi I come back to one of my original points - and one which ultimately on the balance of probability indicates who Witness X is NOT.

Let's assume you are right and Alonso is X - what would be his motive to snitch on Flav/Renault/Pat? I cannot think of a single reason why he would do this? Go on, tell me.

- NPJ had a motive - he had been spurned and wanted to get back at Flav/Renault

- Max had a motive - retribution

- Bernie did not have a motive - he is Flav's business partner; his motive would be to protect (a role I feel he is slipping into now with the talk of an appeal).

- I don't believe Renault HQ had a motive, until this point they seemed OK with Flav

So what motive would Alonso have?

He did not have any issues with Pat/Flav.

If he were X why would he give evidence about something which could blow up in his face? If it came out he would be screwed (and given that Flav knows who X is, if indeed they exist, it would be bound to come out, esp. if Flav appeals/go to court).

He has no need for money.

Knackering Renault would damage his drive.

He has no need for any special favours.

I cannot think of a motive, only reasons for him not to do it. So rather than trip out the same old stuff. Tell me - what was his motive?

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If he were X why would he give evidence about something which could blow up in his face? If it came out he would be screwed (and given that Flav knows who X is, if indeed they exist, it would be bound to come out, esp. if Flav appeals/go to court).

Not that it alters your argument at all but... I just thought I'd point out the X does exist but didn't actually witness anything (he has just been provided by Renault to say that he did) - that's my theory anyway - most sensible way for Renault to get their light sentence and FIA to get Flav while keeping everyone completely in the dark. So He would exist but Flav won't know who he is (unless someone in Renault tells him - which is possible).

My crazy predictions - (life after crashgate)...

X isn't Alonso.

Flav will most likely not sue. He will not start another series either. He will be invited back to a few GP and mix with the paddock folk after that part of his ban is recinded under the next head of FIA circa 2012.

When Symond's ban is over (earlier than the expected 5 years) he will make it back into F1 with Renault's blessing and perhaps assistance but in a token role - something to do with press management perhaps.

Renault will stay in F1 for one more year but will become an engine supplier only in 2011. Their line up will perhaps be Grosjean and Kovi OR a current Toyota driver.

Alonso will go to Ferrari for 2010 UNLESS Kimi ends 4th this year (he's 11.5 points off Webber) - he will beat Massa but they will stay as the Ferrari pair for 2011 too - unless Massa has lost the racing spirit and ends more than 30 points behind Alonso OR Massa never makes it back (I can't predict health).

Jnr will never race in F1 again.

Max will be a regular face around the paddock after he leaves, but never a particularly welcome one. After a while he'll dissappear from everywhere apart from in the press - will probably have his own column.

KERS will survive in 2010 and then further.

Ecclestone will too.

Right - There it is. I'm putting these here so that when none of them come true I can pretend I never wrote them.;)

EDIT - in all honesty, if half of them are right I'll be well chuffed

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