Frank Williams, Is He An Idiot Or What?

[tecnima 0]

You don't get to where Frank Williams has got Williams F1 by being an idiot.

Frank was aware that the Concorde agreement had to be signed, so he signed, all the other teams followed suit in a couple of days BMW did not, now they are finding it difficult to get a place on the grid.

Michael Schumacher testing, there is a testing ban, other drivers had to get in an F1 car with no experiance, MS has years of experiance, + No doubt Ferrari would have taken the oppertunity to test new parts at the same time, so a Testing Ban is just that a Ban on Testing, even for Michael Schumacher.

Rules are Rules, the grid is at it's agreed maximum, this is decided by how TV/Prize money is distributed, this gives the teams the funding to continue, and should not be diluted, just because BMW did not sign when Williams did, or the other teams, they could have signed and sold like Honda did they did not, they made their decision, now they have to live by it. plus 28 cars is to many, we will be back to having cars not qualfying, so not racing.

I am sure if you had thought it out you would have come to the same conclusion, or you are the idiot.

[Schumikonen 2]

You don't get to where Frank Williams has got Williams F1 by being an idiot.

Frank was aware that the Concorde agreement had to be signed, so he signed, all the other teams followed suit in a couple of days BMW did not, now they are finding it difficult to get a place on the grid.

Michael Schumacher testing, there is a testing ban, other drivers had to get in an F1 car with no experiance, MS has years of experiance, + No doubt Ferrari would have taken the oppertunity to test new parts at the same time, so a Testing Ban is just that a Ban on Testing, even for Michael Schumacher.

Rules are Rules, the grid is at it's agreed maximum, this is decided by how TV/Prize money is distributed, this gives the teams the funding to continue, and should not be diluted, just because BMW did not sign when Williams did, or the other teams, they could have signed and sold like Honda did they did not, they made their decision, now they have to live by it. plus 28 cars is to many, we will be back to having cars not qualfying, so not racing.

I am sure if you had thought it out you would have come to the same conclusion, or you are the idiot.

rules are rules, the first rule for posting is to read carefully about the topic FW said:

"If this was Ferrari (who had) somehow retired halfway through a year and wanted to come back, we'd find a way to bend the rules.

so yes he is an idiot, I am another and you are our colleage, welcome aboard.

[wapi 4]

You don't get to where Frank Williams has got Williams F1 by being an idiot.

...

I am sure if you had thought it out you would have come to the same conclusion, or you are the idiot.

well, everyone has "best before" date. His has expired few years ago.

Calling colleague on the forum potential idiot is beyond what I imagine as acceptable tone of conversation here.

[c21 0]

Being "entitled to" and being "able to" is huge difference. His entitlement comes from the fact that FOTA is not regulator, FOTA decision are effectively recommendations. Anyone can play the game of swimming against the FOTA current and suffer some consequences if they wish to do so.

I think it is much worse to have 10 cars being lapped and their only contribution to the race is how much time someone will lose while overtaking those guys. Of course there is always possibility that they'll do something stupid to cause crash that would take out someone that is really racing for some notable result...

Garage: as far as I can remember, garage door is fixed width, so you cannot allocate just a little bit more or less space to the team, you can give them integer number of garage doors.

I for one would prefer more teams, as for the point of having to lap slower cars, cool! it gives the chance for a leading car to be impeded thus allowing maybe a chasing car the opportunity to catch up and maybe have a fight. (like the good old days in the 90s)

The width of a garage from lets say Canada to Shanghai is quite different, they are not all carbon copies of eachother. (although most of the modern garages are quite similar)

plus also the garages are quite often divided up from behind, eg the front of the garage where the cars do not drive out frequently have another team occupying the back half.

[c21 0]

Ah...look who we got here...its C21 C21 C21 C21 C21.....Welcome back!

Hi Abbas! howz tricks?

Just thought I would poke my head around the door and see whats shakin.

[Schumikonen 2]

well, everyone has "best before" date. His has expired few years ago.

Calling colleague on the forum potential idiot is beyond what I imagine as acceptable tone of conversation here.

so you mean that I screwed it up with that answer? I can edit it if if makes you feel better it's not my intention to offend anyone I just don't find that word offensive even when I know it is not a good one, that's why I included myself in that category.

[Silas Talbot 0]

I'm a little late to the game here, but I think the psychology of Frank Williams heavily involves several factors:

#1) He views himself as the last 'true' formula 1 constructor, the only class act left in a sport dominated by corporate greed.

#2) He has had profound differences in the past with several of the top teams, and he holds a bit of a grudge, especially against McLaren and Ferrari who have embraced the culture he so detests (#1) and have been successful over the last 10 years doing so.

#3) Because of this feeling that he and his team are becoming more marginalized, he is attempting to assert himself. He justifies this by figuring that he is fighting for the 'true spirit' of F1 against self-interested enemies, but in truth it stems more from bitterness about being left behind.

I think Sir Frank has a tendency to romanticize himself and his team, and has rationalized a way to wear his current weakened situation in the sport as a badge of honor.

He wants to play the game that McLaren and Ferrari are now playing, but he has been unsuccessful in his attempts and this greatly frustrates him. He is unwilling to relinquish enough control over the operations to satisfy a major partner for very long.

As he grows older he's behaving more like a child, semi-irrationally. Therefore it will be difficult sometimes as we observe his decision-making to pin down any single rational motivation behind it.

I have only come to follow the sport in the last 4 years, so you vets may laugh at my impression of Frank. I have tried to brush up on my history, but I may be over-simplifying things and just picking out the facts that fit my narrative =)

[yurp 0]

I'm a little late to the game here, but I think the psychology of Frank Williams heavily involves several factors:

#1) He views himself as the last 'true' formula 1 constructor, the only class act left in a sport dominated by corporate greed.

#2) He has had profound differences in the past with several of the top teams, and he holds a bit of a grudge, especially against McLaren and Ferrari who have embraced the culture he so detests (#1) and have been successful over the last 10 years doing so.

#3) Because of this feeling that he and his team are becoming more marginalized, he is attempting to assert himself. He justifies this by figuring that he is fighting for the 'true spirit' of F1 against self-interested enemies, but in truth it stems more from bitterness about being left behind.

I think Sir Frank has a tendency to romanticize himself and his team, and has rationalized a way to wear his current weakened situation in the sport as a badge of honor.

He wants to play the game that McLaren and Ferrari are now playing, but he has been unsuccessful in his attempts and this greatly frustrates him. He is unwilling to relinquish enough control over the operations to satisfy a major partner for very long.

As he grows older he's behaving more like a child, semi-irrationally. Therefore it will be difficult sometimes as we observe his decision-making to pin down any single rational motivation behind it.

I have only come to follow the sport in the last 4 years, so you vets may laugh at my impression of Frank. I have tried to brush up on my history, but I may be over-simplifying things and just picking out the facts that fit my narrative =)

A well thought through post. I agree with much of what you've said here. As Frank has gradually become more marginalised in the F1 community, so he has become increasingly vehement in 'sticking to his guns' on all sorts of issues.

In this instance, he's protecting his team's interests - less competition in the middle of the field means potentially more points / money for Williams. McLaren and Ferrari would be doing the same if they felt at all threatened, but since they don't they're happy either way. There are some other teams who would like to follow Frank's lead in this, but aren't independent enough (from FOTA / engine suppliers / FOM etc) to do so.

But you're right - Frank does see himself as the last bastion of true F1 and since his relationship with FOTA soured slightly, he's been digging his heels in and circling the wagons.

[yurp 0]

EDIT: I missed a word in my answer, I wanted to say that I am NOT representing the viewers.

idiot

He means Tomato and Chill sauce of course!

idiot

I am sure if you had thought it out you would have come to the same conclusion, or you are the idiot.

no. you're an idiot

so yes he is an idiot, I am another and you are our colleage, welcome aboard.

IDIOTS

Calling colleague on the forum potential idiot is beyond what I imagine as acceptable tone of conversation here.

WTF? U R AN IDIOT

so you mean that I screwed it up with that answer? I can edit it if if makes you feel better it's not my intention to offend anyone I just don't find that word offensive even when I know it is not a good one, that's why I included myself in that category.

****ING IDIOT

Blah Blah Blahdy Blah.

WTF? LOOK AT THIS d#ck-FACED ****ING IDIOTARD!

[wapi 4]

so you mean that I screwed it up with that answer? I can edit it if if makes you feel better it's not my intention to offend anyone I just don't find that word offensive even when I know it is not a good one, that's why I included myself in that category.

Obviously I was the one who screw up with answer. It was too serious.

Yours was much better.

[Schumikonen 2]

I'm a little late to the game here, but I think the psychology of Frank Williams heavily involves several factors:

#1) He views himself as the last 'true' formula 1 constructor, the only class act left in a sport dominated by corporate greed.

#2) He has had profound differences in the past with several of the top teams, and he holds a bit of a grudge, especially against McLaren and Ferrari who have embraced the culture he so detests (#1) and have been successful over the last 10 years doing so.

#3) Because of this feeling that he and his team are becoming more marginalized, he is attempting to assert himself. He justifies this by figuring that he is fighting for the 'true spirit' of F1 against self-interested enemies, but in truth it stems more from bitterness about being left behind.

I think Sir Frank has a tendency to romanticize himself and his team, and has rationalized a way to wear his current weakened situation in the sport as a badge of honor.

He wants to play the game that McLaren and Ferrari are now playing, but he has been unsuccessful in his attempts and this greatly frustrates him. He is unwilling to relinquish enough control over the operations to satisfy a major partner for very long.

As he grows older he's behaving more like a child, semi-irrationally. Therefore it will be difficult sometimes as we observe his decision-making to pin down any single rational motivation behind it.

I have only come to follow the sport in the last 4 years, so you vets may laugh at my impression of Frank. I have tried to brush up on my history, but I may be over-simplifying things and just picking out the facts that fit my narrative =)

This is a great post, you made me go back to the times when he had the best team, and for a momment I could see him as a hero but I still think that if he continue to do this he will be taking his team out of competition and I that's something I don't want to happen just like I don't don't want to see Sauber out of F1 eather.

[monza gorilla 1]

Ok. I can see your point. But Frank needs to find a happy medium in looking out for his team, and protecting the interests of F1 as a sport in general. Its fine to keep disagreeing, but ultimately will lead to there being no team for Frank to protect. In this kind of situation there is a time to stand up and be counted, and there is a time to roll with the punches. Instead of directly opposing any idea/rule/itinerary, why not discuss the reasons for not being in favour for the above, get his opinion across and even if he is out-voted, ultimately the seed has been planted for others to think upon.

I don't particularly like the man, but he is a visionary.

There's no such thing as a happy medium (all those voices in the head). FOTA need someone who disagrees with everything, as does any committee. Stops you rushing into things without thinking. Which is what you said. I'll get me coat.

[Kopite Girl 0]

There's no such thing as a happy medium (all those voices in the head). FOTA need someone who disagrees with everything, as does any committee. Stops you rushing into things without thinking. Which is what you said. I'll get me coat.

Hi Russ!

Perhaps you're right. I guess in F1 its all or nothing.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I didn't bother to read anyone's post after the OP, so apologies to the brilliance that I missed. Sir Frank isn't an idiot nor is he crazy. I'll explain, point by point why he might have the views you've pointed out.

support FOTA in the cap budge affair.

Considering most of the teams have big manufacturers behind them that can easily work around the budget cap (and Williams would be throttled by it without any such advantage), agreeing to this would put Williams at a severe disadvantage. Sure, he's already outspent by most teams, but at least without a cap there's hope he can increase his development budget. Having no budget cap, oddly enough, is more fair than having a cap (unless you force the manufacturers out of team ownership, but what would you do with moneybags like Matesh!ts?)

Michael Schumacher testing the new car.

He's abiding by the rules here. Are you saying that playing by the rules is being an idiot or a black sheep?

a third car per team next season.

now he is opposing to a 14th team in the grid for next year.

Both of these are tied to the TV revenue each teams get that depends on their standings in the championship. Giving the option of a third car helps the richer teams and disadvantages the poorer ones. That third car also would give a loophole in the testing ban for the richer teams. In a franchise situation that exists in F1 right now, that wouldn't be fair. If another team enters the mix, there's one more person to divide the spoils with.

Believe it or not, Williams is the only one who is consistently on the side of the rules and fairness in this particular negotiation.

[Schumikonen 2]

I didn't bother to read anyone's post after the OP, so apologies to the brilliance that I missed. Sir Frank isn't an idiot nor is he crazy. I'll explain, point by point why he might have the views you've pointed out.

Considering most of the teams have big manufacturers behind them that can easily work around the budget cap (and Williams would be throttled by it without any such advantage), agreeing to this would put Williams at a severe disadvantage. Sure, he's already outspent by most teams, but at least without a cap there's hope he can increase his development budget. Having no budget cap, oddly enough, is more fair than having a cap (unless you force the manufacturers out of team ownership, but what would you do with moneybags like Matesh!ts?)

He's abiding by the rules here. Are you saying that playing by the rules is being an idiot or a black sheep?

Both of these are tied to the TV revenue each teams get that depends on their standings in the championship. Giving the option of a third car helps the richer teams and disadvantages the poorer ones. That third car also would give a loophole in the testing ban for the richer teams. In a franchise situation that exists in F1 right now, that wouldn't be fair. If another team enters the mix, there's one more person to divide the spoils with.

Believe it or not, Williams is the only one who is consistently on the side of the rules and fairness in this particular negotiation.

In the budge cap he was on favor of it and opposing FOTA

You said that he is abiding by the rules but he, himself said and (I posted it here) something like this "if Ferrari was the one fighting for a 14th place on the grid, we (including him) will find a way to bend the rules" and if he thiink and talk like that, then I am not going to by that one about the abiding by rules and this will takes us directly to the 14th team topic as this comment from Frank tells me that his is not just thinking about the money because he is willing to do "something" for Ferrari (and even share the spoils with them like you said) but not for BMW.

[wapi 4]

Sooner or later it will happen. What goes around comes around. At some point FW will need agreement of the others and they will say "Sorry Frank, you know, rules. Sorry."

In this particular case 26 or 28 are equally ridiculous numbers. At least 10 cars are beyond hope of scoring even single point so they are just slow moving obstacles on the track. What is the point in having so many losers on the grid? Does anyone miss Spyker? At the same time they are denying place on the grid for a team that scored something in the last 3 years.

In the last 3 seasons:

BMW 268 points

Williams 93.5 points

It is obvious that motive is not "rules" but desire to eliminate competition.

[Jean Todt 4]

Sooner or later it will happen. What goes around comes around. At some point FW will need agreement of the others and they will say "Sorry Frank, you know, rules. Sorry."

In this particular case 26 or 28 are equally ridiculous numbers. At least 10 cars are beyond hope of scoring even single point so they are just slow moving obstacles on the track. What is the point in having so many losers on the grid? Does anyone miss Spyker? At the same time they are denying place on the grid for a team that scored something in the last 3 years.

In the last 3 seasons:

BMW 268 points

Williams 93.5 points

It is obvious that motive is not "rules" but desire to eliminate competition.

Not intending to argue with you but, Williams are world champions regardless of the fact that they didn't do well for the past few years.....Ferrari even before Schumi stepped in were very important to F1.

Frank has made it no secrete about that motivation in the past, he said he already has the trouble competing against two Mclarens, and if Prodrive entered using the cars identical to Mclaren he is only going to have double the problems..Which is why he was fiercely against Customer cars.

[Schumikonen 2]

Sooner or later it will happen. What goes around comes around. At some point FW will need agreement of the others and they will say "Sorry Frank, you know, rules. Sorry."

In this particular case 26 or 28 are equally ridiculous numbers. At least 10 cars are beyond hope of scoring even single point so they are just slow moving obstacles on the track. What is the point in having so many losers on the grid? Does anyone miss Spyker? At the same time they are denying place on the grid for a team that scored something in the last 3 years.

In the last 3 seasons:

BMW 268 points

Williams 93.5 points

It is obvious that motive is not "rules" but desire to eliminate competition.

That's exactly why I wonder if he is an idiot or not, he got to think that someday he may need "a favour" form the rest and it won't be granted and it may be one for the survival of his team, I think he actitud will take his team out of F1.

[Autumnpuma 0]

In the budge cap he was on favor of it and opposing FOTA

See what I get for jumping in without my swimtrunks? It was my understanding that the teams were agreeing that some kind of budget cap is needed to bring costs down. I assumed Sir Frank would oppose this, but apparently I've been thinking deeper of the consequences of it than he has.

You said that he is abiding by the rules but he, himself said and (I posted it here) something like this "if Ferrari was the one fighting for a 14th place on the grid, we (including him) will find a way to bend the rules" and if he thiink and talk like that, then I am not going to by that one about the abiding by rules and this will takes us directly to the 14th team topic as this comment from Frank tells me that his is not just thinking about the money because he is willing to do "something" for Ferrari (and even share the spoils with them like you said) but not for BMW.

Ferrari are a major reason that a good chunk of the world tune into F1. Frank is looking at F1 as a whole when making a statement about Ferrari being included as a 14th team. The logic being that bending the rules to allow Ferrari in would greatly increase the viewership of F1 as a whole. BMW not so much. You'll find, Shumikonen, that a great many rules in F1 are bent in favor of the single most famous racing marque in history...and I can't really argue against that.

[Schumikonen 2]

See what I get for jumping in without my swimtrunks? It was my understanding that the teams were agreeing that some kind of budget cap is needed to bring costs down. I assumed Sir Frank would oppose this, but apparently I've been thinking deeper of the consequences of it than he has.

Ferrari are a major reason that a good chunk of the world tune into F1. Frank is looking at F1 as a whole when making a statement about Ferrari being included as a 14th team. The logic being that bending the rules to allow Ferrari in would greatly increase the viewership of F1 as a whole. BMW not so much. You'll find, Shumikonen, that a great many rules in F1 are bent in favor of the single most famous racing marque in history...and I can't really argue against that.

but wouldn't Schumi's return bring a lot more viewers and a greater interest in the sport, being this tranlated into more money for everyone in F1? I understand what you say and it makes sense, but when I compare it to the Schumi test case and the viewers/money that this could bring to F1 and FW opossing to it, it makes me think that there could be another reason and that he is not just thinking about money and it looks like he has a particular reason for every particular case, maybe my problem is that have been looking for a single reason for all the cases.

[monza gorilla 1]

Where would the garage for the 14th team be? Because of the space restrictions you'd be looking at pre qualification again, if there were more teams.

[Quiet One 15]

Where would the garage for the 14th team be? Because of the space restrictions you'd be looking at pre qualification again, if there were more teams.

I propose a pre qualifying to see who gets a garage. Like the old times, only that it will be for a garage place instead for a qualy place. Of course, you'll need a garage for the pre qualifying race. So I've come up with an even better idea (I'm inspired today). Team principals should race on foot to determine who gets a pit position.

Renault would be in a much better position this year, as Bob Bell is in obviously better shape than Briatore. I expect Whitmarsh to struggle unless on a very light load. Mario Theissen will certainly be near the fron unless he decided to march like a wermacht soldier which will probably cost him some seconds on twisty tracks as he does all sorts of weird stes to change direction. Ross Brawn will benefit of finding a loophole that will allow him to use a bike. Christian Horner has the youth and physical condition on his side, not to mention than a couple of Red Bull drinks will have him running for the loo faster than anybody else.

It will be an interesting season, without a doubt.

[monza gorilla 1]

John Howett probably best stay at home, then.

[Quiet One 15]

John Howett probably best stay at home, then.

But Frank Williams rolling down the Casino will be a sight to behold!

[wapi 4]

Where would the garage for the 14th team be? Because of the space restrictions you'd be looking at pre qualification again, if there were more teams.

I assume that FIA is more knowledgeable about garage space than we are. Since 14th team is their idea, it should not be a problem.