dribbler

Pneumatic Valve Technology

11 posts in this topic

Was thinking today; surely a pneumatic valves system on an F1 engine removes the need for a mechanically driven camshaft, therefore liberating more power. I know that this is not the only reason it is used; valve springs are notoriously unreliable when having to accept the demands of 18,000rpm.

What are the drawbacks to this technology being used in road car engines? Would a compressor really present too large a packaging issue? Wouldn't the savings in fuel economy off-set this?

Please tell me what I'm missing. Does anyone understand? Hello?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The current engines still use cams. The pneumatic part of the system just returns the valve to the closed position. Renault did have plans for an electro hydraulic set up without cams, using the onboard hydraulic system but couldn't make it reliable. It does give infinitely variable valve timing though, which is quite exciting. If you could guarantee reliability then I suppose it would be applicable to road cars, but I think for now a spring is more trustworthy than a pressurised system.

valvesystem1.jpg

Pneumatic system

renault_electro-hydraulic_valve_1.jpg

Electro hydraulic system

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Splendid info, thanks Russ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentlemen,

Please remember that this is a Formula One forum so stop spamming us with your penis enlargement systems and such.

If you do not have anything useful to contribute then you may join any other forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a nut shell, pneumatics is too bulky, due to the pressure of the system having to be reasonably low (say 110psi or so), but needing to do the same work as a spring able to produce much higher pressure, or a hydraulic system that can easily handle 3000psi. For a 110psi system do the same work as a 3000psi hydraulic system, then the surface area that the pneumatic system must work on has to be three times as large (3x 110psi = 3300psi), hence things get bigger.

Plus pneumatic systems are notoriously bad for sealing. Hydraulics can leak, yet still work as most systems are designed to work at only 90%, or even as low as 80% of maximum...a small leak might only drop oil pressures by 5%. Pneumatics seems, in my experience with them on trucks, trailers, and rail infrastructure equipment I design and work on day in day out, not to have the same work arounds in this regard - think a pin prick in a balloon and trying to keep it inflated.

The best pneumatic system ever used by man thus far would be a triple expansion steam engine. The system is still pneumatic in nature (using steam gas)...but to get the horsepower, those engines were massive in size.

Pneumatics have their place for quick actuation of levers and what not, but in all instances the size needed for pneumatics is greater than that for hydraulics, hence no good for race cars, and probably not viable on a road car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentlemen,

Please remember that this is a Formula One forum so stop spamming us with your penis enlargement systems and such.

If you do not have anything useful to contribute then you may join any other forum.

You're not interested in abigger penis then? Could off-set the hair loss thing quite nicely....

In a nut shell, pneumatics is too bulky, due to the pressure of the system having to be reasonably low (say 110psi or so), but needing to do the same work as a spring able to produce much higher pressure, or a hydraulic system that can easily handle 3000psi. For a 110psi system do the same work as a 3000psi hydraulic system, then the surface area that the pneumatic system must work on has to be three times as large (3x 110psi = 3300psi), hence things get bigger.

Plus pneumatic systems are notoriously bad for sealing. Hydraulics can leak, yet still work as most systems are designed to work at only 90%, or even as low as 80% of maximum...a small leak might only drop oil pressures by 5%. Pneumatics seems, in my experience with them on trucks, trailers, and rail infrastructure equipment I design and work on day in day out, not to have the same work arounds in this regard - think a pin prick in a balloon and trying to keep it inflated.

The best pneumatic system ever used by man thus far would be a triple expansion steam engine. The system is still pneumatic in nature (using steam gas)...but to get the horsepower, those engines were massive in size.

Pneumatics have their place for quick actuation of levers and what not, but in all instances the size needed for pneumatics is greater than that for hydraulics, hence no good for race cars, and probably not viable on a road car.

More splendid info. Thanks, sheep fiddler Craig.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

does this penis enlargement systems really works? where do you put the stuff ? can you show it on a cucumber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pneumatic valve springs gave Renault an advantage with its turbocharged engines, often said to be the most powerful. However, reliability and poor handling of their chassis kept the cars from success until 1989 when Renault provided Williams with its V10 engine to begin a winning streak.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Fiat is using electro-hydraulic variable valve actuation technology on the intake side in their Multiair engines.

And Koenigsegg is one of the few high performance (atm) car manufacturer working on Pneumatic Valve tech for their future cars. Many forum cowboys are already saying it will be impossible for them with the resources they have, but they have proved their critics wrong in the past.

http://performancedrive.com.au/koenigsegg-developing-camless-engine-with-pneumatic-valvetrain-report/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simple reason would be cost and reliability.

Cost : If the engines are not designed to rev >11k rpm, A pneumatic system would not really add much performance gain compared to boring old springs. To extract the advantage of a pneumatic systems the engine should be designed to rev higher, which would entail a stiffer block, exotic reciprocating parts, extensive water and oil cooling and significant concessions where emissions are concerned (burning 3 kg of RON 100 per 4-5 km). In short, from a cost standpoint I doubt a consumer would be prepared to shell out much for such an expensive system that requires careful monitoring during its operation. It would be much easier and more practical to just turbocharge the engine (improving efficiency by charging and cooling the air) and getting similar torque figures at lower rpms.

Reliability: I doubt people would want to subject their cars to a shorter servicing cycle due to the extreme pressures put upon the components of the engine. If anything, the public today would rather prefer longer periods in between services. We compare a pneumatic system that contains a pressure vessel, lines, compressor, sensors, electronic control unit, actuators to the alternative - springs. Less things to go wrong there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

timberland pro work boots adidas store north face outlet pandora bracelet charms nike outlet online oakley sunglasses for men adidas yeezy boost nike clearance air max 97 silver bullet pandora longchamp nike sneakersferragamo belt ecco shoes for men michael kors handbags christian louboutin shoes yeezy boost moncler outletmoncler jackets birkenstock sandals fitflop pandora jewelry 70 off clearance pandora jewelry red bottom retro 13timberlands mcm backpack timberland outlet adidas nmd fitflops oakley sunglasses birkenstock outlet fitflops adidas running shoes coach outlet air max 270 nike factory nike outlet store nike air max 97 puma tory burch sale pandora charms pandora harden shoes pandora jewelry adidas sneakers uggs clearance moncler jackets adidas store nike outlet store online shopping michael kors outlet red bottoms retro 12 adidas adidas ultra boost canada goose clothing nike shoes outlet mbt shoes canadian goose jacket ugg slippers retro 12 michael kors handbags superstar shoes cheap oakley sunglasses adidas boost adidas nmd timberland boots pandora charms soccer cleats louboutin shoes jordan sneakers nike vapor max flyknit nike outlet online pandora rings official site jordan retro 11 michael kors handbags coach handbags air max 97 south beach adidas shoes adidas store nike uk ralph lauren polo nike outlet store online shopping pandora bracelet pandora charms yeezy adidas ray ban glasses retro 12 nike outlet store onlineray ban sunglasses pandora jewelry official site air max 95 neon pandora jewelry adidas sneakers nike uk birkenstock outlet stores pandora jewelry official site nike vapor max plus nike outlet store online shopping birkenstock sandalsbirkenstock shoes pandora charms yeezy shoes polo ralph lauren outlet north outlet online michael kors outlet onlinefitflops sale clearance tory burch sandals nike shoes for women christian louboutin outlet tory burch outlet ysl handbags adidas superstar shoes soccer cleats jordan 14 pandora christian louboutin adidas yeezy ray ban eyeglassesadidas yeezy boost bottega veneta handbags puma outlet mcm backpack philipp plein nike vapor max flyknittimberland shoes yeezy sneakers adidas yeezy boost oakley eyeglasses kate spade outlet online michael kors handbags valentino nike clearance coach outlet ultra boost air jordan 10 pandora charms jordan 4 curry 5 pandora jewelry official site pandora jewelry official site nike air max 95 pandora jewelry ugg shoes salvatore ferragamo nike air vapormax flyknit nike uk adidas outlet air max 270 balenciaga sneakers nike sneakers retro 11 canada goose outlettimberland timberland yeezy moncler jackets adidas outlet nike air max birkenstock outlet red bottom shoesbirkenstock shoes nike sneakers timberland boots coach outlet kate spade purses birkenstock sandals fit flops oakley eyeglasses yeezy boost nike outlet store timberland pro work boots birkenstock outlet bottega veneta outlet pandora charms sale clearance nike outlet pandora charms sale clearance ecco shoes for women pandora jewelry official siteretro 11 coach outlet store retro 13 yeezy birkenstock sandals pandora bracelet timberland boots curry 5 michael kors outlet online yeezy oakley sunglasses moncler jackets nike shoes philipp plein cleats cheap nike shoes balenciaga nike soccer cleats pandora charms north face jackets clearance red bottom shoes canada goose sale ecco shoes for women timberland outlet nike outlet store nike factory store adidas yeezy louboutin nike store adidas soccer pandora jewelry jordan 10 air vapor max nike factory nike clearance adidas yeezy boost air jordan 14 jordan shoes adidas yeezy north face coats kate spade sale air max 98 harden shoes puma shoes louboutin shoes ultra boost oakleyfitflops nike nike shoes pandora jewelry official site coach outlet ysl handbags ray-ban sunglasses sale adidas outlet online nike air max 270 nike outlet store nike shoes uggs boots women coach factory outlet pandora outlet jordans sneakers moncler jackets nike outlet online fit flops for women kate spade ecco shoes for men retro 11 coach rayban sunglasses michael kors handbags pandora jewellery timberland outlet birkenstock sandals retro 13 uggs official sitered bottom shoes christian louboutin ray ban eyeglasses adidas nmd r1 jordan retro 11 birkenstock sandals jordan 8timberland yeezy shoes adidas shoes for women uggs official site nmd r1 fitflops pandora jewelry timberland boots for men pandora mbt pandora pandora jewelry timberland boots oakley glasses birkenstocks red bottom coach outlet uggs official site fitflops sale kate spade handbags nike roshe air max 2018 nike factory uggs boots nike air max 2018 adidas yeezy pandora jewelry nike air max 270 adidas shoes nike outlet nike outlet store online adidas canada goose jackets pandora cyber monday deals pandora charms cyber monday north face jackets black friday michael kors black friday pandora jewelry black friday coach handbags black friday pandora jewelry black friday deals michael kors black friday deals canada goose clothing pandora jewelry black friday coach cyber monday coach black friday deals north face black friday coach black friday sale 2018 michael kors cyber monday canada goose jacket michael kors cyber monday ugg slippers coach cyber monday canada goose outlet north face cyber monday 2018.0919W

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now