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KoolMonkey

So dive bombing is now a legit move!?

87 posts in this topic

I'm the past I'd be livid. But the love for F1 is waining so honestly I don't really care much anymore.

However I'm struck by how the same drivers, especially MAX, BOTTAS and KVYAT are seemingly always in incidents causing contact with other cars.

Max diving bombing inside Kimi on turn one! How can this sh*t be tollerated again and again!?

It's not the old guard who are causing these incidents. It's the children who are. We've seen all the experienced old hands have wonderful racing overtakes, wheel to wheel around turns and not have contact.

If you look at these incidents in isolation you could said it's a racing incident. But look at them all together, you see a pattern. Dive bombing is now apparently a totally legit overtaking move. Come in too hot and fast, smash into the other drivers, and bleat out that they turned in on you. It's basically diplomatic immunity isn't it.

If I wasn't so over F1 already, I'd be honestly livid and over it. Once again another race ruined by some little f**kwit who seems to think everyone ahead of them has to magically vanish and disappear.

Bad form from Charlie, but he's a toothless git anyway. Dive bombing has to be eliminated. But it won't. Max will be applauded and the phony show will go on as normal.

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I had no problem with Verstappen's move on the first corner of the first lap. It was Vettel's turn in that caused the accident, not Verstappen's inside dive. Some of Verstappen's other moves were questionable, but he is probably not going to learn until he gets into a big accident. As they say, there are old drivers and bold drivers, but no old bold drivers.

Interestingly, Vettel was pretty clear after the race that he did not think that this was something that the stewards needed to patrol. His stated that they were not in kindergarten.

 

Edited by Ruslan

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1 hour ago, Ruslan said:

I had no problem with Verstappen's move on the first corner of the first lap. It was Vettel's turn in that caused the accident, not Verstappen's inside dive. Some of Verstappen's other moves were questionable, but he is probably not going to learn until he gets into a big accident. As they say, there are old drivers and bold drivers, but no old bold drivers.

Interestingly, Vettel was pretty clear after the race that he did not think that this was something that the stewards needed to patrol. His stated that they were not in kindergarten.

 

What are u nuts???????????

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Saw it. First lap, first corner, you sort of expect these things. Not sure exactly what your issues are with it. There was enough space between him and Raikonnen so that they did not collide (until Vettel turned in on Raikonnen).

 

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Really? I haven't seen the race yet but read about the incidents and they make it sound like verstappen was "just there" and the victim in all this. I've always though verstappen has pushed the boundaries of what's acceptable or not.

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11 minutes ago, Emmcee said:

Really? I haven't seen the race yet but read about the incidents and they make it sound like verstappen was "just there" and the victim in all this. I've always though verstappen has pushed the boundaries of what's acceptable or not.

https://twitter.com/Gianludale27

Scroll down to the The incident at turn 1 from 4 different angles #BelgianGp #Raikkonen #Vettel #Verstappen

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1 hour ago, Ruslan said:

Saw it. First lap, first corner, you sort of expect these things. Not sure exactly what your issues are with it. There was enough space between him and Raikonnen so that they did not collide (until Vettel turned in on Raikonnen).

 

I think that the point here is that had they all behaved according to the rules, or better to the way that the rules have been applied in the past to other drivers, Verstappen shouldn't have been there in the first place and if that was the case Kimi would have been able to kiss the apex and nothing would have happened. Vettel was ahead, as far as he knew he had left plenty of space for Kimi, the only one of this three who did something wrong was Max (he tried a move that could have never worked out + he was outside of the white lines): I can agree that it was only a very minor offence and that these things can happen but IMHO if we really have to apportion any blame the Max is the guilty one.

What he did after that was on a different league. In the good old days they had a very simple way of dealing with such problems: someone would have put him against a barrier at the first occasion. Sadly nowdays F1 no longer allows this and we'll have to endure Max's antics for a long time, i.e. until some other sponsor will want his driver/cars to be allowed to win even if that means cutting a few corners.

Sic transit gloria mundi... :rolleyes:

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7 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Nevermind that, what about the fool brake-testing Kimi in a fast drs zone. How does he get away with stuff like that!!!!

That was nuts. He only moved after Kimi committed. We've see a few drivers now doing more than one move to defend. Once again Whiting missing on these incidents, but ready to penalize the stupid ones. Like for instance Nico in Germany, yet when Massa gets pushed wide.... nothing.

Brundle put it about as correct as I think it will get. This is how Max drives. That's not a free pass to do as you like, but seemingly so far it is.

Publius, you are correct in that Max should not have been in that position in the first place. But we've seen in happan all year, as well as with Kvyat too.

As a Ferrari fan this is beyond exhasperating. Kimi might not have beaten Nico, but he very rarely ever gets a clean race nowdays sadly. Of all the tracks, of all the times, this was the one I'd hope he'd get a clean go at.

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5 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

https://twitter.com/Gianludale27

Scroll down to the The incident at turn 1 from 4 different angles #BelgianGp #Raikkonen #Vettel #Verstappen

That's just brain dead, for max not expecting them to turn in is just stupid and that's why I class hills and Villeneuves move in the past just stupid as you have to expect schumi to turn in. Same applies here, both Ferrari's arnt just going to turn the other way, they had track position there for verstappen has to expect them to turn in, common sense. Like I said before, this isn't the first time Max has been over aggressive, I hear people talking about him brake testing  kimi, wouldn't surprise me.

Edited by Emmcee

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6 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

...Vettel was ahead, as far as he knew he had left plenty of space for Kimi, the only one of this three who did something wrong was Max (he tried a move that could have never worked out + he was outside of the white lines):

Interesting. The U.S. broadcast team (David Hobbs and Steve Matchett) originally entirely blamed Verstappen. Before the end of the race, they were blaming Vettel. It was interesting to watch them change their minds as they reviewed the tapes. It looked to me from the start that it was Vettel mistake.

They also recorded the conversation during the Red Flag period between Max, Steve Horner and some other engineers, and Steve Horner assured Max that it was Vettel's fault.

Edited by Ruslan

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1 hour ago, Ruslan said:

They also recorded the conversation during the Red Flag period between Max, Steve Horner and some other engineers, and Steve Horner assured Max that it was Vettel's fault.

I heard that too but I'm biased on this one because hearing Horner on the subject reminded of my many colleagues who tell their clients that have stole money from their children that they did nothing wrong and if a judge finds them guilty it's all the judge's or their childrens' fault

Edited by Publius Cornelius Scipio

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At the end of the day you have to just turn in. You can't just run straight because a car is there. If people have ever races competitively they will know, you have to turn in at some point wether a car is there or not, that's the reality in it. That's where exeperience comes in, a more experienced driver would've been able to see ahead, what would happen if he stuck his nose in there. It's simply an inexperienced mistake but I do find it how easily Vettel is to blame by redbull compared to the past. I find Vettel ATM a very frustrated man and finds any excuse to vent it also.

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The tone of Horner speaking to Max during the red flag period was telling. He was in a very nice gentle way, essentially telling Max his version of what happened was wrong. Kimi did NOT turn in on him. He turned to go around the corner. Max should not have been there period.

Vettel is no mug. All the well established drivers, Alonso, Button, Hamilton, Kimi, Vettel etc. have shown their race craft in being able to go wheel to wheel and not make contact. Over takes on corners and so on.

But the young guys have not shown this. That's the problem. Not only do they not have this fine race craft and decision making abilities, they immediately blame the guy they hit as being the cause of it.

A drunk guy goes and coward punches an innocent bystander. Yet the drunk prick then claims the other guy head butted his fist! That's what's going on with these guys.

I put it to everyone here simply this. If Max was no there, regardless of whether they like Vettel or Red Bull or not, do you honestly think he would have made contact with Kimi? Contact only occurred because Max was where he should not have been. And just like Kvyat in the past, the Ferrari's, both of them come of second best due to some young hot head in the #2 Red Bull car.

The ONLY enjoyable thing about the race was the great weather, packed to the hilt grandstands and the scenery. One of the better looking Spa weekends in recent memory. I forced myself to watch the race after the first corner incident. Not sure why I bothered. Max then proceded to screw Kimi two more times. Once by the dangerous swerve and brake check, and then by running him wide into the run off area.

Back to my original point though. Horner had a job to do. He had to calm down Max. And seeing as how Max has red mist goggles on and just like Perez and Kvyat where NOTHING is ever his fault, he used Vettel as a little punching back at that moment in time. Vettel was NOT the cause of the contact. He did make contact, but that's not the same thing.

So what will it take to cut Max down to size? This kid might have the biggest ego I've ever seen, ever. With Aryton he at least had an aura with him as well. With Max it's ego and arrogance. I'm not feeling any aura, accept keep the F*CK away from him at all times.

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From what I've seen of the footage I totally agree except Komi did turn in on him because he had to, otherwise it would've compromised his line. Did kimi think Max was there? No I don't think so others kimi would've turned away and turned back in and if there was impact then, there is nothing that could've avoided it. Like I said earlier, just max not having the experience there to sort of "read" what will happen. Blame is totally at Max's door and until he can accepted he had made I mistake I will not have respect for him. He is bloody quick but that doesn't gain automatic respect if you can't admit fault.

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Ahh I see, my mistake I thought kimi was on the outside but it was Vettel. Please excuse as I had not looked at the footage correctly but now I have I still feel that VETTEL still had to turn in or risk loosing the chance to gain a position, he simply had to. Kimi was just doing his own thing, but still blame verstappen there though. Maybe Seb might realise now that webber had right of way in Turkey 2010

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9 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

I heard that too but I'm biased on this one because hearing Horner on the subject reminded of my many colleagues who tell their clients that have stole money from their children that they did nothing wrong and if a judge finds them guilty it's all the judge's or their childrens' fault

Hey, Horner spews out the BS with the best of them, so I don't take that seriously. On the other hand, I do take Hobbs and Matchett seriously, and they concluded that Vettel was at fault after initially blaming Verstappen.

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4 hours ago, Emmcee said:

...I still feel that VETTEL still had to turn in or risk loosing the chance to gain a position, he simply had to....

So now you are arguing that Vettel deliberately hit his teammate....but had the right to?

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1 hour ago, Ruslan said:

Hobbs and Matchett ... concluded that Vettel was at fault after initially blaming Verstappen.

what are they suggesting that Vettel should have done? :unsure: go to the pub rather than start the race? :beer: 

he had cleared both Verstappen (who was way behind when they hit the brakes and therefore was not in a position to challenge either of the Ferraris) and Kimi, he left plenty of room for Kimi, what are Hobbs and Matchett suggesting that Vettel should have done if they take offence at the fact that Vettel took the turn? :huh: 

how was Vettel supposed to know that Verstappen was seeing red with rage for having screwed the start :furious: and was coming inside Kimi "like a Verstappen" :boxing: (father and son)? 

I hope that David Hobbs isn't suggesting that Vettel could have seen what was happening behind him apart from the front spoiler of Kimi's car because if that's what he says then someone should remind him that F1 cars in 2016 are very different from the ones that he used to drive back in 1974, and side and rear visibility is an area where F1 cars have gone backwards and not forward, a driver nowadays has a very limited view of what is happening around his car (lower racing position, HANS, head protections, etc) 

the guy has a right to race like everyone else, what he did is 100% legit

Edited by Publius Cornelius Scipio

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He could have given Kimi a lot more space (my suggestion, not Hobbs). He sliced across the line pretty much like there was no one else racing. This was the first corner of the first lap.

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1 hour ago, Ruslan said:

He could have given Kimi a lot more space (my suggestion, not Hobbs). He sliced across the line pretty much like there was no one else racing. This was the first corner of the first lap.

it looks to me that Vettel left more than enough space for one car on his inside, it's a very tight turn, taking it wider than Vettel did means handing over several positions to the drivers behind, in that situation it's not Vettel who had to back off, it was Verstappen. And this is certainly no big deal, accident like this happen all the time, but if someone was to blame it wasn't Vettel (whos only fault was to have had a very good start) but rather Verstappen

1920911-40413705-2560-1440.jpg

Edited by Publius Cornelius Scipio

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6 hours ago, Ruslan said:

So now you are arguing that Vettel deliberately hit his teammate....but had the right to?

Are you reading my posts correctly? I never said that but you do have to turn in, it's simple as if your teammate is there well tuff. You have to turn in otherwise your of the track. It's sort of like playing chicken, you have to not back out but if the other driver thinks the same then that's a collision. Vettel also being the driver he is, even if he knew contact was going to happen do you really think he would back out? With the chance he could gain a position? No I think not.

Edited by Emmcee

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4 hours ago, Publius Cornelius Scipio said:

it looks to me that Vettel left more than enough space for one car on his inside, it's a very tight turn, taking it wider than Vettel did means handing over several positions to the drivers behind, in that situation it's not Vettel who had to back off, it was Verstappen. And this is certainly no big deal, accident like this happen all the time, but if someone was to blame it wasn't Vettel (whos only fault was to have had a very good start) but rather Verstappen

1920911-40413705-2560-1440.jpg

Well...looking at the picture, I see only one car on his inside on the track !!! Verstappen is pretty much tucked up almost completely on the curve. Looks to me like Vettel did not leave enough room.

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